A question on banner of devastation and other things DA

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**kaapelikala**

jegsar wrote:
Your forgetting that it stated "Boltgun" referring to a specific weapon not "Boltguns" referring to a category of weapons.

I forgot a sarcastic smiley.

Also by fluff an autocannon is not a bolt weapon. It is a large gun as opposed to a bolter being a small rocket launcher.

**jegsar**

we don't use full, It is under the "Boltguns" section in the BRB

**tidalwake**

This argument seems asinine to me. USR's are there so that they don't have to create an entry for every separate combination of weapon that could exist. A twin-linked boltgun is a boltgun that has been given the twin linked USR. It uses the same profile as a boltgun and the first sentence for twin-linked in the BRB page 43 says "A weapon with the Twin-linked special rule counts as a single weapon of that type..." So a twin linked boltgun counts as a single boltgun in all respects except that it rerolls failed hits because of the USR attached to it.

**jegsar**

We are talking about autocannons now and things under the "Boltguns" section. Where i stand on that is that they are of the category "Boltguns" but are not in fact a "Boltgun".

**DeathReaper**

jegsar wrote:
We are talking about autocannons now and things under the "Boltguns" section. Where i stand on that is that they are of the category "Boltguns" but are not in fact a "Boltgun".

But isn't everything in that section a Boltgun, by virtue of Boltguns being the plural of Boltgun?

If the banner says Boltgun they are most likely talking about the one weapon known as a Boltgun. If they said boltgun then it is likely that they are talking about the entire section of boltguns.

How is it worded exactly, is it Boltgun or boltgun?

**Cryogen**

"... all friendly Codex: Dark Angels units within 6" of the standard treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons"

Lower case b.

My personal opinion is that it very definitely affects boltguns, twinlinked boltguns, and combi-weapons. I also believe it affects Hurricane bolters, but I wouldn't be THAT surprised if it was FAQ'd off of those.

**jegsar**

I think everyone agrees at this point with that list.

**Steelmage99**

IMO, a Boltgun is any weapon that requires you to look at the Boltgun profile for the stats.

This includes Twinlinked Boltguns, Combi-weapons, standard Boltguns and Hurricane Bolters.

**Matt.Kingsley**

The guys at my local GW say that it works on Combi-wepon Bolters, Bolters and Twin-linked bolters.

The are unsure on Hurricane Bolters, but as the rules for it say it's 3 twin-linked boltguns, they say that HTWPI, Hurricane Bolters benefit, effectively being a salvo 6/12 twin-linked weapon. Which, as I quote, the say it insane vs hordes.

I'd have to agree....

**DeathReaper**

Cryogen wrote:
"... all friendly Codex: Dark Angels units within 6" of the standard treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons"

Lower case b.

So it actually says boltguns and not boltgun?

See now that makes me think they were referring to anything under the boltguns section, and not just anything named Boltgun. as per the rules on P.56

Of course I just noticed that the Boltgun entry on P.56 lists Boltgun as Rapis Fire, I wonder what that is

**Matt.Kingsley**

lol.

I love GW's editing

or lack of it.

well, sometimes anyway.

**jegsar**

Ok thats it, i'm painting my chaos fallen a going full auto autocannons that get 4 shots each... i think that is about 84 S7 ap 4 range 48 shots per turn in only 1200 points... that's fair.

**Drunkspleen**

jegsar wrote:
Ok thats it, i'm painting my chaos fallen a going full auto autocannons that get 4 shots each... i think that is about 84 S7 ap 4 range 48 shots per turn in only 1200 points... that's fair.

Or we could be reasonable people and discuss the rules based on their actual content, rather than descend into hyperbole predicated on the idea that models in the Dark Angels codex other than Dreadnoughts and Predators can actually take Autocannons.

**MarkyMark**

Any reason why the banner would not work while embarked?

**jegsar**

I wasn't going with dreads and preds, i was going with devs, vets, and tacs...

It was a response to the idea of autocannons being converted to salvo 2/4...

Banners would work as long as there isn't a specific rule that prevents them from working.

**icefire78**

From what we have decided at our FLG is that boltguns refers to the anything under the boltguns category in the BRB. IE Bolt Pistols, Boltgun, Heavy Bolter and any USR ruled version thereoff (twin-linked, Master crafted, Combi). Auto cannons are not in that list and thus don't benefit from the banner. Only other one that can fall into that category is the mega bolter thing on nephilims and that already shoots 5 so is meaningless. We did have someone use his bolt pistols on his ravenwing with salvo 4 just for hilarity sake against 1 marine that was still alive.

As far as the banner working while embarked it would just be a 6" bubble measured from the vehicles hull. It's also why I'm considering trying a 4 LR crusader list with a deathwing command squad in one with that banner. Let the bullets fly baby.

**jegsar**

Yeah, i think that we need a ruling on boltgun though heavy bolder isn't bad since its only 1 extra shot. Storm bolder... That is just very very powerful on termies especially with DWA or the one that lets you reroll. So much broken in this dex.

Yeah landraider spam how fun.

**Drunkspleen**

jegsar wrote:
I wasn't going with dreads and preds, i was going with devs, vets, and tacs...

It was a response to the idea of autocannons being converted to salvo 2/4...

Banners would work as long as there isn't a specific rule that prevents them from working.

I know you were suggesting devs, vets, and tacs, which can't take autocannons, that was the entire thrust of my post.

**tgf**

icefire78 wrote:
So I have a few question for the new DA codex that have popped up from reading it.

1. Darkshrouds have the stealth special rule given to them in the FoC, but not under their description. Do they have stealth and the special rule shroud from the angels special rule and thus a 2+ cover when they move at all times?

2. Hurricane bolters are specifically worded as a set of 3 twin linked boltguns that fire as 1 weapon. Does this mean that banner of devastation makes them 2/4 salvo hurricane bolters, thus a darktalon / crusader within 6" of the banner could fire 24 twin linked shots a turn from the bolters?

3. Belial in his description has iron halo, but in his FoC is not listed with it in his wargear, which is true?

4. Deathwing Knights smite, is it 1 extra attack at +6 str and AP2 or is it all of their attacks that turn?

5. How does banner of devastation work in a vehicle? would it affect everything within 6" of the hull of say a land raider crusader if I put the command squad inside it?

1. Corrected in FAQ
2. Hurricane and TL bolters do get the Salvo profile regardelss of what TFG says
3. Correct in FAQ
4. All attacks
5. That is a good question. We play it as yes and measure from the vehicles hull until GW says otherwise.

Storm bolters and heavy bolters are clearly different weapons see codex grey knights and faq for stern guard in the C:SM FAQ. Storm bolters and heavy bolters are specificly called out as other weapons. Combi-bolters, TL Bolters, and Hurricane bolters all state in their description they are bolt guns and would benifit from Banner.

**tidalwake**

tgf wrote:

2. Hurricane and TL bolters do get the Salvo profile regardelss of what TFG says.

I had someone bring this up in a game last night on a hurricane bolter and he made a good point. He agreed that the Salvo banner should apply, however since it says in the codex on page 60 that it is 3 twin linked bolters fired as a single weapon His argument was that instead of shooting its' normal amount of shots that it was now a single weapon shooting at Salvo 2/4 since each boltgun isn't independent they can't each gain salvo to fire 4 shots each for a total of 12 shots on a hurricane bolter. Sorry if I am not articulating the disagreement well.

TL;DR - A hurricane bolter is a single weapon so each of the three twin-linked bolters can't gain salvo on their own so the entire weapon fires at 2/4 instead of it's normal shots of 6 inside 12" and 3 to 24"

Which way is right? I didn't have the energy to argue and let him have his way to get the game moving.

**TanKoL**

The entry for the banner says "treat their boltguns as 2/4 Salvo"
A Hurricane bolter "consists of 3 TL boltguns fired as a single weapon"
You can't consider the Hurricane bolter as salvo 2/4 by itself because it doesn't have a profile by itself, every consistuent TL boltgun though is another story, clearly in the scope of this.
In the same vein, a Hvy Bolter, Bolt pistol or storm bolter aren't impacted by the standard's rules as they are not a weapon named "boltgun", only a weapon in the Bolter category

**tgf**

TanKoL wrote:
The entry for the banner says "treat their boltguns as 2/4 Salvo"
A Hurricane bolter "consists of 3 TL boltguns fired as a single weapon"
You can't consider the Hurricane bolter as salvo 2/4 by itself because it doesn't have a profile by itself, every consistuent TL boltgun though is another story, clearly in the scope of this.
In the same vein, a Hvy Bolter, Bolt pistol or storm bolter aren't impacted by the standard's rules as they are not a weapon named "boltgun", only a weapon in the Bolter category

This is the way i would read the hurricane bolters as there is no profile. If there was a hurricane bolter profile of Rapid 3 Twin Link then yes the banner would not apply, but said profile does not exist. Come to think of it Rapid 3 doesn't exist. When figuring out how to use a huricane bolter you use the boltgun profile and the twin link rule three times. My guess is the fired as a single weapon is there for two reasons.

All three bolt guns use only a single firing action.
They can't use PotMS to split fire of the three bolt guns.

**Tracer Bullet**

It seems to me that this argument is reminiscent of the Sternguard issue with special ammunition. HIWPI is that only Boltguns and Twin-linked Boltguns get the bonus since they are the only ones that are just "Boltguns". Despite the Hurricane bolter using the rules of the Boltgun to fire it is still a separate weapon system with it's own armory entry and so doesn't benefit from things that only help a specific weapon system.

Also, as a nitpick of details, the Hurricane Bolters actual profile says "... consists of three twin linked bolters, ..." so unless the banner allows you to upgrade bolters rather than Boltguns then I would say you can't use the banner with it.

**tgf**

sternguard do get special ammo with their combi's whats your point?

**ClassicCarraway**

Formosa, Twin Linked is a USR, NOT a weapon type. Adding the Twin-Linked USR to a weapon does not in any way change the weapon type, it just applies the Twin Linked special rule to any shots fired by that weapon. Same deal with Mastercrafted.

That's why anything Twin Linked does not have a separate entry in the BRB weapon chart, unlike Heavy Bolter versus Boltgun, Stormbolter versus Boltgun, etc.

So, hurricane boltguns, twin linked boltguns, both get to use the effects of the banner. Heck, Mastercrafted Twin Linked Hurricane Boltguns get to use it too!

**Tracer Bullet**

My point was that they only get to use their special ammo with Boltguns, nothing else that is of the "Bolter" type. To me this gives a precedent that even though they are similar in their type, it still needs to be the specific wargear mentioned. Combi-weapons still work because they are a fired as either a Boltgun, or the attachment. Firing a Hurricane Bolter is not firing a Boltgun, it just happens to use the profile for the boltgun as a reference.

**tgf**

So your issue is with the fact that they call it a bolter not a boltgun, even thought the description clearly states it is 3 tl boltguns?

**Tracer Bullet**

The issue about them calling it a bolter was more a joke than anything else but it highlights the issue that there's an inconsistency as far as the labeling. If the Banner only affects Boltguns then a Hurricane Bolter doesn't benefit because it is not, in fact, a Boltgun. It may be fired as three twin linked Boltguns but in the end it's a Hurricane Bolter.

**ClassicCarraway**

Tracer Bullet wrote:
My point was that they only get to use their special ammo with Boltguns, nothing else that is of the "Bolter" type. To me this gives a precedent that even though they are similar in their type, it still needs to be the specific wargear mentioned. Combi-weapons still work because they are a fired as either a Boltgun, or the attachment. Firing a Hurricane Bolter is not firing a Boltgun, it just happens to use the profile for the boltgun as a reference.

There is a flaw with your logic here. The Hurricane doesn't have a weapon profile, as it is just 3 twin-linked boltguns. The special ammo for Sternguard could be fired from a Hurricane but for one small problem, a Sternguard can't actually be equipped with one. Stormbolters, bolt pistols, and heavy bolters all have a different weapon type/profile, so comparing the two situations doesn't work.

**Matt.Kingsley**

@ Tracer Bullet

Using that logic you can't shoot the hurricane bloter at all, seeming there is no profile for "bolter", only "boltgun"