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Right, It also says "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" P. 124

Do the DWA terminators have to start in reserve?

If not then they are not ignored for the 50% calculation.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, It also says "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" P. 124

Do the DWA terminators have to start in reserve?

If not then they are not ignored for the 50% calculation.

That is just it now isn't it?

The choice to make a DW Assault is made after Warlord Traits but before the deploying of "forces" and as such are now DS'ing.

Therefor by the time you start "deploying" your armies, DW Assault Termies MUST start in Reserve because they are bound to DS.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, It also says "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" P. 124

Do the DWA terminators have to start in reserve?

If not then they are not ignored for the 50% calculation.

That is just it now isn't it?

The choice to make a DW Assault...

So DWA is a choice, or do they have to start in reserves?

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, It also says "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" P. 124

Do the DWA terminators have to start in reserve?

If not then they are not ignored for the 50% calculation.

That is just it now isn't it?

The choice to make a DW Assault...

So DWA is a choice, or do they have to start in reserves?

It is a choice, but once that choice is made, which happens before deploying the armies, then that is it, there is no longer a choice the Termies are bound DS, and by the time the deploying of armies/forces begins, for the purposes of determining which units deploy on the table and which are in Reserve, the DW Assaulting termies MUST DS.

If it is a choice they are counted in the 50% equation.

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" P. 124

The DWA Termies do not have to start in reserve, as you do have an option of deploying them. Choosing to put them in reserve does not exempt them from the calculation.

And back full circle

40k noob - the headinG "DEPLOYMENT" shows that it is part of deploying your forces when you choose to make a DWA

So not only is it part of deployment, it is also a choice. 2 reasons why you dont get to avoid the 50% rule.

Deathreaper, dwa termies do not have to start in reserve. Dwa termies using dwa before the deploy forces step can not change their dwa choice for deployment.

Units that fire heavy weapons can not assault. If you assaulted the turn prior, can you fire a heavy weapon?

When using dwa, there is no reserve restriction because you are not deploying your army and the only reserve restriction is when deploying your army. Later in the game, there is a restriction but said units in dwa were put in dwa with no restriction in place. When deploying your army, you can not deploy a dwa unit, not can you put him in reserve. He is using dwa already, and must keep his dwa, he can not change his choice.

So you arent deploying your army despite doing so under the heading "DEPLOYMENT"?

An interesting argument - just ignore the section title telling you what you are categorised as doing.

What is so powerful or scary about allowing all the DW to use DWA?

 Akar wrote:
What is so powerful or scary about allowing all the DW to use DWA?

THis has relevance to determining what the rules say...how?

This has nothing to do with the relative power level, but whether DA are allowed to break a core mechanic of 6th edition. The answer is "NO", currently

Just curious. This has gone on for a few pages now, and I can't figure out the reasoning for it going on so long. Is it that someone wants to keep going so that they're right, or that peeps are just afraid of playing against 40-50 Terminators dropping on Turn 1 giving the opponent 1 turn before getting assaulted? Why is this an issue? If they want to DS their entire army, they have just as much of an argument as not being able to. (Leaning toward them being able to, but won't comment more till I get my BRB back). If it's a tournament, then the DA players are just going to have to ask before going into the event.

 jegsar wrote:
They have the option to start on the table, so you are still limited to the 50% rule. Having said that, I wouldn't want to play a list with no heavy support options in it.

I have an all DW army. I run two units with CML and use them in the Heavy Support role.

Homer

Akar wrote:Just curious. This has gone on for a few pages now, and I can't figure out the reasoning for it going on so long. Is it that someone wants to keep going so that they're right, or that peeps are just afraid of playing against 40-50 Terminators dropping on Turn 1 giving the opponent 1 turn before getting assaulted? Why is this an issue? If they want to DS their entire army, they have just as much of an argument as not being able to. (Leaning toward them being able to, but won't comment more till I get my BRB back). If it's a tournament, then the DA players are just going to have to ask before going into the event.

Then you have missed the point of this forum. This forum helps you to, outside of a game and the pressure that brings, determine what the actual rules state, and determine then if people want to houserule it.

As a general tip attempting to ascribe negative connotations to those arguing one way, by simply guessing (theyre afraid), is a really bad idea. You frequently get people on here who will argue that army X does not get to do ability Y, despite playing that army themselves. So to say that people are only arguing against DWA being able to breach the 50% rule because theya re afraid? Unsafe argument!

FInally, WHY do you lean on there being just as much argument FOR breaking the 50% rule as against? This is a permissive ruleset, and DA do NOT have *permission* to break the 50% rule, anywhere in te rules for DWA. THis has been shown over and over. If this is simply how you would play it, then you must, per the tenets, state that - as arguing against a houserule is impossible.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then you have missed the point of this forum. This forum helps you to, outside of a game and the pressure that brings, determine what the actual rules state, and determine then if people want to houserule it.

I agree that this is what the forum is for. What is being done is people telling other people how it actually IS based on how they interpret an unclear rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As a general tip attempting to ascribe negative connotations to those arguing one way, by simply guessing (theyre afraid), is a really bad idea. You frequently get people on here who will argue that army X does not get to do ability Y, despite playing that army themselves. So to say that people are only arguing against DWA being able to breach the 50% rule because theya re afraid? Unsafe argument!

If I have attacked any specific Dakkaite, then please report me for breaking that rule/guideline whatever. It was an HONEST question as to WHY this is an issue. Im trying to understand the passion behind dis-allowing it. Since that is my intent, It's just as valid to ask questions so that when I get around to making a comment (if I choose to do so), I have some insight into the mind of the guy I hope to one day be sitting across a table from.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
FInally, WHY do you lean on there being just as much argument FOR breaking the 50% rule as against? This is a permissive ruleset, and DA do NOT have *permission* to break the 50% rule, anywhere in te rules for DWA. THis has been shown over and over. If this is simply how you would play it, then you must, per the tenets, state that - as arguing against a houserule is impossible.

It's in my reply (I don't have my rulebooks on me.) There seems to be this camp of people on various threads that seems to think that the Reserves and Deep Strike rule tend to blanket everything, so unless specifically addressed, it simply cannot be done unless it's in ink that every specific function of either of those rules needs to be addressed for them to apply.

Are there situations that models are placed in Reserve outside of the deployment phase?
Are there situations in the Game that use the Deep Strike rule that don't use the Reserves rule?

I'll post more, after I get my BRB/DA dex in hand to re-read the rules, as I've said before, but it does NOT hurt to ask questions that are relevant to a response when I don't understand the issue.

Except the rule isnt unclear - you do not have permission to break the 50% reserves limit, so you dont get to break the 50% reserves limit. Nowhere in the rules for DWA is there an exception stating you are ALWAYS allowed to DWA, or other such language

Thus, you cannot do so.

It is up to the "can do" side to find permission to break the 50% rule, not the "cannot do", because that is how the rules work.

Also - I wasnt saying that you had insulted people, jsut you are tryng to ascribe negative emotions (being afraid) as to the reason people are arguing. That is irrelevant to the forum topic.

FInally - your last two questions have very easy answers - "YES" (mishaps) and "you havent asked the right question" - because tehre is a difference between Deep Strike and being placed used the Deep Strike rules, such as GOI

 Akar wrote:
Are there situations that models are placed in Reserve outside of the deployment phase?

Certain models are ale to go into Ongoing Reserve (which is similar to normal Reserves). Other models (such as the Mawloc and Swooping Hawks with the Skyleap power) specifically go back into Reserve (though this may get FAQ'd to be Ongoing Reserves).

Are there situations in the Game that use the Deep Strike rule that don't use the Reserves rule?

Gate of Infinity and Skies of Blood (I think that's what it is called) spring to mind. Both use the Deep Strike rules without actually being in Reserves, however, they specify how they work, which includes using the DS rules, with some changes.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The BRB sets the steps in order on page 424.

Well, no - that's false. Is page 424 a summary of the steps, or rules for the steps?

LOL how is this false? The steps ARE in the BRB, page 424 it will say:

I never said they were rules, just steps in order for starting a game of 40K.

If they're a summary and not rules, then the actual rules (which don't say what you said) are correct.

If you look at the steps on page 424 you will notice that the step for Generating Powers is before the deploying of "armies" or "forces" if you will, so the steps seem to be in order.

Again, I didn't right the book. I take a listing of steps for the preparation of a game written by the creators of such game as actually what they are, steps to starting a game.

So something must happen before forces are deployed can only ever happen after Warlord Traits are rolled for?
Could you find a rule to back that up? Note that summaries are not rules - only quick summations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, It also says "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" P. 124

Do the DWA terminators have to start in reserve?

If not then they are not ignored for the 50% calculation.

That is just it now isn't it?

The choice to make a DW Assault is made after Warlord Traits but before the deploying of "forces" and as such are now DS'ing.

Therefor by the time you start "deploying" your armies, DW Assault Termies MUST start in Reserve because they are bound to DS.

So the choice is not page during the Deployment step?
Would you mind looking at page 121 as I've cited multiple times?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And back full circle

40k noob - the headinG "DEPLOYMENT" shows that it is part of deploying your forces when you choose to make a DWA

So not only is it part of deployment, it is also a choice. 2 reasons why you dont get to avoid the 50% rule.

You are incorrect, it is not part of deploying your forces.

If you notice the steps that make up the "DEPLOYMENT" section on page 121, they are two fold.

Determine Warlord Traits
and
Deploy Forces

Deciding to make a DW Assault happens in between those two steps.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The BRB sets the steps in order on page 424.

Well, no - that's false. Is page 424 a summary of the steps, or rules for the steps?

LOL how is this false? The steps ARE in the BRB, page 424 it will say:

I never said they were rules, just steps in order for starting a game of 40K.

If they're a summary and not rules, then the actual rules (which don't say what you said) are correct.

If you look at the steps on page 424 you will notice that the step for Generating Powers is before the deploying of "armies" or "forces" if you will, so the steps seem to be in order.

Again, I didn't right the book. I take a listing of steps for the preparation of a game written by the creators of such game as actually what they are, steps to starting a game.

So something must happen before forces are deployed can only ever happen after Warlord Traits are rolled for?
Could you find a rule to back that up? Note that summaries are not rules - only quick summations.

So the period of time called "DEPLOYMENT" is not deployment?

DWA does not require the unit to start in Reserve. There is also no explicit override within it telling you they may ignore the normal limit on reserving half of your units.

Attempting to infer one from the deployment sequence really feels like Easter Egg hunting, and there is no way that I could feel comfortable attempting to claim that I could so so with my Dark Angels army.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So the period of time called "DEPLOYMENT" is not deployment?

You can call any period of time anything you want.
You can call the time before a game starts, "Pre-Battle Rituals" or "Getting Your Groove On" it really doesn't matter.

What you can't do is make the claim that there is a "Deployment Phase" or a "Deployment Step" as part of the preparation steps for starting a 40K game.

There is a "Deployment" section of the BRB and there is a "Deploy Forces" step for starting a 40k game, rules for which are found in the "Deployment" section of the BRB.

40k-noob wrote:
What you can't do is make the claim that there is a "Deployment Phase" or a "Deployment Step" as part of the preparation steps for starting a 40K game.

So the Deployment section on page 121 - what do you refer to that as?

There is a "Deployment" section of the BRB and there is a "Deploy Forces" step for starting a 40k game, rules for which are found in the "Deployment" section of the BRB.

Right. And what else happens in the "Deployment" section?
Oh, Warlord traits.
What happens after Warlord traits? DWA declaration.
What section is that in? Deployment.


Welcome to what I said in my first post in the thread. Your harping on irrelevant language isn't helping your cause.

Regardless of when the CHOICE is made, it is still a CHOICE and therefore NOT a MUST. Non dedicated flying transports are the only other thing that is not a MUST but there is a specific exception to the rule for them.

 Akar wrote:
What is so powerful or scary about allowing all the DW to use DWA?

It's not when balanced. add 2 more point per model, maybe about 2 ppm and still that is only half that come in on turn 1... not all.
I wouldn't have a problem with you DSing your entire army on turn one of my entire daemon army auto came in turn one instead of only half.
Or if I you allowed me to take an extra 10 man TAC squad to balance it out but RAW, no sorry, it's a choice.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What you can't do is make the claim that there is a "Deployment Phase" or a "Deployment Step" as part of the preparation steps for starting a 40K game.

So the Deployment section on page 121 - what do you refer to that as?

The Deployment section of the rulebook is how I refer to it.

rigeld2 wrote:

There is a "Deployment" section of the BRB and there is a "Deploy Forces" step for starting a 40k game, rules for which are found in the "Deployment" section of the BRB.

Right. And what else happens in the "Deployment" section?
Oh, Warlord traits.
What happens after Warlord traits? DWA declaration.
What section is that in? Deployment.


Welcome to what I said in my first post in the thread. Your harping on irrelevant language isn't helping your cause.

I have to laugh as this thread has gone from you make the call to you make up the rules with this declaration prior to deploy forces non-sense.

notice it says "When deploying their armies" in the reserves rule not "deploying forces step" language not irreverent, GW terminology not defined, just like force weapons and FNP, Plague Zombies etc... that all needed an FAQ/Errata.

From there I will also point out it doesn't say.

Also where does "The Game" start? I would say by the time you are rolling dice you are playing the game. Therefore you rolled for your warlord trait, meaning at that time the DW did not HAVE to start in reserves and therefore it's a choice after the game started and they are not ignored for the 50% rule.

There is still nothing in the DWA rules that over-rides the only 50% of your units may start in reserve restriction.

tgf wrote:
I have to laugh as this thread has gone from you make the call to you make up the rules with this declaration prior to deploy forces non-sense.

What part is made up?

The codex rule says: "Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent...."
If you wait till your are rolling for who deploys then you have passed up your opportunity to make a DWA as you have now entered the "Deploy Forces" step.

 jegsar wrote:
notice it says "When deploying their armies" in the reserves rule not "deploying forces step" language not irreverent, GW terminology not defined, just like force weapons and FNP, Plague Zombies etc... that all needed an FAQ/Errata.

From there I will also point out it doesn't say.

Also where does "The Game" start? I would say by the time you are rolling dice you are playing the game. Therefore you rolled for your warlord trait, meaning at that time the DW did not HAVE to start in reserves and therefore it's a choice after the game started and they are not ignored for the 50% rule.

Read the "Deploy Forces" section of the BRB. It clearly states that you are deploying your army at this point and so the determining reserves occurs within the "Deploy Forces" step.

 DeathReaper wrote:
There is still nothing in the DWA rules that over-rides the only 50% of your units may start in reserve restriction.

Once you make a DWA declaration, then all those DWA units automatically arrive via DS on the chosen turn. That means these units MUST be in reserve as per the DS rules.

The Reserves rule says that any unit that MUST be in Reserve does not count towards the 50% rule.

It says "Armies are placed".

Every other situation where the 50% rule is allowed to be broken specifically exempts the unit from the rule, this does not. In a permissive rule set, you need to be allowed to do something in order to do it.

Just wait for the FAQ if you think it will come,

It wont come for several reasons, most of which is balance. No other army, including a full drop pod assault or Daemons come in full on first turn. Both of these armies are paying a premium for their units, look at drop pods, it increases a TAC squad cost by 38% before weapon upgrades.

when you pay a base of 54 points per DW and 57 per DWK then you can DS everything and maybe call it balanced.

This thread is amusing

And no, you cannot reserve DW completely because it does not grant permission to ignore the 50% reserve rule in any way, and it doesn't matter how you try to turn the facts around or looking at the deployment steps. You don't HAVE to be in reserve therefore you are not exempt from the 50% reserve rule. There is no grey area, it's straight up rules as written and intended