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I can't compare "must" and "always". One is an auxiliary verb and the other is an adverb. Therefore I am comparing the right words, "must" and "may".

Except that GK Terminators may always DS.

if you have draigo and a bunch of paladins they may always deep strike (This overrides anything that says they can't).

If you stop some of the teminators from DSing you break the rule that says they may always DS.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I still stand by the fact that you determine if a model may be put in reserve during deployment per the reserve rules. DWA happens before deployment of your army. Hence by the time you would make the decision to deploy or reserve the unit must start in reserve.

Don't care, not playing a full Deathwing army (or maybe even one with a single unit), but I'd allow it and I'm pretty sure that's the way it's going to get ruled.

50% of your forces may start in reserve. Is your DWA part of your forces? "Must" it start in reserves? Yes and No

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I still stand by the fact that you determine if a model may be put in reserve during deployment per the reserve rules. DWA happens before deployment of your army. Hence by the time you would make the decision to deploy or reserve the unit must start in reserve.

Don't care, not playing a full Deathwing army (or maybe even one with a single unit), but I'd allow it and I'm pretty sure that's the way it's going to get ruled.

50% of your forces may start in reserve. Is your DWA part of your forces? "Must" it start in reserves? Yes and No

Yes, it "must" start in reserves if you have declared it to be making a Deathwing Assault prior to deployment.

You're only going to get the same answers here from proponents of the oversized Deathwing Assault as in the last thread, there's a clear difference of opinion for what constitutes being forced into reserves.

@Drunkspleen

I know, but I couldn't help throwing it in.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Yes, it "must" start in reserves if you have declared it to be making a Deathwing Assault prior to deployment.
.

So if I take a codex space marine all infantry (and one drop pod*) army led by Khan, who grants outflank to all units with combat tactics I can declare my units are outflanking and get around the 50% rule as to outflank I must start in reserve?

*the drop pod is there to make sure I don't auto lose at the end of game turn 1

ItsPug wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Yes, it "must" start in reserves if you have declared it to be making a Deathwing Assault prior to deployment.
.

So if I take a codex space marine all infantry (and one drop pod*) army led by Khan, who grants outflank to all units with combat tactics I can declare my units are outflanking and get around the 50% rule as to outflank I must start in reserve?

*the drop pod is there to make sure I don't auto lose at the end of game turn 1

No, because when khan allows them to outflank happens at the deployment step, while death wing assault happens immediatly after warlord traits are chosen. I am not saying you can or you can't, only that these two situations are not comparable.

Can someone quote the actual text of the relevant rule from the DA and compare it to the text of say... the Daemons dex/FAQ?
There is some logic to it in the sense that you need to declare which ones are DSing before even the roll for first turn.
This means that if the opponent wins the roll they can go first and already know your deployment or can force you to go first because they want to have last turn/more turns of shooting you.
However there is an argument that you can't choose to put more then half of them in reserves if you are able to deploy them.

You don't have to be a genius to figure this out, I don't know why the argument's gone on for more than the first couple of replies. The rules are very clear on Reserves and Deep Strike. If a unit wishes to take advantage of Deathwing Assault (with the case in point being that it doesn't have to) then the player is making the choice to place it in Reserve and it is henceforth bound by the rules of Reserve and the 50% tabletop allocation. Just because the DW Assault rule goes on to say the player chooses which turn it Deep Strikes instead of rolling for it as normal, doesn't mean the game rules for Reserve are null and void. Deathwing Assault is essentially overruling the Deep Strike rule of rolling to enter battle, not the 50% in Reserve rule. I certainly wouldn't let any player leave his entire Force in Reserve unless their rules stated that they MUST start in Reserve. In this case they do not, the player is choosing to put them all in reserve and is therefore breaking the rules.

I play Grey Knights and I have a HQ and attachment called Mordrak who can enter Reserve and Deep Strike without scatter on turn 1 if he wants to. He and his unit still count towards the Reserve allocation and the 50% rule because he's choosing to Deep Strike instead of choosing to walk onto the table. The exact same principle applies to the Deathwing.

Not that I want DA to win this argument but it's not the same. DWA is declared before the deployment step when setting up a game and states that these models DS. It happens right after the warlord trait is rolled but still before the deployment phase. Now if it said right before you start deploying models, i would agree 1000% but there is a disadvantage to the DA player having to declare not what turn but that his entire army is deep striking before you deploy and before he even knows if he is going first or second.

I firmly believe that the advantage in the DW Assault rule is simply intended to be that the player chooses when they arrive instead of having to roll them in, not that the player can put his entire army in Reserve.

The point is that units that MUST arrive via Deep Strike have no choice but to enter Reserve. If an entire army MUST arrive via Deep Strike then it's impossible for them to have 50% on the tabletop and I'd happily allow it. In the case of Deathwing Terminators however, the player makes the choice whether to start on the table or not (just like all other Terminators), and therefore you're breaking the rules if you don't have 50% of your force on the tabletop, because it's possible for you to do so.

Page 121 - determining Warlord traits is part of the Deployment section. Immediately after that you deploy forces - so there's no "in between" time.

DWA must be declared during Deployment, but before you deploy any models.

The rules says "choose to make Deathwing Assault" and with page 121 the idea that you can ignore the DWA when it comes to your 50% limit is kinda dead.

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 121 - determining Warlord traits is part of the Deployment section. Immediately after that you deploy forces - so there's no "in between" time.

DWA must be declared during Deployment, but before you deploy any models.

Thank you for finding that, reason i thought differently is because i always read The Game Summery section at the back where it goes warlord, psykers, and then talks about deploying.
Then yes there is no doubt about it, you can only put half rounded up in reserves so with 5 squads at least 2 must start on the board. Can't wait for 7th when you can teleport off the board and then come back on like swooping hawks!

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 121 - determining Warlord traits is part of the Deployment section. Immediately after that you deploy forces - so there's no "in between" time.

DWA must be declared during Deployment, but before you deploy any models.

I disagree, there are absolutely undefined time periods, for example, the start of the turn is before the start of the movement phase, but in a normal turn structure you go straight into the movement phase, it doesn't matter though it is still possible and indeed mandatory for start of turn events to trigger before you are in the movement phase.

The same applies here, immediately after determining warlord traits means as soon as warlord traits have been determined, before you move onto any other game phase, you declare Deathwing Assault, if you move onto the deployment phase, you haven't declared it immediately after determining warlord traits.

Except warlord traits are determined in the deployment phase, per page 121.
Which is why I cited it. Did you even look at the page?

rigeld2 wrote:
Except warlord traits are determined in the deployment phase, per page 121.
Which is why I cited it. Did you even look at the page?

but before you get to the deployment step where you declare reserves.

And by the way, no - start of turn events trigger at the beginning of the movement phase, not before it.

pg 124, Reserves

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

When you DWA you are declare they are deep striking and therefore choosing to keep them in reserves (note that it's not called deploying them in reserves)

Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so

They are choosing to start in reserves instead of deploying as normal during the deployment phase.
They have the option to deploy to the table before the game started.
If you are rolling dice already have have setup the fortifications the game must be in progress, therefore you can only choose to keep up to half of them (rounded up) in reserves.

The 50% on the tabletop rule applies no matter which way you slice it, unless the unit's rule specifically says it circumvents it (as with the rules for units that MUST Deep Strike). You can't put an entire Deathwing army in Reserve because they don't have to Deep Strike, the player chooses to do so, it's as simple an clear cut as that.

Unless the DW Assault rule is FAQ'd to clearly make it circumvent BRB Reserve rules, I'll consider those that feel they can attempt to put an entire DW army in Reserve to quite frankly be trying to gain an unfair advantage over their opponent by breaking the Reserve rules.

I play in friendly gaming circles where people have common sense though, so it shouldn't be a problem!

If i am playing hordes and i pretty much know this is their plan from before deploying terrain.... Well it'll be a fun day for me.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Except warlord traits are determined in the deployment phase, per page 121.
Which is why I cited it. Did you even look at the page?

but before you get to the deployment step where you declare reserves.

which is still part of Deployment. Meaning by the time you get to REserves you have still CHOSEN, as part of deployment, to put them in reserves

They were not forced there, any more than declaring outflank forces something into reserves.

I think the dividing line in this argument is between those who understand language and those who don't. "Must" and "May" are two different words, no matter how you translate them.

You are declaring reserves a little earlier but where does it say you get to ignore the rules for declaring reserves?

 Celtic Strike wrote:
It also says things that start in transports that start off the table are not included in this percentage nor are the transports themselves.

That only applies to transports that MUST start in reerves, not to any transport that you choose to start in reserves.

Allright here are my 2 cents.

You can either deploy on the table or in reserve. There is no magical third spot in limbo called Deathwing Assault waiting spot.

DW Terminators can either Deep Strike normally, Deep Strike via Deathwing Assault which negates the need to roll, Start on the board, Start in a dedicated transport on the board, walk on the board from reserves, drive in from reserve in a dedicated transport.

Drop pods are not allowed to start on the board and flyers are not allowed to start on the board. Not allowed period, no choice, no may, ifs or buts. DW Terminators ALWAYS have a CHOICE.

Now that being said all these possibilities mean that they MAY start in reserve but are not FORCED. Unless there is a rule in the DA codex which states the 50% rule does not apply, there is no reason not to apply it.

While Codex does trump rulebook, nowhere does it say that the 50% rules does not apply or that Deathwing assault ignores the OTHER reserves rule besides the roll for arrival.

 jegsar wrote:
You are declaring reserves a little earlier but where does it say you get to ignore the rules for declaring reserves?

Because you are not actually declaring reserves. The book simply says "making a Deathwing Assault". You don't choose to reserve them, you choose to Deathwing Assault, which is functionally different from reserves. That's why I'm thinking you can Deathwing Assault your entire army. It's not a form of reserves, from the text in my codex...

I may be reading too much into it, but that's how it reads.

It is not functionally different, it IS reserves. Read the whole rule, and reference the DS rules which state you are in reserve, then try again

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is not functionally different, it IS reserves. Read the whole rule, and reference the DS rules which state you are in reserve, then try again

If we're going to start being dicks about it, it is functionally different. Reserves NEVER come in turn one. Deathwing Assault does. Functional difference.

If you want to be less of an ass, I'd be happy to carry on a civil conversation.

Mordrak. Try again.
Drop Pods. Try again

the point is you ARE IN RESERVES, because it tells you you are in the DS rule AND in DWA