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I've been in the process of slowly transitioning from active army builder to hobby painter. I enjoy painting cool models and want to keep doing so, even as my Space Marines army project heads toward a conclusion. So I've started digging around the vast hive of scum and villainy that is the internet for cool new minis to add to my painting case. Maybe something fantasy inspired to give me a break from all the power armor I've been working on this year. There's only so much scifi a man can paint before it becomes old hat. However I've been running in to a bit of an odd problem. Every time I find a cool female mini nine times out of ten she's had her clothing style taken from the Red Sonya school of the Chainmail bikini.... never mind the model's actual proportions which in many cases would be ridiculous for a lingerie model, never mind a battle hardened warrior who lives in a suit of plate armor and swings a sword as long as she is tall. Past the realism there's that little voice in the back of my head going "Remember that creepy roommate? The one with all those anime figurines in various states of undress? Remember what your friends, various girlfriends and even you said about them? Yeah this is the same thing except you have to paint it yourself mate."

I was pretty much letting it go though and was focusing on some of the Resistance fighters line from the fantastic Statuesque Minis. (I'm in a girl power mood, sue me)

Then I found this article on Bell of Lost Souls:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/01/how-they-see-us-internet-discovers.html

It's a response to this article from http://bitchmagazine.org/post/save-vs-sexism-kickstarting-sexism and I have to say reading it took me back to some other discussions I've had within nerd groups and without when issues or accusations of sexism and bias come out, mostly a deflective attitude of things like "Well it's just the art style" "Males are just as exaggerated in the game!" So not really addressing the issue but blowing it off and redirecting it.

What of it Dakka? Does the gaming industry have a problem we're failing to address? Is it part of the bigger problem nerd culture seems to be having in general with the mind boggling thought that *gasp* girls might actually like this stuff? Or are we all just stuck in the pulp art of the 70s and 80s?

in the end if i like it im going to do it and feth what anyone else thinks... if you think its sexist thats cool but at the end of theday its all how you as a person choose to see it... i havent seen a lot of discussion on it here so id have to assume that others dont care very much either.. i personally plan on making a female inquisitorial attachment for my ig army

yeah GW seems to have a fear of women, very few being there (and the ones that are, SOB for example, are forgotten and butchered over and over in the fluff)

I actually came up with a few idea's (one being the attempt in making a silly sounding idea, amazons in space, interesting and not suck, though cannot sculpt to save my life, so when I get the money will commission someone to do that for me)

Society in general has a sexism problem. The modeling hobby, as part of society, has a sexism problem because it refuses to make a conscious effort to avoid having one. And, based on the comments on the BOLS article, the modeling community has no interest in making that effort and will therefore continue to have a sexism problem for the foreseeable future.

SOB's an interesting point considering they literally wear corsets and have some BDSM esque material written right into their fluff with the Sisters Repentia. On the whole though I'd say Sisters are pretty decent for the medium as a whole when not being turned into armor paint or other various hideous things that could feed someone's gore fetish but I'm hoping that's not outright sexism and is just picking on a faction GW is hoping to send the way of the Squats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Society in general has a sexism problem. The modeling hobby, as part of society, has a sexism problem because it refuses to make a conscious effort to avoid having one. And, based on the comments on the BOLS article, the modeling community has no interest in making that effort and will therefore continue to have a sexism problem for the foreseeable future.

Or the first response to this very thread for that matter. Which seems to be a pretty common theme across all the various nerd sub communities when this comes up.

The problem is that the writer of the first article is wrong.

The consumer doesn't want what they say people want. Reaper has come out and provided some information regarding the sales of their "cheese cake" versus non-sexist miniatures (they have a broad range of both) and the cheese cake miniatures generally sell 10 to 1 when compared to fully clothed and realistically armored figures.

Companies like Kingdom of Death exist only because of Cheese Cake (and for those who recall the early days of Darksword Miniatures...). Calvacade games sells more of their bare chested females than all their other miniatures combined.

Other companies have made similar comments as well. The industry will make what will sell. If it doesn't sell - they generally don't bother to expand the line of figures.

 Somedude593 wrote:
in the end if i like it im going to do it and feth what anyone else thinks...

So I like punching people in the face, so I'm gonna punch you in the face and feth what you think about it. If you don't like it, that's cool, but it doesn't matter because it's really all about how you see it. If you see me punching you in the face as a bad thing, well, that's your problem, not mine. Why so sensitive?

A mindset completely and utterly ignoring how others feel about your actions is stupid.

 Melissia wrote:

 Somedude593 wrote:
in the end if i like it im going to do it and feth what anyone else thinks...

So I like punching people in the face, so I'm gonna punch you in the face and feth what you think about it.

A mindset completely and utterly ignoring how others feel about your actions is stupid.

There is a difference - one is illegal...the other is not.

A lot of things bother me. I just don't immerse myself in them. Don't like rap? Don't listen to radio stations that play rap. Don't like country music? Don't get bent out of shape then when you go to the country bar and all they play is country music.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
There is a difference - one is illegal...the other is not..

Actually, in many places it isn't legal, and can be constituted as a verbal assault that can get you fined.

But that's not really relevant-- why should mere legality define morality? Something being legal doesn't make it right or wrong.

While I know some people will spaz out and invoke Godwin's Law, you should note most everything Hitler did was perfectly legal as per the laws of the country. If Legality = Morality, that makes his actions moral. Same with Stalin's massacres as well, and indeed most government oppression such as slavery.

Even though all of these things were morally wrong, they were frequently LEGAL.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The problem is that the writer of the first article is wrong.

The consumer doesn't want what they say people want. Reaper has come out and provided some information regarding the sales of their "cheese cake" versus non-sexist miniatures (they have a broad range of both) and the cheese cake miniatures generally sell 10 to 1 when compared to fully clothed and realistically armored figures.

Companies like Kingdom of Death exist only because of Cheese Cake (and for those who recall the early days of Darksword Miniatures...). Calvacade games sells more of their bare chested females than all their other miniatures combined.

Other companies have made similar comments as well. The industry will make what will sell. If it doesn't sell - they generally don't bother to expand the line of figures.

Well now we're into the meat and potatoes of the issue. The companies provide the goods but it's the masses at large who buy them, so we the masses are at fault for driving the consumption of the product. The same could be said for Nerd Culture's sexism issue on a whole. How do we correct that? Who should correct that? Is it the corporation's responsibility? Ours? Should we just not care and say it is what it is? I agree with Melissia's point on that last argument but I suppose it is on the table.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The industry will make what will sell.

So what? The industry makes what sells, and what sells is sexist garbage because the community has a sexism problem. The fact that companies are willing to exploit that sexism as long as it sells well doesn't change the fact that the sexism problem exists.

 Melissia wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
There is a difference - one is illegal...the other is not..

Actually, in many places it isn't legal, and can be constituted as a verbal assault that can get you fined.

But that's not really relevant-- why should mere legality define morality? Something being legal doesn't make it right or wrong.
.

now your interjecting your own moral preferences into the debate.... they have no place here.. youre morals are not the same as others and living in a diverse world youre going to have to just live with it.... there are always going to be things you dont like going on around you.. thats life can you do anything to stop it? not really... there will always be people who will disaprove of what you or I or anyone does and if we try to make them all happy we cant live life... its not stupid its something we have to do to live in this world

 Somedude593 wrote:
now your interjecting your own moral preferences into the debate.... they have no place here.. youre morals are not the same as others and living in a diverse world youre going to have to just live with it.... there are always going to be things you dont like going on around you.. thats life can you do anything to stop it? not really..

So let me get this straight: your entire response to the subject is "shut up and deal with it"? Thank you for providing a textbook example of why the sexism problem in this hobby isn't going to change in the foreseeable future.

 Somedude593 wrote:
now your interjecting your own moral preferences into the debate....

I didn't realize that, how uncouth of me! Next you'll be telling me that when someone posts a painting article they're posting their own personal preferences about painting. Or that someone who says they like Space Marines is posting their own personal preferences regarding fluff in to the discussion, and HOW FETHING DARE THEY DO THAT.

I guess I should apologize for stating my opinion on sexism in the hobby in a thread about sexism in a hobby.

Except I won't.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Somedude593 wrote:
now your interjecting your own moral preferences into the debate.... they have no place here.. youre morals are not the same as others and living in a diverse world youre going to have to just live with it.... there are always going to be things you dont like going on around you.. thats life can you do anything to stop it? not really..

So let me get this straight: your entire response to the subject is "shut up and deal with it"? Thank you for providing a textbook example of why the sexism problem in this hobby isn't going to change in the foreseeable future.

my point is that if you try to shape the world to be the way you think it should be you will be most likely unhappy and disappointed.. you cant change the way someone is going to act if thats the way they want to act.. its just the truth

 Somedude593 wrote:
you cant change the way someone is going to act if thats the way they want to act.. its just the truth

The entirety of human history states otherwise.

 Melissia wrote:

 Somedude593 wrote:
now your interjecting your own moral preferences into the debate....

I didn't realize that, how uncouth of me! Next you'll be telling me that when someone posts a painting article they're posting their own personal preferences about painting. Or that someone who says they like Space Marines is posting their own personal preferences regarding fluff in to the discussion, and HOW FETHING DARE THEY DO THAT.

I guess I should apologize for stating my opinion on sexism in the hobby in a thread about sexism in a hobby.

Except I won't.

im very sorry i didnt clarify... i meant the seperate debate that we are having about morality that this has devolved into.. i am sorry this has devolved into what it has and of what its worth i give my sincerest apology no hard feeling

 Somedude593 wrote:
i meant the seperate debate

A debate about sexism in the hobby is necessarily a debate about the morality of misogyny.

There is no separation. They are the same.

Well, there's a lot to talk about concerning sexism in... everything.

Hell, women weren't even considered a major audience for big-budget movies until TWILIGHT came along (and it hurts me to admit that the Twilight films actually managed to do something good, and do not misinterpret, they do not promote anything positive themselves).

I don't think it's a matter of the consumer base being inherently sexist, it definitely has something to do with the people producing unwilling to adapt to a modern ideas. Something like Twilight proves that there is definitely money in marketing towards the female market (yes, there is that small bit about Twilight being misogynist bs, but let's work in babysteps).
If someone were to do it right, there's no doubt in my mind that you could get the same crossover success that series aimed towards men/boys have to women/girls.

The problem is not that women aren't buying, it's that nobody wants to make something that appeals to them.

I have no interest in MLP, but its creator, Lauren Faust makes a great point:
"The belief that boys shouldn’t be interested in girl things is the main reason there’s hardly anything decent for girls in animation — or almost any media for that matter. It’s a backwards, sexist, outdated attitude."

 Fafnir wrote:
Well, there's a lot to talk about concerning sexism in... everything.

Hell, women weren't even considered a major audience for big-budget movies until TWILIGHT came along

Titanic.

Just saying. It's still fairly recent mind you.... but you don't have to give credit to that horrible series.

Fair enough, but it doesn't change the fact that women being considered a major audience for anything with a high production value is rare.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The industry will make what will sell.

So what? The industry makes what sells, and what sells is sexist garbage because the community has a sexism problem. The fact that companies are willing to exploit that sexism as long as it sells well doesn't change the fact that the sexism problem exists.

Sexism is discrimination. This is not discrimination. If a testosterone-fueled male is biologically attracted to big breasts and a big butt, then what's wrong with that? This is yet another attack on the male sex drive.

When there are giant protests about movies like Magic Mike then it'll be be more even. But it's sad when males are attacked for being MALE. Just because you are easily offended doesn't mean you can ruin it for the rest of us. And for the record I didn't participate in the kickstarter.

Kind of sad to see the tumblr-feminazi crowd seems to have found Dakka

 Melissia wrote:

 Somedude593 wrote:
you cant change the way someone is going to act if thats the way they want to act.. its just the truth

The entirety of human history states otherwise.

im sorry i just had to come back for this.... the only ive ever seen people stop doing what they want to do is the application of bloody violence towards the offending populace... and thats not what i think youre advocating.. im actuallycurious about this

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
This is yet another attack on the male sex drive.

That is bs. The male sex drive does not necessarily push people to be donkey-caves. There are far more boys and men who are NOT violent, misogynistic turds than there are boys and men who are.

There are more males who are good people than bad. And yet despite this, you'll still probably attack me as a feminazi.

Well screw you. I am a feminist. I believe in equal treatment between the genders. I am fething PROUD of it.

 Somedude593 wrote:
im sorry i just had to come back for this...

Stop apologizing for your defeatist philosophy. It won't help make it seem any lest defeatist.

 Somedude593 wrote:
the only ive ever seen people stop doing what they want to do is the application of bloody violence towards the offending populace

Or simply being asked not to... or being told it's illegal... or realizing that it hurts other people... or, you know, being rational.

Which most people are. People quite frequently use logic such as "I don't really want to do [action] because it'll hurt someone else"-- and as a result of this logic, do not do the [action].

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Sexism is discrimination. This is not discrimination. If a testosterone-fueled male is biologically attracted to big breasts and a big butt, then what's wrong with that? This is yet another attack on the male sex drive.

It's wrong because it is the ONLY image of women the hobby offers. It focuses entirely on what (some) men want to see and excludes women as customers.

Plus, defining it in terms of biology is kind of ridiculous when there isn't some universal "perfect woman" that everyone wants to see. For example, I consider the models in question about as sexually appealing as watching paint dry.

When there are giant protests about movies like Magic Mike then it'll be be more even. But it's sad when males are attacked for being MALE. Just because you are easily offended doesn't mean you can ruin it for the rest of us. And for the record I didn't participate in the kickstarter.

Since when is "wanting their hobby to have 'sex object' be the only place for women" an inherent part of being a man?

Kind of sad to see the tumblr-feminazi crowd seems to have found Dakka

Seriously?

The level of sexism, racism and homophobia tolerated within not only tabletop wargaming, and not only gaming in general, and not only 'nerd culture,' and really the entire internet is so revolting that I sometimes think "Why do I even do this crap?"

Then I remember that at many jobs I've held or sporting events I've been to or parties I've attended all the idiots there think I'm as racist/sexist/homophobic as they are and I think "Well, at least gaming is something I enjoy..."

But guys, look at the long arc of history. Every time a group has managed to agitate for better treatment and more rights, they have not only got those rights eventually, but the people who denied them in the first place went down as either fools or monsters. It takes far to long to get this stuff right, but it happens eventually. I'd rather we not be remembered as the last society to get it wrong.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The industry will make what will sell.

So what? The industry makes what sells, and what sells is sexist garbage because the community has a sexism problem. The fact that companies are willing to exploit that sexism as long as it sells well doesn't change the fact that the sexism problem exists.

Sexism is discrimination. This is not discrimination. If a testosterone-fueled male is biologically attracted to big breasts and a big butt, then what's wrong with that? This is yet another attack on the male sex drive.

When there are giant protests about movies like Magic Mike then it'll be be more even. But it's sad when males are attacked for being MALE. Just because you are easily offended doesn't mean you can ruin it for the rest of us. And for the record I didn't participate in the kickstarter.

This also brings up a point, even if it is very clumsily made. Although, let's stay away from silly terms like 'feminazi.'

Personally, I have nothing against things like the KD pinups (I even own one or two), models which are cheesecake for the sake of cheesecake. The problem comes when oversexuality is marketed as something that it isn't, or when a character's value is only what they can offer sexually, or as an accessory.

Really, what a lot of people don't seem to understand is that feminism isn't about the subjugation of men, but rather, the desire for gender equality. If you haven't experienced being discriminated or suffering for being a different sex, it can be hard to understand.
https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/

 Melissia wrote:
That is bs. The male sex drive does not necessarily push people to be donkey-caves. There are far more boys and men who are NOT violent, misogynistic turds than there are boys and men who are.

There are more males who are good people than bad. And yet despite this, you'll still probably attack me as a feminazi.

Well screw you. I am a feminist. I believe in equal treatment between the genders. I am fething PROUD of it.

There are also feminists who don't go into a fullblown rampage when they see a woman in revealing clothing.

Also if you are a feminist, why do you believe in equal treatment between sexes? Shouldn't you call yourself a humanist then?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Sexism is discrimination. This is not discrimination. If a testosterone-fueled male is biologically attracted to big breasts and a big butt, then what's wrong with that? This is yet another attack on the male sex drive.

It's wrong because it is the ONLY image of women the hobby offers. It focuses entirely on what (some) men want to see and excludes women as customers.

Plus, defining it in terms of biology is kind of ridiculous when there isn't some universal "perfect woman" that everyone wants to see. For example, I consider the models in question about as sexually appealing as watching paint dry.

The ONLY? You sure you want to go there? Because when you start putting out words like that, it gets much easier to prove you wrong.

Also anecdotes aren't going to get you anywhere because I'm sure that at least one person is sexually attracted to one of the models.

When there are giant protests about movies like Magic Mike then it'll be be more even. But it's sad when males are attacked for being MALE. Just because you are easily offended doesn't mean you can ruin it for the rest of us. And for the record I didn't participate in the kickstarter.

Since when is "wanting their hobby to have 'sex object' be the only place for women" an inherent part of being a man?

Strawman, I never said that. I said that if men purchase it because it is attractive to them, then that's that. And like it or not, the women (at least in the art) are designed to be attractive to men. You may not like it but the numbers don't lie, many others do.
The people who bought them bought them for multiple reasons. Maybe they did want a sex object in their hobby but that can't be the only reason because the main boardgame doesn't have the pinups. They're extras.

Kind of sad to see the tumblr-feminazi crowd seems to have found Dakka

Seriously?

Seriously.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Strawman, I never said that.

Yes you did.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
If a testosterone-fueled male is biologically attracted to big breasts and a big butt, then what's wrong with that? This is yet another attack on the male sex drive.

Right here.

But then again, I don't agree with your definition of what makes a man.

 Melissia wrote:

 Somedude593 wrote:
the only ive ever seen people stop doing what they want to do is the application of bloody violence towards the offending populace

Or simply being asked not to... or being told it's illegal... or realizing that it hurts other people... or, you know, being rational.

Which most people are. People quite use logic such as "I don't really want to do [action] because it'll hurt someone else"-- and as a result of this logic, do not do the [action].

if that were true there would be no crime or rape because such things are not rational.... however people are irrational by their very nature so these things do happen.. i am not arguing that this is how it should be but it is the way things are in this world..... no amount of law can stop someone from doing something.. it merely sets consequences... while this may stop most people the others choose to be "donkey caves" and flout the rules whether they be social or legal... this is the reason why any social problem can never truly be solved no matter how much it may seem so. if a persons mind is changed by logic they didnt REALLY want to do it in the first place