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that is the argument... DW units can start on the table, if you choose to have that unit do a DWA then it enters via DS.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
This many pages for something so simple?
You can have 50% in reserve. Doesn't matter what turn they come in on. Units that must start in reserve (flyers) are the only exception with the minor addition of embarked units.

Without having any rules to look at (or the time to read through 6 pages), I would only want to know if Deathwing units, after a Deathwing assault is declared, are allowed to be placed on the table.
If all Deathwing units must enter play via reserves, then it should be fine for more then 50% to go.
If each unit has the option of going into reserves or not, then the 50% rule should be in effect.
I'll have to look at my friend's codex before I can be sure though.

Here is the rule, word for word since you don't have the codex handy:

DA Codex page 44 Deathwing Assault wrote:
Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault.
Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn.
All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves.

Eh.. can we not quote huge chucks of codices here? The forum rules and all?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Eh.. can we not quote huge chucks of codices here? The forum rules and all?

That's more of a guideline that a rule really.

BTW the last clause of that rule, that's the bit that says they are in reserves. They are in reserves but don't have to roll to come out of it. That means they are subject to the normal reserves limitations of 50%.

Quoting an entire rule is fine in a situation like this, where the function and phrasing needs to be examined.

We discourage people from quoting large sections of chapter and verse in response to folks just asking for rules, in place of buying a codex or rulebook.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
BTW the last clause of that rule, that's the bit that says they are in reserves. They are in reserves but don't have to roll to come out of it. That means they are subject to the normal reserves limitations of 50%.

How are those units arriving from Reserve?

40k-noob wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
BTW the last clause of that rule, that's the bit that says they are in reserves. They are in reserves but don't have to roll to come out of it. That means they are subject to the normal reserves limitations of 50%.

How are those units arriving from Reserve?

They're Deep Striking with no roll required.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
BTW the last clause of that rule, that's the bit that says they are in reserves. They are in reserves but don't have to roll to come out of it. That means they are subject to the normal reserves limitations of 50%.

How are those units arriving from Reserve?

They're Deep Striking with no roll required.

what does the Deep Strike rule say in the very first sentence first paragraph?

That they must start in Reserve?

I'm not sure what your point is.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
BTW the last clause of that rule, that's the bit that says they are in reserves. They are in reserves but don't have to roll to come out of it. That means they are subject to the normal reserves limitations of 50%.

How are those units arriving from Reserve?

They're Deep Striking with no roll required.

what does the Deep Strike rule say in the very first sentence first paragraph?

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." P.36 BRB first sentence first paragraph.

Added the underlined for emphasis.

Compare it to P. 44 DA codex: "All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn"

So to be able to DS they need to all have the rule and start in reserve.

and DWA arrives via DS.

Seems clear that they are, in fact, in reserves.

rigeld2 wrote:
That they must start in Reserve?

I'm not sure what your point is.

So what does the Reserves rule say about units that must start in reserve?

Last question and I will make my point.

Before you answer that, please answer my question of, when does the "game start"? when you roll the dice to determine mission or when the first player's first turn starts?
First, last, and only question before i make my point.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That they must start in Reserve?

I'm not sure what your point is.

So what does the Reserves rule say about units that must start in reserve?

Last question and I will make my point.

Oh, cool story bro!
So if I declare a unit is Deep Striking they don't count either?! Awesome!

In case you hadn't guessed, that's sarcasm. The answer to your question is "they don't count towards the 50%" - now please, make your point.

 jegsar wrote:
Before you answer that, please answer my question of, when does the "game start"? when you roll the dice to determine mission or when the first player's first turn starts?
First, last, and only question before i make my point.

Well since reserves must start the game in reserves the game has to start sometime after units are put into reserves, otherwise nothing could ever deep strike.

 jegsar wrote:
Before you answer that, please answer my question of, when does the "game start"? when you roll the dice to determine mission or when the first player's first turn starts?
First, last, and only question before i make my point.

The "Game" in essence or in spirit if you will starts when two or more players agree to play.

The technical "game" i guess starts at Choosing your list since it seems that is listed first in the The Game Summary on page 424.

Honestly I do no have an exact answer for you.

Premise 1: Since reserves must start the game in reserves the game has to start sometime after units are put into reserves, otherwise nothing could ever deep strike.

Can we agree on premise one?

rigeld2 wrote:
That they must start in Reserve?

I'm not sure what your point is.

That is not what the Deep Strike rule say in the very first sentence first paragraph.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." P.36 BRB first sentence first paragraph Ignoring the fluff sentence.

40k-noob wrote:

 jegsar wrote:
Before you answer that, please answer my question of, when does the "game start"? when you roll the dice to determine mission or when the first player's first turn starts?
First, last, and only question before i make my point.

The "Game" in essence or in spirit if you will starts when two or more players agree to play.

The technical "game" i guess starts at Choosing your list since it seems that is listed first in the The Game Summary on page 424.

Honestly I do no have an exact answer for you.

I agree with this,
The game starts before rolling for warlord traits. It also says

Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.

well the game started then you choose to put them in reserves when you choose to DWA them. the only exception and it is explicitly stated is that units that start in transports that must start the game in reserves do not count towards the 50%.

In addition, I know we are not examining RAI but the obvious reason for this wording doesn't have anything to do with the amount you can deep strike but that you are declaring which units and deciding which turn said units come in on before the other player makes any decisions based on deployment, and before you even know who is going first or second.

If you disagree try to figure out a better way to word the timing for this to not allow more then half to DS and to do this before any dice are rolled to determine who goes/deploys first.

Someone said earlier something about DA not having drop pods, just to let you know they do have them and they are cheaper then some other pods i have seen. So yes you can DS your entire army if you want, and DWA the one unit not in a drop pod since everything rounds up.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Premise 1: Since reserves must start the game in reserves the game has to start sometime after units are put into reserves, otherwise nothing could ever deep strike.

Can we agree on premise one?

rigeld2 wrote:
That they must start in Reserve?

I'm not sure what your point is.

That is not what the Deep Strike rule say in the very first sentence first paragraph.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." P.36 BRB first sentence first paragraph Ignoring the fluff sentence.

Yes, yours is exactly correct - I interpreted his question and answered what I thought was the relevant part of that sentence (you'll notice that the second half of it is what I said).

40k-noob, I see what you are getting at, if you deep strike you must be in reserves. Unfortunately that is the chicken before the egg. You choose the option to avail of DWA and enter from reserves by DS.

You put a unit into reserves and it can deep strike but at no point was there no choice to deploy them on the board. So the unit only "must" be in reserves after you decide to put it there as it is deep striking.

Normally Terminators can walk on the table edge if they want when they are put in reserves. In this case all that is different in DWA is that you must come in by DS.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That they must start in Reserve?

I'm not sure what your point is.

So what does the Reserves rule say about units that must start in reserve?

Last question and I will make my point.

Oh, cool story bro!
So if I declare a unit is Deep Striking they don't count either?! Awesome!

In case you hadn't guessed, that's sarcasm. The answer to your question is "they don't count towards the 50%" - now please, make your point.

The Codex explicitly gives the player permission to declare any unit that is "entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault."

There is no limit on this rule other than the unit or units must have TDA and have the DWA rule.

In a basic Army List, Belial and two DW squads as Troops, the plaer can declare all three ( or two in joining the IC) as making a DWA, so long as he does it in the time frame set by the rule.

The player then proceeds to "Deploy Forces" but finds that his army are all DS'ing automatically.

Now does that break any rules?

I say no because the DWA rule forces theose units to DS as noted by the DWA rule "All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike..."
This, by rule, is taken out of the player's hands, they DS "Automatically." The player cannot even change his mind anymore (rules wise at least) because those units are on Auto now.

Because, the DWA declaration takes place before the player has to "deploy Forces" is the sole reason this is valid.

Anyway, going to sleep. will follow up tomorrow.

They don't need to start the game in reserves though.. so it's breaking the rule i pointed out after you told me when the game starts.

The big clue here I feel is as stated earlier "ANY unit composed entirely of models with TDA and tne DWA rule." The key word here is the word ANY, which to me means up to an including ALL DW units. I'd like to think GW would have added "up to 50% of units composed entirely of models wtth TDA and the DWA" or something similar if DW termies had to follow the 50% rule, but considering how many typos and errors the DA codex already had, that's clearly giving them too much credit. As it is, I'll wait for the inevitable FAQ...

40k noob, you're just scraping to justify your position. Do you need to be right that much?

The fact it comes in at a specific time has no bearing on the fact they are in reserves, every unit automatically arrives turn 4. These guys turn up automatically turn 1 or 2, that they don't behave exactly like a normal unit in reserves is just that they have a special rule. This rule dictates exactly when they arrive just like the brb dictates when a unit in reserves must arrive on the board by.
The player has no way to change it just like every other player cannot influence when their reservers will show up. Once you've written down turn 1 or 2 it's out of your contol. .

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
The big clue here I feel is as stated earlier "ANY unit composed entirely of models with TDA and tne DWA rule." The key word here is the word ANY, which to me means up to an including ALL DW units. I'd like to think GW would have added "up to 50% of units composed entirely of models wtth TDA and the DWA" or something similar if DW termies had to follow the 50% rule, but considering how many typos and errors the DA codex already had, that's clearly giving them too much credit. As it is, I'll wait for the inevitable FAQ...

Why would they add in a reminder for reserves every time a unit has a rule that allows it to come in from reserves?
Any unit can be put in reserves that doesn't mean that it overcomes the 50% rule. Just like Typhus's plague zombies rules "any" means that some can while others don't have to, you can place any of your units with DWA in reserve, all of them if you have less than 50% in reserves when doing so but there is no clear allowance to break the 50% rule. Their typos aren't so bad as they have forgotten whole sentences that you must hang your hat on a single vague word.

General limitations require an allowance, gw are usually clear in their rules that remove limitations. SW HQ's, DA HQ units that don't take up force org charts, Drop pods in reserve, Ahriman and witchfire, Dante and deep strike, flyers in reserve, etc etc

Ferrum - the word "any" does not override a "you cannot", which is what the 50% rule is.

40k - so, again, where does it SPECIFICALLY override the 50% rule? It does not

Your claim is that by putting it in DS reserve it MUST then be in reserves so cannot count. Which is exactly the same argument any player putting any unit in DS reserve can state.

You are still making a timing argument, the exact same timing argument that has been refuted at *every* step. You are undwer DEPLOYMENT and DEPLOYMENT is where restrictions on DEPLOYMENT occur.

My biggest gripe is people pointing to "immediately after choosing Warlord traits" somehow translating to the creation of a new phase of the game before deployment, thus freeing you up to label your DWA as "forced" into deep striking and immune to the 50% rule. The reason the rule explicitly states immediately after choosing Warlord traits is that if you wait any longer, you will now know a) who is deploying first and b) if you are deploying second, you will know exactly what and where your enemy is deployed. That would be a game-breaking balance nightmare for DWA. Thinking you can violate the 50% rule with DWA is so mind-boggling that I am convinced the people arguing for it don't actually believe it themselves, they just want to attempt flimsy rules lawyering to give themselves an advantage until the next FAQ ruins their fun.

You can ABSOLUTELY choose to make a Deathwing assault with every single one of your Deathwing units. You just have to have an equal number of non-Deathwing units in your list that can deploy on the board to satisfy the 50% rule.

The game begins on the first turn. Everything before that is simply setting up the game.

So if i dwa i auto go first and neither player can generate psychic powers? As that is the ONLY way i cam be limited by the 50% rule. Here's the order guys:

1) roll warlord traits
2) roll psychic powers
3) roll off for who goes first
4) player A deploys his forces and may put up to 50% in reserve.
5) player B deploys his forces and may put up to 50%in reserve.

So for the 50% clause to effect dwa it must be part of 4 or 5 as it occurs immediately after 1 which means we miss out those intermediate steps. How do you reconcile that with your interpretation?
.
reserve

Same timing argument, discredited repeatedly. Try reading through the thread, you are adding nothing new.

where has this been refuted. what steps were agreed that occur that enable the 50% clause and don't force you to select reserves at a wired time or prevent the turn 1 roll off. because the 50% clause only occurs when you are deploying your army and when you are choosing reserves.

Have you read the thread? Or the other one on this exact same topic?

It has been repeatedly refuted, I will not do your work for you on this.