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 Las wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Las wrote:
Point being that there's no reason I should have to search for extra heads. What if I want to play in GW sanctioned tourneys? Why can't GW themselves provide this?

Well, first off, I think you could play in GW-sanctioned tournies if all you replaced was a model's head. As to why GW has no obligation to provide you with the models you personally would prefer -- well, because they're obligation is to sell to as many folks as possible rather than to some subset of that population. It's not some massive anti-woman conspiracy. It's the same reason GW doesn't provide me with the Savlar Chem Dogs I so desperately want to collect.

I'm not saying its a conspiracy, man. I just want their line to more coincide with the lore, whats so hard to understand about that? There's no reason to be so defensive and take things to massive extremes.

Take things to massive extremes? That seems ... a bit extreme itself, honestly. I wasn't taking anything to a massive extreme nor was I being defensive. I just don't think it's mysterious why GW sells mostly male sculpts. I think it's for the exact same reason that they only offer a very few of the many regiments that make up the Guard. I mean, if it was true to the lore as you say then the IG line would easily be the most diverse and require the most models of any of the 40k armies.

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
But I think it's not a bad idea to discuss the issues of hostility towards feminism within gaming culture in a more broad sense.

So what do you think causes this hostility?

The self entitlement some of these feminists have even though men and women are pretty equal in today's western society; they think they can go into a male dominated hobby and expect sensorship just because they find things that men like offensive. Sure it would be nice to have games for women and a female gaming community, but instead of building a female gaming community and showing the games companies that they would like more inclusion in the industry, many feminists decide to bash on the games intended for men, which results in them getting no sympathy or support and hostility from the gaming community.

But let me ask you - why is it male dominated? Is it ok that it's male dominated? Why shouldn't women feel welcome in exploring a new hobby? I don't think I'm alone in saying that I don't want a separate "women's gaming community" or "women's games."

They are welcome to "explore" a new hobby, and just like anyone else, they might find things they don't like which keep them from partaking in that hobby

 MetalOxide wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
But I think it's not a bad idea to discuss the issues of hostility towards feminism within gaming culture in a more broad sense.

So what do you think causes this hostility?

The self entitlement some of these feminists have even though men and women are pretty equal in today's western society; they think they can go into a male dominated hobby and expect sensorship just because they find things that men like offensive. Sure it would be nice to have games for women and a female gaming community, but instead of building a female gaming community and showing the games companies that they would like more inclusion in the industry, many feminists decide to bash on the games intended for men, which results in them getting no sympathy or support and hostility from the gaming community.

Part of the equality is being able to point to something and say 'that is no longer appropriate'. That's a part of the newfound freedoms of women, ethnic minorities and so on, they get to look at something and deem it not acceptable, it's part of why GW don't put their pygmies on sale any more.

hands_miranda wrote:

 Varrick wrote:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:

 Varrick wrote:

What hostilities? If we are talking about the feminist frequency nonsense, well most gaming communities rose up and called her a hero after the youtube and 4chan trolling. Personally i think shes a professional victim with the way she rode the youtube comments to massive backing, but the point stands that when pressed to confront sexism in gaming "communities"(youtube is not a gaming community nor is it one singular community) they didn't behave like the worst scum of the internet. Youtube did, 4chan did, but most gaming sites did not.

Yes, the Feminist Frequency "nonsense." Yes, online a lot of people did rise to her defense. And that was grand. But I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Are you implying that she had no reason to complain in the first place? Or that women in general are just making it up when we complain about harassment within game cultures?

No, im saying FF played victim to gaming press and made YouTube trolling into more than it actually was. The issue i took was that the feminist frequency controversy was grounded in the idea that gamers themselves are sexist, and gaming media ran with it. But what part do you think im saying the complaints are worthless in? Well i think her complaints about the YouTube comments are worthless & disingenuous. Mainly because they were used to slander gaming communities in press from the escapist to the Huntington post, all because someone on YouTube decided to take YouTube comments as a personal attack instead of trolling. Not to say its wrong to make such comments, but its just as bad to handle them the way she did.
Do i think it worthless to complain about threats? no, provided we are talking about legitimate threats on your life. Not YouTube trolls by some idiot with bad humor.
Do i think women cant complain about representation in media? no, but the way sarkeesian is doing it was just preaching to her audience, instead of trying to change anything.
The harassment exists, but not anywhere near to the extent some people think it is.

I would appreciate you not acting like im some woman-hating monster, i spend enough time browsing YouTube comments to know where "you think women are making it up" goes.

You're talking about a game that made rape a joke. She and every women out there is the victim of that trivialization. Hell, men are hurt by it to, since it helps create the false narrative that they have to be a predator to get anywhere. Telling someone off for making that kind of game is no different than shaming a minstrel show out of existence for being racist.

You're talking to someone that thinks nothing is off limits in comedy. Not to say YouTube comments are comedy to anyone but the poster. But this wasnt telling off you tube commentators, it was telling off gamers for what YouTube commentators said.

 MetalOxide wrote:

The self entitlement some of these feminists have even though men and women are pretty equal in today's western society; they think they can go into a male dominated hobby and expect sensorship just because they find things that men like offensive. Sure it would be nice to have games for women and a female gaming community, but instead of building a female gaming community and showing the games companies that they would like more inclusion in the industry, many feminists decide to bash on the games intended for men, which results in them getting no sympathy or support and hostility from the gaming community.

No one's bashing on the games, it's quite clear from the women in this thread that they have a real love and passion for the hobby. The issue is that they feel like outsiders and instead of looking for ways to alleviate this problem, your insecurities are driving you to ignore the way they feel and dismiss it as intrusion into something that isn't really yours to govern. We should be looking to make the gaming community as awesome as possible and personally I think having more women in the hobby would be wicked. Unless you're some dork with a fear of females I don't see what the problem is. No one says you have to get rid of your mini porn, just recognize the viewpoints of others, regardless of gender.

 Manchu wrote:

 Las wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Las wrote:
Point being that there's no reason I should have to search for extra heads. What if I want to play in GW sanctioned tourneys? Why can't GW themselves provide this?

Well, first off, I think you could play in GW-sanctioned tournies if all you replaced was a model's head. As to why GW has no obligation to provide you with the models you personally would prefer -- well, because they're obligation is to sell to as many folks as possible rather than to some subset of that population. It's not some massive anti-woman conspiracy. It's the same reason GW doesn't provide me with the Savlar Chem Dogs I so desperately want to collect.

I'm not saying its a conspiracy, man. I just want their line to more coincide with the lore, whats so hard to understand about that? There's no reason to be so defensive and take things to massive extremes.

Take things to massive extremes? That seems ... a bit extreme itself, honestly. I wasn't taking anything to a massive extreme nor was I being defensive. I just don't think it's mysterious why GW sells mostly male sculpts. I think it's for the exact same reason that they only offer a very few of the many regiments that make up the Guard. I mean, if it was true to the lore as you say then the IG line would easily be the most diverse and require the most models of any of the 40k armies.

Insinuating that I think there's 'anti-woman conspiracy' is pretty extreme. Most guard books I've read have included female characters. It's not that wild to include a head or two.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:


They are welcome to "explore" a new hobby, and just like anyone else, they might find things they don't like which keep them from partaking in that hobby

The issue is that there is literally zero reason as to why this misrepresentation needs to continue.

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
...

I think our airplanes and trains thing is starting to break down a little for me. Here's what it comes down to for a lot of women. They want to get involved in a gaming/nerdy hobby. But they have a look and see it dominated by tropes, images, and participants that make a lot of us cringe. This includes big-boob panty ninjas, rape jokes, and entirely one dimensional representations of female characters. I don't think the solution is to say to those women "Well, go make your own game/comic/mini, these are ours." I think a better approach would be "This is an awesome hobby and we want you to feel welcome in it too, so we'll make it less weird for you by adding things that appeal to you, but we're still going to keep our big-boob panty ninjas."

I, and a lot of other women would say "Cool. Just drop the rape jokes and ask some of your guys to stop telling us to show our tits."

This is just my opinion. Your milage may vary.

The problem here is that (and this echoes your earlier point), you're asking people to exercise control over people that... we don't know. That we don't associate with. To rebuke behavior that we would already rebuke.

This is the element of grievance I mentioned earlier: the things said to you by uncouth people were said because they are uncouth people.

When I say people who find fault with the existing models should make their own, it's because the best things come from people following their vision, exploring their gifts and passions. Miniatures sculpted by committee, or to satisfy some vaguely defined market segment will always disappoint. Miniatures, like those in KD, that are made by passionate people following their passion, become art.

And we could all do with more art.

 MetalOxide wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
But I think it's not a bad idea to discuss the issues of hostility towards feminism within gaming culture in a more broad sense.

So what do you think causes this hostility?

The self entitlement some of these feminists have even though men and women are pretty equal in today's western society; they think they can go into a male dominated hobby and expect sensorship just because they find things that men like offensive. Sure it would be nice to have games for women and a female gaming community, but instead of building a female gaming community and showing the games companies that they would like more inclusion in the industry, many feminists decide to bash on the games intended for men, which results in them getting no sympathy or support and hostility from the gaming community.

Listen to yourself for a second. A women coming in and breaking up the old boy's club is the definition of what happens when male privilege starts to be broken up. It's a good thing, not a bad one. Men don't get to have their objectified metal women to place on the shelf and "safe space" to tell rape jokes any more racists get to have a "safe space" to tell their racist jokes and enjoy Birth of a Nation. Sorry it hurts your ego so much to have to actually treat the women you deal with on a daily basis as equals and not the flesh versions of your cheesecake art and figures. I will tell you once you get used to it and embrace it the benefits are huge-- more meaningful relationships with women (I mean this in a non-sexual way; it most helps in a professional setting TBQH) and more personal respect for yourself once you get out of a position where you have to rip somebody down to build yourself up.

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
Here's what it comes down to for a lot of women. They want to get involved in a gaming/nerdy hobby. But they have a look and see it dominated by tropes, images, and participants that make a lot of us cringe. [...] I think a better approach would be [for men to say] "This is an awesome hobby and we want you to feel welcome in it too, so we'll make it less weird for you by adding things that appeal to you, but we're still going to keep our big-boob panty ninjas."

It is always ideal for you that other people accommodate you. But this isn't ideal for them. If you have an interest in a hobby, but you find that you actually don't like much about it, then it's probably just not for you. If you really like it, you could attempt to change it up a bit so that you liked it even more. But demanding that everyone change what they like because you might be interested if all those changes are made ... well, that's rather absurd.

As for all this panty ninja business and this

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
I, and a lot of other women would say "Cool. Just drop the rape jokes and ask some of your guys to stop telling us to show our tits."

Are we still talking about war gaming? I think you're talking about 4chan instead. If all you want is not to be sexually harassed, well, good news you'll enjoy war gaming as things already are. People who think a certain sculpt constitutes sexual harassment and want to label any one who disagrees as a pervert chauvinist, however, might not fit in and I really disagree that "room should be made."

 Varrick wrote:

hands_miranda wrote:

 Varrick wrote:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:

 Varrick wrote:

What hostilities? If we are talking about the feminist frequency nonsense, well most gaming communities rose up and called her a hero after the youtube and 4chan trolling. Personally i think shes a professional victim with the way she rode the youtube comments to massive backing, but the point stands that when pressed to confront sexism in gaming "communities"(youtube is not a gaming community nor is it one singular community) they didn't behave like the worst scum of the internet. Youtube did, 4chan did, but most gaming sites did not.

Yes, the Feminist Frequency "nonsense." Yes, online a lot of people did rise to her defense. And that was grand. But I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Are you implying that she had no reason to complain in the first place? Or that women in general are just making it up when we complain about harassment within game cultures?

No, im saying FF played victim to gaming press and made YouTube trolling into more than it actually was. The issue i took was that the feminist frequency controversy was grounded in the idea that gamers themselves are sexist, and gaming media ran with it. But what part do you think im saying the complaints are worthless in? Well i think her complaints about the YouTube comments are worthless & disingenuous. Mainly because they were used to slander gaming communities in press from the escapist to the Huntington post, all because someone on YouTube decided to take YouTube comments as a personal attack instead of trolling. Not to say its wrong to make such comments, but its just as bad to handle them the way she did.
Do i think it worthless to complain about threats? no, provided we are talking about legitimate threats on your life. Not YouTube trolls by some idiot with bad humor.
Do i think women cant complain about representation in media? no, but the way sarkeesian is doing it was just preaching to her audience, instead of trying to change anything.
The harassment exists, but not anywhere near to the extent some people think it is.

I would appreciate you not acting like im some woman-hating monster, i spend enough time browsing YouTube comments to know where "you think women are making it up" goes.

You're talking about a game that made rape a joke. She and every women out there is the victim of that trivialization. Hell, men are hurt by it to, since it helps create the false narrative that they have to be a predator to get anywhere. Telling someone off for making that kind of game is no different than shaming a minstrel show out of existence for being racist.

You're talking to someone that thinks nothing is off limits in comedy. Not to say YouTube comments are comedy to anyone but the poster. But this wasnt telling off you tube commentators, it was telling off gamers for what YouTube commentators said.

As unappealing as those Youtube comments are, a lot of gamers mirror that. It's just a fact. There are reams of stories about the horrific ways that online gamers behave towards women (I've been subject to it myself) as well as platform gamers and probably (though to a lesser degree by far) tabletop gamers. There are a lot of misogynistic little pricks out there in games giving an extremely hard time to females who dare to venture into "male" hobbies.

 Las wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Las wrote:
FFS I just want female guardsmen.

If realistically proportioned female IG would be virtually identical to male ones then ... you already have them! At most, you could just get some conversion heads, right?

Point being that there's no reason I should have to search for extra heads. What if I want to play in GW sanctioned tourneys? Why can't GW themselves provide this?

But there's plenty of armies that have elements I don't like or even elements that should exist but don't, I don't see what's special about female IG models. I don't see it as some sexist agenda by GW to not include female IG models. They DO have mixed female/male models in many of the elven armies, they just haven't made any for guardsmen. They also dropped Squats, they also haven't updated the Wolf rider wolves for over 20 years, they also went without Fenrisian Wolf/Thunderwolf/Tervigon models for a long period after the Codices came out.

hands_miranda wrote:

Listen to yourself for a second. A women coming in and breaking up the old boy's club is the definition of what happens when male privilege starts to be broken up. It's a good thing, not a bad one. Men don't get to have their objectified metal women to place on the shelf and "safe space" to tell rape jokes any more racists get to have a "safe space" to tell their racist jokes and enjoy Birth of a Nation. Sorry it hurts your ego so much to have to actually treat the women you deal with on a daily basis as equals and not the flesh versions of your cheesecake art and figures. I will tell you once you get used to it and embrace it the benefits are huge-- more meaningful relationships with women (I mean this in a non-sexual way; it most helps in a professional setting TBQH) and more personal respect for yourself once you get out of a position where you have to rip somebody down to build yourself up.

People telling rape jokes at game stores are clearly in the wrong. Name them and shame them.

People using models that YOU think are sexist are not "treating women as flesh versions of cheesecake art and figures".

How the hell are you making that leap?

 Las wrote:
Insinuating that I think there's 'anti-woman conspiracy' is pretty extreme.

Sorry for the misattribution. I'm glad to hear you don't really think sexualized sculpts constitute an anti-woman agenda.

 Las wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:


They are welcome to "explore" a new hobby, and just like anyone else, they might find things they don't like which keep them from partaking in that hobby

The issue is that there is literally zero reason as to why this misrepresentation needs to continue.

Other than it's what the artist chooses to make and what the owner chooses to sell?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

hands_miranda wrote:

Listen to yourself for a second. A women coming in and breaking up the old boy's club is the definition of what happens when male privilege starts to be broken up. It's a good thing, not a bad one. Men don't get to have their objectified metal women to place on the shelf and "safe space" to tell rape jokes any more racists get to have a "safe space" to tell their racist jokes and enjoy Birth of a Nation. Sorry it hurts your ego so much to have to actually treat the women you deal with on a daily basis as equals and not the flesh versions of your cheesecake art and figures. I will tell you once you get used to it and embrace it the benefits are huge-- more meaningful relationships with women (I mean this in a non-sexual way; it most helps in a professional setting TBQH) and more personal respect for yourself once you get out of a position where you have to rip somebody down to build yourself up.

People telling rape jokes at game stores are clearly in the wrong. Name them and shame them.

People using models that YOU think are sexist are not "treating women as flesh versions of cheesecake art and figures".

How the hell are you making that leap?

^This exactly.

 Varrick wrote:
You're talking to someone that thinks nothing is off limits in comedy. Not to say YouTube comments are comedy to anyone but the poster. But this wasnt telling off you tube commentators, it was telling off gamers for what YouTube commentators said.

Considering gamers were the ones supporting the rape game through Kickstarter, I'd say it's appropriate. I'd also be a lot less worried about the "comedy" of the situation if it wasn't part of a narrative that is used to discredit victims of the certain crimes. Especially when these crimes have historically been unreported and unpunished.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

And we could all do with more art.

Sometimes a multiple breasted cock monster sticking it's winkle into multiple dead faced, massive breasted 'victim' women is just a multiple breasted cock monster sticking it's winkle into multiple dead faced, massive breasted 'victim' women...

Or would you paint it up and mount it (ahem) on the mantelpiece to show off to the neighbors, proclaiming it's worth as art?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

And we could all do with more art.

Sometimes a multiple breasted cock monster sticking it's winkle into multiple dead faced, massive breasted 'victim' women is just a multiple breasted cock monster sticking it's winkle into multiple dead faced, massive breasted 'victim' women...

Or would you paint it up and mount it (ahem) on the mantelpiece to show off to the neighbors, proclaiming it's worth as art?

I hate that stupid model. Very ugly. Not sure what the hell it's supposed to be used for...

Just to use GW as an example.

We have a universe where Space Marines, a faction that represents one of the rarest forms of Imperial Force is covered with 4 or 5 different books alone. This fact by itself should show that Male Models are more popular in terms of selling power.

You might see a change in kits having female and male components if we ever get a nice multi plastic Sisters of Battle release and it proves popular. There are so many other elements to be addressed model wise before then.

Until then, there is still the possibility of Sisters, but If you want to play an all female/mixed gender force relatively affordably there is the possibility to do this through the Eldar or Dark Eldar. They might not be human, but they are humanoid.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
Here's what it comes down to for a lot of women. They want to get involved in a gaming/nerdy hobby. But they have a look and see it dominated by tropes, images, and participants that make a lot of us cringe. [...] I think a better approach would be [for men to say] "This is an awesome hobby and we want you to feel welcome in it too, so we'll make it less weird for you by adding things that appeal to you, but we're still going to keep our big-boob panty ninjas."

It is always ideal for you that other people accommodate you. But this isn't ideal for them. If you have an interest in a hobby, but you find that you actually don't like much about it, then it's probably just not for you. If you really like it, you could attempt to change it up a bit so that you liked it even more. But demanding that everyone change what they like because you might be interested is rather absurd.

As for all this panty ninja business and this

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
I, and a lot of other women would say "Cool. Just drop the rape jokes and ask some of your guys to stop telling us to show our tits."

Are we still talking about war gaming? I think you're talking about 4chan instead. If all you want is not to be sexually harassed, well, good news you'll enjoy mostly war gaming as things already are. People who think a certain sculpt constitutes sexual harassment and want to label any one who disagrees as a pervert chauvinist, however, might not fit in and I really disagree that "room should be made."

See that's the thing. I'm certainly not demanding that anyone "change what they like." Not at all. Is that even possible? The demands of lady gamers boils down to options. I want to play X game, but maybe not play a model with FF boobs and a 24inch waist who wears a loincloth. So give me options.

I'm talking about gaming in a more broad sense. Rape jokes are pretty common, bandied about by players towards women and men alike.

I have to say, I'm pretty baffled by this idea that "Wargaming/gaming is a hobby for men." I'm just finding that to be odd and a little off putting.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

And we could all do with more art.

Sometimes a multiple breasted cock monster sticking it's winkle into multiple dead faced, massive breasted 'victim' women is just a multiple breasted cock monster sticking it's winkle into multiple dead faced, massive breasted 'victim' women...

Or would you paint it up and mount it (ahem) on the mantelpiece to show off to the neighbors, proclaiming it's worth as art?

I think I would put it right next to the Mapplethorps.

It's almost as if not everyone has identical views on art...

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Las wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:


They are welcome to "explore" a new hobby, and just like anyone else, they might find things they don't like which keep them from partaking in that hobby

The issue is that there is literally zero reason as to why this misrepresentation needs to continue.

Other than it's what the artist chooses to make and what the owner chooses to sell?

So why is there so much resistance to the idea of more female representation in miniatures in this thread? We'd have female guardsmen if more gamers were open to having them in their armies, but obviously they aren't. Why do you think that is? And don't say "that's just how it is" because that isn't sufficient.

This thread is full of people whose knee-jerk reaction to female gamer opinion is thinking that their hobby is under attack. That speaks volumes.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

I, and a lot of other women would say "Cool. Just drop the rape jokes and ask some of your guys to stop telling us to show our tits."

The problem here is that (and this echoes your earlier point), you're asking people to exercise control over people that... we don't know. That we don't associate with. To rebuke behavior that we would already rebuke.

This is the element of grievance I mentioned earlier: the things said to you by uncouth people were said because they are uncouth people.

I think this is the heart of the matter. Nobody, or at least nobody I'd consider a decent person, thinks that sexually hostile behavior is appropriate. It's tough to rebuke in person, and it's impossible to rebuke remotely.

So, the anger gets transferred. Yes, the neck beard at the gaming store made you feel bad. That's no reason to expect everybody to hate on a miniature that you don't like.

I am sure it's obnoxiously difficult for women to deal with some pockets of wargaming. There are pockets of wargaming that even my buddy and I avoid because of their level of dickishness. But that's the problem, or least the big one. The cup size of a miniature is simply not the problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:

See that's the thing. I'm certainly not demanding that anyone "change what they like." Not at all. Is that even possible? The demands of lady gamers boils down to options. I want to play X game, but maybe not play a model with FF boobs and a 24inch waist who wears a loincloth. So give me options.

Show me a game where that isn't' an option.

At some point, you're demand for options is no different than mine. I would like many things in the gaming world.

Mrs. Stompa, do you really run into a lot of gamers making rape jokes at game stores? That's pretty messed up.

 Las wrote:
...
So why is there so much resistance to the idea of more female representation in miniatures in this thread? We'd have female guardsmen if more gamers were open to having them in their armies, but obviously they aren't. Why do you think that is? And don't say "that's just how it is" because that isn't sufficient.

This thread is full of people whose knee-jerk reaction to female gamer opinion is thinking that their hobby is under attack. That speaks volumes.

Seriously, are you just making things up? This thread seems to be full of people who like all types of miniatures, including people that have funded major KS campaigns to make female miniatures.

It's full of people praising some companies for their inclusiveness and breadth of their ranges.

And it's full of condemnation for GW. The one company that seems utterly disinterested in making female miniatures.

It's also full of accusations hurled at the above people, where those that disagree on tiny matters are accused of deep and prevalent moral failings.

 Las wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Las wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:


They are welcome to "explore" a new hobby, and just like anyone else, they might find things they don't like which keep them from partaking in that hobby

The issue is that there is literally zero reason as to why this misrepresentation needs to continue.

Other than it's what the artist chooses to make and what the owner chooses to sell?

So why is there so much resistance to the idea of more female representation in miniatures in this thread? We'd have female guardsmen if more gamers were open to having them in their armies, but obviously they aren't. Why do you think that is? And don't say "that's just how it is" because that isn't sufficient.

This thread is full of people whose knee-jerk reaction to female gamer opinion is thinking that their hobby is under attack. That speaks volumes.

I don't really see that reaction though. I see people saying "you're right, YOU should do something about it to improve it," and defending their choice in what they enjoy. I personally would love to see some female faces on Imperial Guard, especially since it's in the lore and makes sense.

 Las wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Las wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:


They are welcome to "explore" a new hobby, and just like anyone else, they might find things they don't like which keep them from partaking in that hobby

The issue is that there is literally zero reason as to why this misrepresentation needs to continue.

Other than it's what the artist chooses to make and what the owner chooses to sell?

So why is there so much resistance to the idea of more female representation in miniatures in this thread? We'd have female guardsmen if more gamers were open to having them in their armies, but obviously they aren't. Why do you think that is? And don't say "that's just how it is" because that isn't sufficient.

This thread is full of people whose knee-jerk reaction to female gamer opinion is thinking that their hobby is under attack. That speaks volumes.

That's what's I'm trying to figure out. I'm sitting here talking with MGS and saying that I don't understand why Wargaming is a "men's hobby." Why? Why is it for men and not women? Why should women be told to go make their own games and own communities? I don't -want- separate womens and mens games and game communities.

It's a bit off putting, to be honest, to confront the attitude of "Well this is a hobby for men. You're not really welcome here. If you feel bothered by something, that's too bad because this isn't a hobby for women, so go find your own thing."

I feel like that can only be damaging to the hobby.

Also I feel like I need to say I was being to broad in my other posts, and including things like online and platform gaming in my statements, when in reality the communities are different animals.

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
But I think it's not a bad idea to discuss the issues of hostility towards feminism within gaming culture in a more broad sense.

So what do you think causes this hostility?

The self entitlement some of these feminists have even though men and women are pretty equal in today's western society; they think they can go into a male dominated hobby and expect sensorship just because they find things that men like offensive. Sure it would be nice to have games for women and a female gaming community, but instead of building a female gaming community and showing the games companies that they would like more inclusion in the industry, many feminists decide to bash on the games intended for men, which results in them getting no sympathy or support and hostility from the gaming community.

But let me ask you - why is it male dominated? Is it ok that it's male dominated? Why shouldn't women feel welcome in exploring a new hobby? I don't think I'm alone in saying that I don't want a separate "women's gaming community" or "women's games."

I don't think its ok that it's male dominated, heck, I wish there were more women in miniature wargaming and video gaming. I personally don't want separate gaming communities either. I think the problem is that even though society has made great progress in equality and acceptance of each other, there are still people who have a divide and conquer mentality which is usually created to isolate groups and make it easier for big companies to generate lazy products and get big cash. An example of this would be with Lego marketing Space-ships to boys and then selling pink Lego doll's houses to girls, it is a lazy product; they can spend little in research and development and hike up the prices. I think that this is essentially the same in nearly all industries including gaming and miniature wargaming/collecting.

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
The demands of lady gamers boils down to options. I want to play X game, but maybe not play a model with FF boobs and a 24inch waist who wears a loincloth. So give me options.

But if lady gamers don't have the collective cash, then no one will offer the options. You're position here makes some interesting assumptions. Companies should see that there are droves of women out there who want to play war games -- just not anything like the wargames they are currently not playing. So all those companies need to do is make the product women want and they'll be selling like hotcackes, right? Maybe so. I don't know. I don't really care, since I'm not part of that demographic. These are just products we're talking about, not the elements of self-worth or human dignity.

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
I have to say, I'm pretty baffled by this idea that "Wargaming/gaming is a hobby for men." I'm just finding that to be odd and a little off putting.

I'd also be baffled by that idea if it was some kind of abstract principle. Instead, it's a market fact. And in that sense, I'm not sure what there is to be baffled about. There's a difference between saying "GW makes most of its money off of male customers" and saying "40k/WHFB are male-only hobbies." In practice, however, we're talking about GW making products that its existing customer demographic wants to buy. More than anything else, that means Space Marines. For those of us who want to play Sisters, well, we have to wait and wait. For those who think the Sisters line are terrible, you have other options. For those who think those of us who like Sisters are evil and hate woman ... I guess I'd have to say "feth off." Like I said, hostility begets hostility.

 kronk wrote:

People telling rape jokes at game stores are clearly in the wrong. Name them and shame them.

People using models that YOU think are sexist are not "treating women as flesh versions of cheesecake art and figures".

How the hell are you making that leap?

I'm not sure why it matters if they're telling them in the gamestore or not. Name, shame, and remove the cancerous branch from the community no matter where they tell the jokes.

Can someone then explain the point of cheesecake/sexualized figures to me then? If you don't think viewing something repeatedly makes a difference in how you deal with people in real life, well I'd have to say that you're contradicting everything people know about psychology.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
Here's what it comes down to for a lot of women. They want to get involved in a gaming/nerdy hobby. But they have a look and see it dominated by tropes, images, and participants that make a lot of us cringe. [...] I think a better approach would be [for men to say] "This is an awesome hobby and we want you to feel welcome in it too, so we'll make it less weird for you by adding things that appeal to you, but we're still going to keep our big-boob panty ninjas."

It is always ideal for you that other people accommodate you. But this isn't ideal for them. If you have an interest in a hobby, but you find that you actually don't like much about it, then it's probably just not for you. If you really like it, you could attempt to change it up a bit so that you liked it even more. But demanding that everyone change what they like because you might be interested if all those changes are made ... well, that's rather absurd.

As for all this panty ninja business and this

 Mrs. Stompa wrote:
I, and a lot of other women would say "Cool. Just drop the rape jokes and ask some of your guys to stop telling us to show our tits."

Are we still talking about war gaming? I think you're talking about 4chan instead. If all you want is not to be sexually harassed, well, good news you'll enjoy war gaming as things already are. People who think a certain sculpt constitutes sexual harassment and want to label any one who disagrees as a pervert chauvinist, however, might not fit in and I really disagree that "room should be made."

Manchu, I hope your last sentence isn't referring to Mrs Stompa. Both sides can disagree without labeling "everyone" on the other side a certain way.

There's certainly room for female minis to be less sexualized, and for wargaming to be more sensitive to women in general.

Frankly, as a man I don't think you can really see a woman's perspective, and I'd be much more inclined to listen to Mrs Stompa, or my wife, who express very similar views. And, you know, are women, saying how something in the hobby affects them.

 kronk wrote:
Mrs. Stompa, do you really run into a lot of gamers making rape jokes at game stores? That's pretty messed up.

Yeah, I gotta say, this would not fly at the stores near me and certainly not in my gaming group.