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rigeld2 wrote:
And by the way, no - start of turn events trigger at the beginning of the movement phase, not before it.

Given the recent FAQ regarding this timing issue (dealing specifically with psychic powers) I have to revise my stance on Deathwing Assault, it seems that things that happen immediately following determining warlord traits do fall within the confines of the deployment step wherein you normally declare reserves.

As such, there is no difference between declaring a Deathwing Assault or declaring a normal Deep Strike, both units at some point had the chance to deploy but declined it.

Deathwing Assault changes the way in which you arrive from reserve, not the rules on what can be put in reserve.
If your force is 100% terminators then 50% will be footing it

I am curious as to why drop pod armies can reserve their entire force, but DWA cannot.

Normally you would only be able to drop pod half of your army, as the units do not need to start in the drop pod -- which seems like a corollary to the DWA argument that units do not need to DWA (and can thus be started on the table instead, and thus only 50% of your units can be in reserve and DWA).

Since they explicitly FAQ'd drop pods to ignore the 50% rule I guess we're just waiting for the same sort of FAQ update to allow full DWA?

quiestdeus wrote:
I am curious as to why drop pod armies can reserve their entire force, but DWA cannot.

Normally you would only be able to drop pod half of your army, as the units do not need to start in the drop pod -- which seems like a corollary to the DWA argument that units do not need to DWA (and can thus be started on the table instead, and thus only 50% of your units can be in reserve and DWA).

Since they explicitly FAQ'd drop pods to ignore the 50% rule I guess we're just waiting for the same sort of FAQ update to allow full DWA?

Drop Pods don't count because they must start in reserve, they have no permission to deploy on the table.

 Happyjew wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:
I am curious as to why drop pod armies can reserve their entire force, but DWA cannot.

Normally you would only be able to drop pod half of your army, as the units do not need to start in the drop pod -- which seems like a corollary to the DWA argument that units do not need to DWA (and can thus be started on the table instead, and thus only 50% of your units can be in reserve and DWA).

Since they explicitly FAQ'd drop pods to ignore the 50% rule I guess we're just waiting for the same sort of FAQ update to allow full DWA?

Drop Pods don't count because they must start in reserve, they have no permission to deploy on the table.

Sure, the drop pod must start in reserve, the but the unit does not. You can absolutely start a unit outside of its dedicated transport - which is why they FAQ'd in the exception.

quiestdeus wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:
I am curious as to why drop pod armies can reserve their entire force, but DWA cannot.

Normally you would only be able to drop pod half of your army, as the units do not need to start in the drop pod -- which seems like a corollary to the DWA argument that units do not need to DWA (and can thus be started on the table instead, and thus only 50% of your units can be in reserve and DWA).

Since they explicitly FAQ'd drop pods to ignore the 50% rule I guess we're just waiting for the same sort of FAQ update to allow full DWA?

Drop Pods don't count because they must start in reserve, they have no permission to deploy on the table.

Sure, the drop pod must start in reserve, the but the unit does not. You can absolutely start a unit outside of its dedicated transport - which is why they FAQ'd in the exception.

Which there is not for the DW, so they dont get to be excepted.

They also didnt FAQ in Drop Pods, the basic rules state that ANY unit embarked in a unit that MUST start in reserve does not count. Basic RB rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:
I am curious as to why drop pod armies can reserve their entire force, but DWA cannot.

Normally you would only be able to drop pod half of your army, as the units do not need to start in the drop pod -- which seems like a corollary to the DWA argument that units do not need to DWA (and can thus be started on the table instead, and thus only 50% of your units can be in reserve and DWA).

Since they explicitly FAQ'd drop pods to ignore the 50% rule I guess we're just waiting for the same sort of FAQ update to allow full DWA?

Drop Pods don't count because they must start in reserve, they have no permission to deploy on the table.

Sure, the drop pod must start in reserve, the but the unit does not. You can absolutely start a unit outside of its dedicated transport - which is why they FAQ'd in the exception.

Which there is not for the DW, so they dont get to be excepted.

They also didnt FAQ in Drop Pods, the basic rules state that ANY unit embarked in a unit that MUST start in reserve does not count. Basic RB rule.

I have to agree that going by RAW a player may not DWA his entire army. I don't for one moment believe that was the intention though, but was most likely an oversight on the part of the editors. I hope that this gets clarified in a future FAQ

Why would that NOT be the intention? There isnt even the SLIGHTEST hint that they want you to be able to break a core 6th edition rule.

It really seems that RAW, there is nothing to override the 50% deployment rule in the DW assault rule. The DW assault rule lacks a specific statement that specifically overrides normal deployment rules.

Sorry to take a bunny trail, but I have a similar question with deathwing assault. Just got a game in yesterday where 4 units came in T1 and 3 units came in T2.

Does the "Deathwing Assault" refer to individual units or the army as a whole? From my first read of it kinda sounds like all the termies have to drop in on the same turn.

All of the terminators chosen as part of "DWA" must come in on the turn specified
Any terminators in reserves NOT as part of DWA come in on reserve rolls as normal

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Which there is not for the DW, so they dont get to be excepted.

Do not get me wrong, I agree with you. DW must keep 50% of their force on the table.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

They also didnt FAQ in Drop Pods, the basic rules state that ANY unit embarked in a unit that MUST start in reserve does not count. Basic RB rule.

However, this was also the case when 6th was released for drop pod armies. Hence this from page 8 of the BRB FAQ:

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No.

Just because a unit buys a drop pod does not mean they have to start in it and thus have to be ignored. I am not arguing intent or anything, I do not play Dark Angels and likely never will, I'm just pointing out that a similar situation has been ruled to allow drop pod armies to exist, it may also occur for DW armies as (and I could be wrong) I thought in the old codex you could DWA your entire force.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why would that NOT be the intention? There isnt even the SLIGHTEST hint that they want you to be able to break a core 6th edition rule.

Because fluff-wise, the DW is a small elite force that teleports into the thick of battle.

quiestdeus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

They also didnt FAQ in Drop Pods, the basic rules state that ANY unit embarked in a unit that MUST start in reserve does not count. Basic RB rule.

However, this was also the case when 6th was released for drop pod armies. Hence this from page 8 of the BRB FAQ:

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No.

Just because a unit buys a drop pod does not mean they have to start in it and thus have to be ignored. I am not arguing intent or anything, I do not play Dark Angels and likely never will, I'm just pointing out that a similar situation has been ruled to allow drop pod armies to exist, it may also occur for DW armies as (and I could be wrong) I thought in the old codex you could DWA your entire force.

This was not the case for drop pods.

The BRB actually covered this for drop pods, the FaQ clearly only refers to Flyers. The FaQ was clearly not talking about Drop pods.

"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored." P. 36

Units embarked on drop pods have always been ignored.

50% on the board is correct. DWA does not give you permission to break this rule. It is why a pure Deathwing army is much harder to play now.

The closest I have come to getting old school wing performance is 3 SB/PF squads on the table at the start of turn and Belial with 1 TH/SS squad and 1 Command Squad DS'ing turn 1.

My old setup with a DW command squad and 4 TH/SS squads. Suround and squash. The new one is not nearly as beardy but still works.

 DeathReaper wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

They also didnt FAQ in Drop Pods, the basic rules state that ANY unit embarked in a unit that MUST start in reserve does not count. Basic RB rule.

However, this was also the case when 6th was released for drop pod armies. Hence this from page 8 of the BRB FAQ:

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No.

Just because a unit buys a drop pod does not mean they have to start in it and thus have to be ignored. I am not arguing intent or anything, I do not play Dark Angels and likely never will, I'm just pointing out that a similar situation has been ruled to allow drop pod armies to exist, it may also occur for DW armies as (and I could be wrong) I thought in the old codex you could DWA your entire force.

This was not the case for drop pods.

The BRB actually covered this for drop pods, the FaQ clearly only refers to Flyers. The FaQ was clearly not talking about Drop pods.

"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored." P. 36

Units embarked on drop pods have always been ignored.

What?

 Zande4 wrote:
What?

Units embarked on drop pods ignore the 50% rule. (P. 36)

 helium42 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why would that NOT be the intention? There isnt even the SLIGHTEST hint that they want you to be able to break a core 6th edition rule.

Because fluff-wise, the DW is a small elite force that teleports into the thick of battle.

That *sometimes* teleports into battle. Not *always*, fluffwise. Yes, I have read all the fluff, including every BL novel.

Units the have to deepstrike, including any units embarked upon them, were never counted. Just because DP were mentioned in an FAQ did not mean that FAQ created a new rule - it reminded you of the existing rule in this case

Correct me when I am wrong-the rule saying you may only reserve half your force is only in effect when deploying your army. It is not in effect before this, such as when your opponent is deploying their army, or before that when rolling to determine deployment, or before that when using deathwing assault, or before that when rolling for warlord trait.

It is also not in effect after you deploy your army, such on turn 1 when over half your army ends up in reserve due to some ability or power or some such.

DevianID wrote:
Correct me when I am wrong-the rule saying you may only reserve half your force is only in effect when deploying your army. It is not in effect before this, such as when your opponent is deploying their army, or before that when rolling to determine deployment, or before that when using deathwing assault, or before that when rolling for warlord trait.

It is also not in effect after you deploy your army, such on turn 1 when over half your army ends up in reserve due to some ability or power or some such.

Since you roll Warlord traits during the Deployment phase, "immediately after" that is still - wait for it.

Wait...

In the deployment phase. Just like the last thread this was discussed.

What I think Devian meant to ask was, at which step does the 50% rule take effect.
Since the steps for setting up and starting a game go as follows:

Build you Army(List making)
Roll for or Choose a Mission
Roll or Choose a Deployment Map
Deploy Fortifications, if any
Deploy Terrain
Deploy Objective Markers, if any
Determine Warlord Traits
Generate Psyker Powers
Deploy Army
Seize Attempt

Start playing

What Devian is asking is since reserves are determine in the "Deploy Army" step, does it still affect things that happen prior to that step such as between the "Determin Warlord Traits" step and the "Generate Psykers" step?

FYI, I took the steps directly from page 424 of the BRB or Fist page of the Game Summary section of little rulebook.

Also for the record, there is no "Deployment Phase."
There is a section of the BRB that is called "Deployment" but there are no phases prior to the game starting. There is only a "setting up" of the "game" or "Preparing for Battle" as the summary.
Those that say "...in the deployment phase...." are using an incorrect term.

40k-noob wrote:
What I think Devian meant to ask was, at which step does the 50% rule take effect.

All of them.

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What I think Devian meant to ask was, at which step does the 50% rule take effect.

All of them.

where do you get that conclusion from?

40k-noob wrote:

Determine Warlord Traits
Generate Psyker Powers
Deploy Army

If we're going to nit pick, the bolded can occur any time prior to deploying forces (page 418) and its "Deploy Forces" not "Deploy Army" (page 121)

Also for the record, there is no "Deployment Phase."
There is a section of the BRB that is called "Deployment" but there are no phases prior to the game starting. There is only a "setting up" of the "game" or "Preparing for Battle" as the summary.
Those that say "...in the deployment phase...." are using an incorrect term.

For the record, there is zero reason to point this out. There's a deployment section (page 121) that includes both Warlord Traits and Deploy Forces. Section, phase, period of time, zebblebrot - it doesn't matter what you call it. They are part of the same step.
A for effort though - well done.

Fluffwise, well on the table next to you there is a guy playing with 100 DW and so are you, that is the entire DW army... What about my army???

RAW, sorry that is how it is written and that they must come at the same time.

Balance... do i need to explain the difference between <1 point per model for the ability to DWA? vs 2 points per model for a drop pod? yes i realize they are safer but so many 1.7ppm. about 10% extra

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

Determine Warlord Traits
Generate Psyker Powers
Deploy Army

If we're going to nit pick, the bolded can occur any time prior to deploying forces (page 418) and its "Deploy Forces" not "Deploy Army" (page 121)

Also for the record, there is no "Deployment Phase."
There is a section of the BRB that is called "Deployment" but there are no phases prior to the game starting. There is only a "setting up" of the "game" or "Preparing for Battle" as the summary.
Those that say "...in the deployment phase...." are using an incorrect term.

For the record, there is zero reason to point this out. There's a deployment section (page 121) that includes both Warlord Traits and Deploy Forces. Section, phase, period of time, zebblebrot - it doesn't matter what you call it. They are part of the same step.
A for effort though - well done.

it is necessary to point out because using the term "deployment phase" makes it in all encompassing of anything happening before the start of the game.

The BRB sets the steps in order on page 424.

As for "deploy army vs deploy forces" obviously it was not a direct quote, so whatever.

Nevertheless, I took the steps from the BRB pg 424, so if you want to point to a discrepancy in the steps please feel free to let GW know, they are the ones that wrote the book.
This a direct quote from that page:

BRB pg 424 wrote:
If either player has Psykers that generate random psychic powers, they generate them now.

40k-noob wrote:
it is necessary to point out because using the term "deployment phase" makes in all encompassing of anything happening before the start of the game.

Page 121 proves that rolling for Warlord Traits and Deploy Forces (and therefore anything happening between the two) is part of Deployment.
Therefore it actually is all encompassing for those things - which is all I ever said.

The BRB sets the steps in order on page 424.

Well, no - that's false. Is page 424 a summary of the steps, or rules for the steps?

As for "deploy army vs deploy forces" obviously it was not a direct quote, so whatever.

So if I'm slightly inexact but my point stands I must be corrected - but if you're slightly inexact without altering your point it's "not a direct quote, so whatever". Double standards are cool brah.

Nevertheless, I took the steps from the BRB pg 424, so if you want to point a discrepancy in the steps please feel to let GW know, they are the ones that wrote the book.
This a direct quote from that page:

BRB pg 424 wrote:
If either player has Psykers that generate random psychic powers, they generate them now.

Yup, right there in the Summary. Have you read the actual rules for that on page 418?
Any time a summary leaves doubt you should check the actual rules - it will leave fewer misunderstandings.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
it is necessary to point out because using the term "deployment phase" makes in all encompassing of anything happening before the start of the game.

Page 121 proves that rolling for Warlord Traits and Deploy Forces (and therefore anything happening between the two) is part of Deployment.
Therefore it actually is all encompassing for those things - which is all I ever said.

I can't argue with what you meant, all I am saying is the term "Deployment Phase" is not a correct term as there are no phases before the game starts.

rigeld2 wrote:

The BRB sets the steps in order on page 424.

Well, no - that's false. Is page 424 a summary of the steps, or rules for the steps?

LOL how is this false? The steps ARE in the BRB, page 424 it will say:
Preparing For Battle
Before you can play a game, you will need to prepare a few thing:

* First,......

* Next....

and son on.

I never said they were rules, just steps in order for starting a game of 40K.

rigeld2 wrote:

As for "deploy army vs deploy forces" obviously it was not a direct quote, so whatever.

So if I'm slightly inexact but my point stands I must be corrected - but if you're slightly inexact without altering your point it's "not a direct quote, so whatever". Double standards are cool brah.

Fair enough.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nevertheless, I took the steps from the BRB pg 424, so if you want to point a discrepancy in the steps please feel to let GW know, they are the ones that wrote the book.
This a direct quote from that page:

BRB pg 424 wrote:
If either player has Psykers that generate random psychic powers, they generate them now.

Yup, right there in the Summary. Have you read the actual rules for that on page 418?
Any time a summary leaves doubt you should check the actual rules - it will leave fewer misunderstandings.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What I think Devian meant to ask was, at which step does the 50% rule take effect.

All of them.

where do you get that conclusion from?

Because the 50% rule does not have a time frame. Therefore when you begin the game you are only allowed to have 50% of your army in reserve.

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What I think Devian meant to ask was, at which step does the 50% rule take effect.

All of them.

where do you get that conclusion from?

Because the 50% rule does not have a time frame. Therefore when you begin the game you are only allowed to have 50% of your army in reserve.

The BRB says:

BRB page 124 - Reserves section wrote:
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

"When deploying their armies,..."

Does this not set the time frame for determining which units start in reserve and which must be deployed, to take place during the deploying your "forces" step of preparing game?
So wouldn't that mean that an all DW army that chooses to make a DW Assault is already bound to make a DS and thus not counted towards the 50% rule?