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Nice and simple:

Can I deploy my entire army via deathwing assault on turn 1 (if it's all deathwing), or am I restricted by the 50% on the table rule? I guess im asking if deathwing assault works in the same way as pods, in that as long as they arrive turn one, you can start in reserve.

LOL you better enter some of your army in turn one or you loose.

Also your HQ's must also have the Deathwing Assault rule in order to Deathwing Assault.

HQs wearing terminator armour gain the deathwing assault special rule. Deathwing assault allows you to deploy by deep strike on turn 1 or 2 (you choose).

I thought the wording changed on termie armour taking away the may always start in reserve clause. If so, only 50% would be able to start in reserve.

I don't have the codex to hand - the reason I ask is that it just says in Deathwing assault that "you can choose", so i'm not sure if this overrides the 50% restriction or not.

They have the option to start on the table, so you are still limited to the 50% rule. Having said that, I wouldn't want to play a list with no heavy support options in it.

here are the two rules in question:

page 65 Terminator Armour
Termi Armour confers a 2+/5++.
Termies are Bulky, Relentless, can't Sweep Advance and have Deep Strike.

Characters in Termie Armour gain Deathwing Assault and Vengeful Strike rules.

Page 44 Deathwing Assault
Whole unit must this rule and Termie Armour and can choose to make DW Assault. Immediately after Warlord Traits, tell your opponent that you will be making a DW Assault, and make a secret note as to which turn (1 or 2) they will come in. All units making a DW Assault auto arrive via DS on the chosen turn, no need to roll for reserves.

So, yes you can have an all DW Army and make a DW Assault buuuuuut if you do that they will all have to enter via DS on turn 1 or you loose. Simple as that

40k-noob wrote:
here are the two rules in question:

page 65 Terminator Armour
Termi Armour confers a 2+/5++.
Termies are Bulky, Relentless, can't Sweep Advance and have Deep Strike.

Characters in Termie Armour gain Deathwing Assault and Vengeful Strike rules.

Page 44 Deathwing Assault
Whole unit must this rule and Termie Armour and can choose to make DW Assault. Immediately after Warlord Traits, tell your opponent that you will be making a DW Assault, and make a secret note as to which turn (1 or 2) that unit will come in. All units making a DW Assault auto arrive via DS on the chosen turn, no need to roll for reserves.

So, yes you can have an all DW Army and make a DW Assault buuuuuut if you do that they will all have to enter via DS on turn 1 or you loose. Simple as that

that was my interpretation too.

40k -no, it does not mean your entire force could be in reserves, as it states half your FORCE may go into reserve. Unless you are claiming that their presence in reserves makes them not part of your force, you are still limited by the requirement to not reserve more than 50% of your force.

Also, 3 page thread about this, not too far down.

It also says things that start in transports that start off the table are not included in this percentage nor are the transports themselves.

So Technically running the right Necron or Guard list could legally start with everything off the table.

They just lose at the end of the first turn because they don't come in until turn 2.

However, with deathwing assault it says the unit MAY, not MUST, so by my reading of the rule 50% of your force has to start on the table.

Still, have them be bikes and you're all set!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
40k -no, it does not mean your entire force could be in reserves, as it states half your FORCE may go into reserve. Unless you are claiming that their presence in reserves makes them not part of your force, you are still limited by the requirement to not reserve more than 50% of your force.

Also, 3 page thread about this, not too far down.

No I am claiming that Codex trumps BRB in this case.

I am asserting that DW Assault rules is very specific and being a Codex rule trumps the 50% rule of the BRB.

Find the rule stating more than 50% of the army may start in reserve if they are using DWA

Page and paragraph, or you dont have an argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Find the rule stating more than 50% of the army may start in reserve if they are using DWA

Page and paragraph, or you dont have an argument.

The DW Assault rule pg 44 of the Codex, 1st para.

Codex doesn't say they must start in reserves. BRB says that up to half of your force may start in reserve (not including models that MUST start in reserve and that models aboard a transport that must start in reserve to not count either.)

Lets forget about transports because they are not directly relevant to the DW.

I cannot find anywhere in the codex that states you must keep them in reserves, simply rules changing when you declare that it is in reserves the way DS (option not to scatter) and reserve availability (not needing to roll) works.

The only part of that, that is relevant is the reserves, there is no note about timing anywhere in BRB or DA dex that seems to indicate that it matter when you put something in reserves that would change the 50% limit.

Please quote what in the DA codex overrides the %50 rule or specifically excludes DWA from counting towards that 50%

In my area, we just decided that one should still have to field 50% on board. Not that that matters that much. just an excuse to field Land Raiders.

40k-noob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Find the rule stating more than 50% of the army may start in reserve if they are using DWA

Page and paragraph, or you dont have an argument.

The DW Assault rule pg 44 of the Codex, 1st para.

So, the part which says nothing about the 50% rule apparently overrides the 50% rule, despite meeting none of the criteria for overriding the 50% rule

Interesting argument.

I think this is a case where if it were meant to override that rule they would have put it in there, or at least put it in the IOS digital version.

RAW it's a no go sorry.
RAI... they want to sell bike models, (hence all of the teleport homers) so i doubt that they want it that way either

There is no need to specify the "50%" rule in everything that involves reserves.

There is a conflict between the 50% rule and the DW Assault rule, IF, your whole army has DW Assault AND you wish to make use of it.

In that very unique situation, the codex trumps BRB and thus can start the game in Reserve and arrive via DS turn 1

No 40k.

If you MUST put a unit in reserve, there is no choice. DW Assault says you can choose.

If units MUST start in reserve, then they dont count toward the 50%.

If units can CHOOSE, they do count the 50%. DW Assault allows you to choose, thus counts towards the 50%.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
No 40k.

If you MUST put a unit in reserve, there is no choice. DW Assault says you can choose.

If units MUST start in reserve, then they dont count toward the 50%.

If units can CHOOSE, they do count the 50%. DW Assault allows you to choose, thus counts towards the 50%.

The 50% rule will break the DW Assault rule in the rare case that a player fileds an ALL DW Army and wants to use it.

Lets set an example to help illustrate.
DW ARMY

HQ (Belial) in TDA attached to a DW Command SQ
Troops - 2x DW Termies (10 each)
Elites - 2x DW Knights (10 each)
FA - 3x Neph Fighters

In this Army you have 5 units that count towards the 50% rule.

According to you, only 3 of them can DW assault the other 2 must start on the table turn 1 correct?

If you are right, then remaining 2 units can no longer "choose" to DW Assault. This goes against the DW Assault rule.

This what what is called a "conflict" and the BRB is clear that in these rare cases the Codex rule wins out.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
No 40k.

If you MUST put a unit in reserve, there is no choice. DW Assault says you can choose.

If units MUST start in reserve, then they dont count toward the 50%.

If units can CHOOSE, they do count the 50%. DW Assault allows you to choose, thus counts towards the 50%.

Seconded. There is nothing in the DWA rule that says you *must* put them in reserve, only that you *may*. Therefore, they count to the 50%, so you have to have another 50% on the table somewhere before the start of the first turn. THEN they can come in from reserves on turn 1.

Easy as pie...even to a 40k-noob.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

SCP Yeeman wrote:
No 40k.

If you MUST put a unit in reserve, there is no choice. DW Assault says you can choose.

If units MUST start in reserve, then they dont count toward the 50%.

If units can CHOOSE, they do count the 50%. DW Assault allows you to choose, thus counts towards the 50%.

The 50% rule will break the DW Assault rule in the rare case that a player fileds an ALL DW Army and wants to use it.

Lets set an example to help illustrate.
DW ARMY

HQ (Belial) in TDA attached to a DW Command SQ
Troops - 2x DW Termies (10 each)
Elites - 2x DW Knights (10 each)
FA - 3x Neph Fighters

In this Army you have 5 units that count towards the 50% rule.

According to you, only 3 of them can DW assault the other 2 must start on the table turn 1 correct?

If you are right, then remaining 2 units can no longer "choose" to DW Assault. This goes against the DW Assault rule.

This what what is called a "conflict" and the BRB is clear that in these rare cases the Codex rule wins out.

That looks right, and it doesn't violate anything having to do with the DWA rule. You put 2 on the table turn 1, and the other 3 in reserve. Just because they have the DWA rule doesn't mean they HAVE to use it, that's the point.

DWA is exactly the same as keeping any other unit in reserves, all units have the option of starting in reserves. You still can't put them all there you can choose. Therefore any of the units can still choose to start in reserves as long as you choose to leave at least 50^ rounded down starting on the board.

The conflict occurs when Daemons say they must all start in reserves and the BRB says that only have can. (notice the word MUST) here is an example where the codex overrules the BRB.

 jegsar wrote:
DWA is exactly the same as keeping any other unit in reserves, all units have the option of starting in reserves. You still can't put them all there you can choose. Therefore any of the units can still choose to start in reserves as long as you choose to leave at least 50^ rounded down starting on the board.

The conflict occurs when Daemons say they must all start in reserves and the BRB says that only have can. (notice the word MUST) here is an example where the codex overrules the BRB.

Actually, I think even then they made a special note in the FAQ of how Daemon's are exempt from the 50% rule.

 jegsar wrote:
DWA is exactly the same as keeping any other unit in reserves, all units have the option of starting in reserves. You still can't put them all there you can choose. Therefore any of the units can still choose to start in reserves as long as you choose to leave at least 50^ rounded down starting on the board.

The conflict occurs when Daemons say they must all start in reserves and the BRB says that only have can. (notice the word MUST) here is an example where the codex overrules the BRB.

No, it is not. Reserves are a BRB rule that apply to all armies.

This a Codex Rule that is specific to DW, not even other units in the codex have this rule.

Regardless, I have made my case and I am not going to make this in to a XX page thread about it.

Folks can read my example and make up their own mind

Yes, and your case is flawed because you dont have a rule that overrides the reserves rule.

The argument against is clear and rules based, your argument is not one based on rules

BRB: Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.

If a Codex does not say a unit "must" start in Reserve (that's Reserve, not Deep Strike, not Outflank, not any other special rule) there is no correlation, and therefore no conflict.

Im asking this because I dont have the DA codex, but as a GK player I know in my TDA rules it states:

"May always deepstrike even in missions blah blah" Im assuming the DA dex does not have this wording which would be the 1st codex without it yes? If it states "Units in TDA may always arrive via DS then I would argue they all could start in reserve, as "always" implies well...always and trumps the 50% rule. Short of that I see no argument. DW armies can only reserve 50%

I still stand by the fact that you determine if a model may be put in reserve during deployment per the reserve rules. DWA happens before deployment of your army. Hence by the time you would make the decision to deploy or reserve the unit must start in reserve.

Don't care, not playing a full Deathwing army (or maybe even one with a single unit), but I'd allow it and I'm pretty sure that's the way it's going to get ruled.

That's just it. GK in TDA "may" always arrive in DS. Not "must". The 5th ed Codices in this manner were based on the old 5th ed missions where some missions did not allow Deep Strike to be used. In those missions, TDA could still Deep Strike if they were in Reserve.

You're emphasizing the wrong word. May is one thing but it's followed with "always." May always includes overwriting anything that would exclude its use such as reserve restrictions. "May" simply gives it the option to start on the field as well as reserve for DS.