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 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
If there is no difference, then what are you so upset about? If all of this is fanservice, then be on your merry way. Clearly there is a difference between the things that you don't have a problem with and the things that you do.

I pointed out EXACTLY what the problem is not TWO POSTS AGO. Seriously Manchu, if you're not going to bother reading my posts, why are you responding to them?

Yeah, this is what I was referring to when I posted that you have a problem with some sexualized female sculpts. But then you said I was talking about what you call fanservice so my point was invalid. Now you're telling me that you've been talking about the problematic sexualization and not fanservice all along.

 tomjoad wrote:
Or maybe women don't universally support feminism for the same reason poor Americans vote against their own self-interest year after year after year? Maybe they are socialized to think that standing up for themselves will only lead to being smacked down and further oppressed and they are then sexualized and abused for generations.

I

This is a thing that's pretty prevalent in nerd cultures. Have a look at that second article I posted a few turns back. It goes into depth and gives plenty of links to other discussions regarding the ridiculous brouhaha that ensued a few months back regarding women speaking out against sexism in the gaming industry.

 Manchu wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
Is Manchu really a moderator? If Dakka has such blatantly sexist mods running it, no wonder this kind of bile flows so freely.

Could you let me know how anything I said is sexist?

I could, but I doubt strongly that you'd agree.

I say that the sculpt has nothing to do with any of that.

I see feminism, or at least the blog version of it, as an instrument of mainstreaming -- an attempt to replace one set of values regarding a given topic with another set, a set that has little or nothing to do with that topic. This is a kind of moral imperialism: "adopt my beliefs or you are a troglodyte." We can do without such an invasion, thanks all the same.

You are defending sexism, and you are allegedly a leader here. A mod should be above sexist trolling, I think.

Mrs. Stompa wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
And yes, nerd culture can often be female unfriendly. My wife won't go near it for the most part. When terms like "pin-up" and particularly "cheesecake" are considered completely ordinary and not derogatory at all, it's easy to see why. I again point to Vivian Gale as a model that is awesome and doesn't fit the stereotype of over-sexualized female miniatures (not that all or even most of the models in that campaign escape the stereotype).

I actually love "pin-up" type art. And cheesecake has its place! But when they're the only options, things feel can pretty unfriendly, especially to women dipping a curious toe into the waters.

It's important to note that this is not what we are talking about: the origins of this discussion are KD:M, where the pin-ups are a non-game accessory. The actual women in game are equivalently armored to the men.

tomjoad wrote:Or maybe women don't universally support feminism for the same reason poor Americans vote against their own self-interest year after year after year? Maybe they are socialized to think that standing up for themselves will only lead to being smacked down and further oppressed and they are then sexualized and abused for generations.

I don't know, I guess it's possible that women have had the self-respect beaten out of them over the past hundreds of years, which is only reinforced by guys telling them that the sexism being directed at them is not only not a problem but is actively healthy. I guess that's possible.

Oh that's interesting. So, rather then accept the possability that women are thinking beings that are able to make their own decisions to agree or not agree with feminism, women (the vast majority now) who disagree are afflicted by what the Marxist would call a "false consciousness". They are without agency, simply puppets in the hands of the patriarchy.

That seems a strange argument to make on behalf of women.

So ...

Disagreeing that sexualized miniature sculpt demeans women ... that's what you think is sexist?

And proposing that feminism has been used by bloggers to assert counter-privilege ... that's sexist trolling?

Turning to Mrs. Stompa, I think you will find in tomjoad's position something akin to what's described in that second link you posted last page.

Just remember the important thing: Freedom of creative expression is unimportant in art when it hurts feelings.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
Just remember the important thing: Freedom of creative expression is unimportant in art when it hurts feelings.

Heh, rarely have I seen a discussion so succinctly summarized.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Mrs. Stompa wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
And yes, nerd culture can often be female unfriendly. My wife won't go near it for the most part. When terms like "pin-up" and particularly "cheesecake" are considered completely ordinary and not derogatory at all, it's easy to see why. I again point to Vivian Gale as a model that is awesome and doesn't fit the stereotype of over-sexualized female miniatures (not that all or even most of the models in that campaign escape the stereotype).

I actually love "pin-up" type art. And cheesecake has its place! But when they're the only options, things feel can pretty unfriendly, especially to women dipping a curious toe into the waters.

It's important to note that this is not what we are talking about: the origins of this discussion are KD:M, where the pin-ups are a non-game accessory. The actual women in game are equivalently armored to the men.

I know the discussion has....evolved a bit from the original. But I think it's not a bad idea to discuss the issues of hostility towards feminism within gaming culture in a more broad sense.

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
But I think it's not a bad idea to discuss the issues of hostility towards feminism within gaming culture in a more broad sense.

So what do you think causes this hostility?

 Manchu wrote:
So ...

Disagreeing that sexualized miniature sculpt demeans women ... that's what you think is sexist?

And proposing that feminism has been used by bloggers to assert counter-privilege ... that's sexist trolling?

Turning to Mrs. Stompa, I think you will find in tomjoad's position something akin to what's described in that second link you posted last page.

Yes, essentially. I think "socialized to think that...." isn't quite right though. It's more that many women have learned by experience in regards to getting a swift and hearty smackdown by male fellow gamers when bringing up issues involving sexism. So much so that many of us just aren't up for the ensuing battle that inevitably follows voicing an opinion on the matter.

 Manchu wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
Is Manchu really a moderator? If Dakka has such blatantly sexist mods running it, no wonder this kind of bile flows so freely.

Could you let me know how anything I said is sexist?

I'm not sure I'd call it sexist, but it's a little narrow in vision.

Basically, you have a problem with being told that you are morally inferior for liking something too much, or not denouncing it loudly enough. You are made to feel unwelcome because of what you enjoy, and that in order to received approval you need to change who you are. Oddly enough, that's how many women feel in a lot of hostile situations. What most men would tell them is that they ran into bad men, and it's not men that are bad. What you are doing failing to differentiate between poor behavior from being a feminist, and saying that you don't like feminists.

As buzzsaw pointed out, many "feminists" stopped representing actual women about 15-20 years ago. Clearly there are some concerns with gender equality, but most women have freedoms, both on paper and in practice, that were extremely rare two generations ago. My girlfriend is a classic example. She doesn't really consider herself a feminist, and enjoys a very traditional role in our relationship. That said, she's had a divorce, long term birth control implanted, and works full time in a male dominated field (private security). She has reaped the benefits of 75 years of feminists.

So, when a blogger or random woman calls you a troglodyte because you like a mini, realize that she's the female equivalent of the guy that thinks women can't park, and move on. Women are people, and some people are jerks.

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Mrs. Stompa wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
And yes, nerd culture can often be female unfriendly. My wife won't go near it for the most part. When terms like "pin-up" and particularly "cheesecake" are considered completely ordinary and not derogatory at all, it's easy to see why. I again point to Vivian Gale as a model that is awesome and doesn't fit the stereotype of over-sexualized female miniatures (not that all or even most of the models in that campaign escape the stereotype).

I actually love "pin-up" type art. And cheesecake has its place! But when they're the only options, things feel can pretty unfriendly, especially to women dipping a curious toe into the waters.

It's important to note that this is not what we are talking about: the origins of this discussion are KD:M, where the pin-ups are a non-game accessory. The actual women in game are equivalently armored to the men.

I know the discussion has....evolved a bit from the original. But I think it's not a bad idea to discuss the issues of hostility towards feminism within gaming culture in a more broad sense.

What hostilities? If we are talking about the feminist frequency nonsense, well most gaming communities rose up and called her a hero after the youtube and 4chan trolling. Personally i think shes a professional victim with the way she rode the youtube comments to massive backing, but the point stands that when pressed to confront sexism in gaming "communities"(youtube is not a gaming community nor is it one singular community) they didn't behave like the worst scum of the internet. Youtube did, 4chan did, but most gaming sites did not.

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
So much so that many of us just aren't up for the ensuing battle that inevitably follows voicing an opinion on the matter.

Yep, the effort is exhausting and fruitless.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
But I think it's not a bad idea to discuss the issues of hostility towards feminism within gaming culture in a more broad sense.

So what do you think causes this hostility?

Probably a blend of many things? I couldn't say other than that some (not all!) guys I've encountered seem threatened, almost. Their games are their things. They're quite open to the idea of women joining the hobby and gaming, but only if things remain the same, which is to say designed by men and for the male gaze. So when women speak up about the lack of varied representation, it tends to call down a storm of criticism involving things from the juvenile - accusations of being a "dyke" "man-hater", etc to comments about a woman's body and the always fun rape joke, to the more scholarly approach of "Well men face sexism, too, therefore your argument is pointless."

 Polonius wrote:
What you are doing failing to differentiate between poor behavior from being a feminist, and saying that you don't like feminists.

I would encourage you to read more closely. I have several times pointed out the difference between feminism generally, whatever it may be, and the subject of my criticism, which is the blogosphere feminism that seeks to impose an imperial normative.

Finally! An interesting, emotive and deep discussion that's not in the OT forum.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

What of it Dakka? Does the gaming industry have a problem we're failing to address? Is it part of the bigger problem nerd culture seems to be having in general with the mind boggling thought that *gasp* girls might actually like this stuff? Or are we all just stuck in the pulp art of the 70s and 80s?

As with most things, the soldier sees things in black and white more than shades of grey.. I really think that we are over thinking the issue judging by the thread.

At the end of the day, thanks to our long process of interaction over our lengthy evolution, women and men are somewhat different with regards to the entire process of interacting with one and other, and as a result of that, sexism will always exist to an extent. Generally speaking, men are the chasers, women are the choosers... well... unless they are talking to staggeringly handsome men like me obviously.

Its true though, ever read Hitchen's article about why men are funnier than women? Its because we have to TRY so much harder, and we always have had to.

And there is the really obvious "pack mentality" issue as well (human behaviour changes when mobbed up) So as a result, yes, gamers are sexist, because its a predominantly male hobby, and whenever you get a pack of humans together, they collectively become more sexist. I have seen some really aggressively sexual hen parties (I think you lot call them bachelorette parties!) plenty of times for example, and that's women! A chick said "Hi" and then savagely grabbed my nuts at a bar once and all of her mates started cheering and laughing and hooting. Blokes are obviously going to be even worse when you put them in a gang of similar size... a mob is only as smart as its stupidest member.

Anyways, the point I'm making is simply that sure gamers are sexist, not only because many of us are pasty dweebs who don't get laid very much.... but for the really obvious reasons, such as a pack mentality (practiced by both sexes) and the obvious fact that men are more likely to chase skirt because we are biologically inclined to do so. But I don't think there is anything much you can do about it, or that its actually enough of a problem that we should worry over much.

Ladies in the West are more empowered than ever, and they know they can happily tell you to feth off without risking being beaten up or forced to walk ten paces behind you in the street.

Basically, girls should have slightly thicker skins and be confident enough to have a go at people when they see a problem, and men should try not to act like the desperate savages we still obviously are thanks to our poorly evolved mammalian brains.

Maybe pointing out that most chicks will be more impressed by the cool guy than the bloke who reeks of desperation will work the best.

The carrot and the stick approach works better than the stick after all. (Getting your wife to knee some nuts)

 tomjoad wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
Is Manchu really a moderator? If Dakka has such blatantly sexist mods running it, no wonder this kind of bile flows so freely.

Could you let me know how anything I said is sexist?

I could, but I doubt strongly that you'd agree.

The mods make knee jerk and emotionally charged responses just like everyone else, expecting impartiality from them will lead to disappointment.

Mrs. Stompa wrote:...

I know the discussion has....evolved a bit from the original. But I think it's not a bad idea to discuss the issues of hostility towards feminism within gaming culture in a more broad sense.

But we're not really doing that, are we now? We're having a discussion where one side knows they are right, and the other side is evil.

Mrs. Stompa wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
So ...

Disagreeing that sexualized miniature sculpt demeans women ... that's what you think is sexist?

And proposing that feminism has been used by bloggers to assert counter-privilege ... that's sexist trolling?

Turning to Mrs. Stompa, I think you will find in tomjoad's position something akin to what's described in that second link you posted last page.

Yes, essentially. I think "socialized to think that...." isn't quite right though. It's more that many women have learned by experience in regards to getting a swift and hearty smackdown by male fellow gamers when bringing up issues involving sexism. So much so that many of us just aren't up for the ensuing battle that inevitably follows voicing an opinion on the matter.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but where has this happened? The anger at how GW recast the SoB in the Grey Knight Codex isn't some isolated thing found only on obscure feminist blogs, it's a mainstream reaction to crappy writing.

GW's insane gynophobia is common knowledge, it's talked about openly and often.

PP, CB, KD, Wyrd, these people talk about the role of women in their games, they reach out, they are inclusive... and they are applauded in the main for it.

The hostility is related to the same push back academic (or blog, as Manchu terms it) feminism receives everywhere, even among women.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
If there is no difference, then what are you so upset about? If all of this is fanservice, then be on your merry way. Clearly there is a difference between the things that you don't have a problem with and the things that you do.

I pointed out EXACTLY what the problem is not TWO POSTS AGO. Seriously Manchu, if you're not going to bother reading my posts, why are you responding to them?

Yeah, this is what I was referring to when I posted that you have a problem with some sexualized female sculpts. But then you said I was talking about what you call fanservice so my point was invalid. Now you're telling me that you've been talking about the problematic sexualization and not fanservice all along.

This argument is nothing more than a strawman, and I honestly wondered for a moment if you were being serious. I'll try to keep an open mind and assume you are until you claim otherwise.

So I will re-iterate my argument, by quoting my own posts. I hope you will actually read them, this time.

1:

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I'm not insisting that you claimed anything about fanservice. Fanservice is not the issue. The issue is sexualized miniature sculpts. Please stay on-topic.

Stop acting like there's any difference.

Explanation: Both male sexualization and female sexualization in western media are primarily, if not entirely, designed to titillate the male. Very small, minor examples of sexualization can be used to indicate sexual dimorphism, but almost all sexualization in the medium goes far beyond that, in to the realm of fan-service. And so, for the most part, yes, sexualization IS fan-service.

Like many statements, it is a generalization, but a statement being a generalization does not make it false. You make a generalization that the ground beneath your feet is going to be solid and hold your weight when you walk on the floor of your home, and that likewise generally proves to be true, as well.

2:

 Melissia wrote:
As I said, there's really nothing necessarily wrong with the fanservice models.

Explanation: Fan-service is okay. It's not bad, certainly no worse than enjoying a good war movie or a good horror movie. Porn exists for pure fan-service, and it's not inherently bad (barring the more financially exploitive aspects of the industry and some of the less savory practices in it, but that's not an inherent property of the medium and not really a relevant discussion for this thread or this particular forum) either.

3:

 Melissia wrote:
I just wish there were more models that weren't fanservice.

Explanation: The fan-service models are fine, but they aren't what I am interested in buying. So I don't buy it. Asking for the medium to produce something I want to buy is called "being a customer" and it is the basis for all capitalistic economic systems, including the ones which we make use of in the various countries whom most commonly participate in this forum.

Let's take the female Imperial Guard example: I would buy female guardsmen... but they aren't being produced, and there's really very few good replacement models produced that can work alongside Games Workshop models, the styles just don't mix, etc. I want to vote with my wallet, but there is no suitable candidate on the ballot, so none of them get my vote. And then it is claimed that I am not interested in the hobby. Well, hobby, I would be interested if you actually produced models I wanted to buy.

4:

 Melissia wrote:
Why would it need to be best behavior? When you have people who are actively going around calling any woman who dares ask if there's any female marines "feminazis", or who wants a female guard model a "feminist bitch", one would think that's far, FAR less than "best behavior"-- that's probably closer to worst.

Explanation: Completely unrelated to the fan-service models, this relates to attitudes and actions of the various fans. Note that I explicitly stated that these people are in the minority, just a few bad apples that spoil the bunch-- and my argument is that it would be better for the group as a whole for the bunch to either ostracize the bad apples or make them reform.


edit: So after I make this post, I'm going to go take a break from this thread. Maybe play some awesomenauts. G'day to ya.

 Varrick wrote:

What hostilities? If we are talking about the feminist frequency nonsense, well most gaming communities rose up and called her a hero after the youtube and 4chan trolling. Personally i think shes a professional victim with the way she rode the youtube comments to massive backing, but the point stands that when pressed to confront sexism in gaming "communities"(youtube is not a gaming community nor is it one singular community) they didn't behave like the worst scum of the internet. Youtube did, 4chan did, but most gaming sites did not.

Yes, the Feminist Frequency "nonsense." Yes, online a lot of people did rise to her defense. And that was grand. But I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Are you implying that she had no reason to complain in the first place? Or that women in general are just making it up when we complain about harassment within game cultures?

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all women find all actions demeaning, any more than any group finds something demeaning.

As a culture, we do respect some sensitivities. What percentage of people are actively offended by, say, profanity, but we don't allow it on TV (or on Dakka). It's a socially recognized sensitivity. That's extended in the last 100 years to include racial slurs. Words that used to be used in commercial advertising are now less acceptable than some profanities!

Now, when it comes to something like minis, there is a broad range of thoughts. It's hard to look at a single mini, and say that this is going to significantly alter the way men look at women. Still, some women will be offended. Others will not feel comfortable. Most will be indifferent (boys will be boys). Some will find it interesting, while others want to buy one.

Where Manchu has a point, and a good one, is that there are some that want to press one viewpoint on everybody. PC didn't die in 2000, it just went underground. I dont' like the casual conflation between that behavior and feminism, but I recognize that it's somewhat unavoidable.

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
I couldn't say other than that some (not all!) guys I've encountered seem threatened, almost.

I quite agree and I encourage you to very carefully consider why that might be. Hostility is often met with hostility. You are presenting these "feminist" critiques as (1) correct and (2) friendly. But they are actually hostile and rather presumptuous. They seek to change something only for the sake of accommodating something outside of it. This all sounds unseemly when we dress it up as gender wars. Let's take some of the charge out of it by using an example: Let's say I write stories about airplanes that some of my friends like to read. One of my other friends also wants to read them but says they need to be about trains because he doesn't like airplanes. Further, he notes that all of these airplane stories are part of a wider agenda to undermine rail travel. This is what I mean by hostile and presumptuous.

 mattyrm wrote:

But I don't think there is anything much you can do about it, or that its actually enough of a problem that we should worry over much.

Forgive me, but this is incredibly easy to say when you're the one with a penis. You go on to make a point about ladies just telling guys to eff off, or something to that affect. Here's a thing though, it's not always that easy. For instance, some women are incredibly shy about standing up for themselves. Online it's easier than in person, by leaps and bounds. Telling a-holes to eff off can be an vastly intimidating prospect when you're 1 woman against multiple guys.

 Manchu wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
What you are doing failing to differentiate between poor behavior from being a feminist, and saying that you don't like feminists.

I would encourage you to read more closely. I have several times pointed out the difference between feminism generally, whatever it may be, and the subject of my criticism, which is the blogosphere feminism that seeks to impose an imperial normative.

I think your comment is more vague in the the difference:

I disagree. I see feminism, or at least the blog version of it, as an instrument of mainstreaming -- an attempt to replace one set of values regarding a given topic with another set, a set that has little or nothing to do with that topic. This is a kind of moral imperialism: "adopt my beliefs or you are a troglodyte." We can do without such an invasion, thanks all the same.

You are separating out "blog feminism," but only as a matter of degree, not of kind. It's not an uncommon mistake. After all, 90% of what feminists wanted 40 years ago we have. Outside of the sheer need for women to have babies, there's not too much more we can do in the working and political world to engender equality.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Mrs. Stompa wrote:...

I know the discussion has....evolved a bit from the original. But I think it's not a bad idea to discuss the issues of hostility towards feminism within gaming culture in a more broad sense.

But we're not really doing that, are we now? We're having a discussion where one side knows they are right, and the other side is evil.

Mrs. Stompa wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
So ...

Disagreeing that sexualized miniature sculpt demeans women ... that's what you think is sexist?

And proposing that feminism has been used by bloggers to assert counter-privilege ... that's sexist trolling?

Turning to Mrs. Stompa, I think you will find in tomjoad's position something akin to what's described in that second link you posted last page.

Yes, essentially. I think "socialized to think that...." isn't quite right though. It's more that many women have learned by experience in regards to getting a swift and hearty smackdown by male fellow gamers when bringing up issues involving sexism. So much so that many of us just aren't up for the ensuing battle that inevitably follows voicing an opinion on the matter.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but where has this happened? The anger at how GW recast the SoB in the Grey Knight Codex isn't some isolated thing found only on obscure feminist blogs, it's a mainstream reaction to crappy writing.

GW's insane gynophobia is common knowledge, it's talked about openly and often.

PP, CB, KD, Wyrd, these people talk about the role of women in their games, they reach out, they are inclusive... and they are applauded in the main for it.

The hostility is related to the same push back academic (or blog, as Manchu terms it) feminism receives everywhere, even among women.

For me, it's been on a much more personal scale. It hasn't been me against <GAME COMPANY WHATEVER> it's me against the guys who play games from the whatever company. It's being a female and being called "slut/whore/dyke" and dealing with the "show your tits/various sex-related comments/rape jokes" when trying to play. It's realizing that it actually sucks that finding a game with representations of women other than "tiny waist with giant boobs" is such an awesome feeling, because it means it's such a rare find in the first place.

I applaud companies who are working to change it though! And they are, they really are. I'm hoping for a lot of trickle down change.

 Manchu wrote:

hands_miranda wrote:
Whine about it if you want, but if you want people to stop talking about the troglodyte label the best solution is to not act like one.

You claim to herald a pluralistic society but your language is full of derogatory comments and warnings to fit in. "Get with the program." Who's program? You have to realize that you're not talking about the end of privilege but its restructuring according to different parameters. This is different from what I mean. For example, you presume in the part of your post that I quoted that a person who doesn't want to be called a troglodyte should not act like one. It would be a wonderful world if people were only criticized for what they actually did and said -- but that's not the world we have. In this world, people call you a troglodyte for disagreeing with them. I reject that. Whether or not I share Blogger X's "concern" about a sexualized sculpt actually has nothing to do with whether I treat women with respect and dignity.

The point of plurality is that you have to throw out the old ideas that were set up to hinder the equality of people. It's no less pluralistic to call someone on the wrong side of the patriarchy divide a Troglodyte than it is to talk about persons on the wrong side of the racial inequality divide racist. Those divides are going to have to end, and the only way to do it in a equal society to redistribute power away from the advantaged groups and towards the disadvantaged. This is not a radical idea and has been happening in society for over a hundred years.

And yeah, liking and collecting a bunch of sexualized female figs is treating women with disrespect. You shouldn't be objectifying people, especially those you have a relative power advantage over. It's the same reason why collecting a bunch of racially stereotyped means you aren't treating those racial groups with respect. For example, the infamous Curteys Han Chinese figures with their overblown racialized look.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
I have not advocated taking away the fan-service models, the cheesecake models, etc.. No matter how much you might try to claim otherwise, the claims are false, and I insist that you stop claiming that I have advocated that.

I'm not insisting that you claimed anything about fanservice. Fanservice is not the issue. The issue is sexualized miniature sculpts. Please stay on-topic.

Sexualized figures are fan service. Women, and men with some level of sensitivity about the issue, would prefer to be able to get some sculpts that aren't sexualized. Sorry, but with the bizarre breastplates and bondage gear, the old SOBs end up as pretty sexualized.

Here's a guy's art for redesigned sisters in a non-sexualized way :
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/Terrible_Trygon/Sisters%20of%20Battle/BattleSisterDesign.jpg" border="0" />


Note how some level of femininity has been kept without actually sexualizing the figure. It's certainly possible to do so, it's just that due to how screwed up nerd and mini culture is, it isn't the more obvious choice.

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

But I don't think there is anything much you can do about it, or that its actually enough of a problem that we should worry over much.

Forgive me, but this is incredibly easy to say when you're the one with a penis....Telling a-holes to eff off can be an vastly intimidating prospect when you're 1 woman against multiple guys.

Actually, being a male might help, but standing up to a group isn't easy for anybody.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
I couldn't say other than that some (not all!) guys I've encountered seem threatened, almost.

I quite agree and I encourage you to very carefully consider why that might be. Hostility is often met with hostility. You are presenting these "feminist" critiques as (1) correct and (2) friendly. But they are actually hostile and rather presumptuous. They seek to change something only for the sake of accommodating something outside of it. This all sounds unseemly when we dress it up as gender wars. Let's take some of the charge out of it by using an example: Let's say I write stories about airplanes that some of my friends like to read. One of my other friends also wants to read them but says they need to be about trains because he doesn't like airplanes. Further, he notes that all of these airplane stories are part of a wider agenda to undermine rail travel. This is what I mean by hostile and presumptuous.

Well, you would be right, because your friend would sound like an ass. The problem arises when the fans of trains have rare options to read their train stories and say they'd like some train stories as well as airplane stories, and are told by the airplane guys to quit complaining about it.

hands_miranda wrote:
The point of plurality is that you have to throw out the old ideas that were set up to hinder the equality of people.

No, that is not what plurality is about. Plurality is about disparate elements existing together without violent conflict.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
The problem arises when the fans of trains have rare options to read their train stories and say they'd like some train stories s well as airplane stories, and are told by the airplane guys to quit complaining about it.

Even still, this isn't a zero sum game. The people writing about airplanes do not need to stop and write about trains instead. If there is demand for train stories, someone will write them.

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

But I don't think there is anything much you can do about it, or that its actually enough of a problem that we should worry over much.

Forgive me, but this is incredibly easy to say when you're the one with a penis. You go on to make a point about ladies just telling guys to eff off, or something to that affect. Here's a thing though, it's not always that easy. For instance, some women are incredibly shy about standing up for themselves. Online it's easier than in person, by leaps and bounds. Telling a-holes to eff off can be an vastly intimidating prospect when you're 1 woman against multiple guys.

Oh sure I agree with you, but confidence is a good thing... I'm not saying its easy, I'm just saying you should do it.

Its the same for guys as well right? And in Britain, id certainly rather tell a group of guys to feth off as a woman than as a man.. more likely to get your ass kicked.

My point was that people being desperate to impress/showing off/acting like tits in front of the opposite sex is part of being a human, It always will be, and I think we are at a good place generally (sexism is viewed unfavourably and rightly so) and its not just guys that do it, packs of women are bad as well. My point was that in a gang, people act more like the animals we are, and because gaming is more men, then yes, its negative towards women.

I bet Id get my ass slapped plenty if I signed up at a pole dancing class though!

 Manchu wrote:

hands_miranda wrote:
The point of plurality is that you have to throw out the old ideas that were set up to hinder the equality of people.

No, that is not what plurality is about. Plurality is about disparate elements existing together without violent conflict.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
The problem arises when the fans of trains have rare options to read their train stories and say they'd like some train stories s well as airplane stories, and are told by the airplane guys to quit complaining about it.

Even still, this isn't a zero sum game. The people writing about airplanes do not need to stop and write about trains instead. If there is demand for train stories, someone will write them.

No, there's no need to stop the airplane stories. Some of us like both airplanes and trains. But the airplane fans have to make room for train stories (not get rid of their airplane stories, mind you, or stop writing them) in the library.