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Show me show me.
And my favorite, no where does it say "Deploy Forces" it says to PLACE your army on the table...

Oh and best yet, back to my starting the game. Flyers must start the game in reserve because they NEVER have the option to start on the tab;e everything else can not be placed on the table and go into reserves.

So yes, unless they MUST START THE GAME (aka unless they must be in reserves before you roll the die to select a mission) then they do indeed count towards the 50% with the 1 exception being if they are embarked upon a transport that must start the game in reserves.

Ok on the one hand we have a simple interpretation of existing rules that allows certain units to bypass the usual roll to determine their entry turn by DS but without any overriding of the brb restriction on 50% of one's army in reserves vs a somewhat convoluted argument that relays on the interpretation of "deployment" and "deploying your army" and also seems to hinge on the timing of various steps one is told to apply in deployment. Or possibly deploying my army. Does that about sum it up?

I guess I'm bordering on HIWPI territory here but Occam's razor suggests the first interpretation is possibly the best.

People seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing here. This matter will, in all probability, be settled quickly via a FAQ. And we all know that GW will side with the DWA, because that will sell more shineys!

The word immediately I feel is being overlooked by the anti crowd as well saying that it creates a step that doesn't exist within the framework of the game. Now where did I last see the word immediately within a rule? And how did that decision go?

Cheers

Andrew

Ok on the one hand we have a simple interpretation of existing rules that allows certain units to bypass the usual roll to determine their entry turn by DS but without any overriding of the brb restriction on 50% of one's army in reserves vs a somewhat convoluted argument that relays on the interpretation of "deployment" and "deploying your army" and also seems to hinge on the timing of various steps one is told to apply in deployment. Or possibly deploying my army. Does that about sum it up?

Not really. When deploying your army, you can choose not to deploy up to half those units. Because DWA is before your deployment of your army, and more importantly because you are not deploying your army when using DWA, units with DWA have no compulsion to not use their special rule if it would somehow change reserves later in the game. When you get to the time when you are deploying your army, you are neither able to deploy them nor are you able to put them in normal reserve--DWA units have no choices to make when you are deploying your army.

Look at the text of combat squads. This says it happens before deployment, and the extra squads count for how many units you may have in reserve. DWA could have said this, but it didnt. What is the point of timing DWA before either player deploys their army, if when deploying their army after making a DWA they find there is a new restriction that squads allowed to DWA 2-3 steps ago can no longer DWA if DWA counts for the reserve limit, yet can not deploy as they declared a legal DWA at the time, and can not enter reserves as they declared a DWA?

I find it hard to believe that DWA would not be allowed to be used on an army consisting of Belial and 2 terminator units, based on a 50% rule designed to prevent more than half of a force entering NORMAL RESERVE when deploying your army. When deploying your army, you are making ZERO choices to not deploy Belial and his terminators if you earlier chose to DWA.

Put simply, if you chose to DWA, when you get to the point when you are deploying your army, are you AGAIN choosing not to deploy Belial? Do you have to choose not to deploy belial twice, once with DWA and once during army deployment? Or is your choice made when DWAing, and during army deployment the DWA has has no choices to make?

DevianID wrote:
...Put simply, if you chose to DWA,...

This and the rule about only those that must start in reserves are not counted for the 50% say it all.

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
If you do something immediately after player A's assault phase is that the same as at the start of player B's turn? Id say no

So wait, there is a step between the end of Player A's assault phase and Blayer B's Movement phase? Can you give me a page that shows this?

Whatever rule that was telling you to do something immediately after the assault phase would be what is creating that step. The extra step is created because the rule isn't stated to occur at the start of the movement phase...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

DevianID wrote:
...Put simply, if you chose to DWA,...

This and the rule about only those that must start in reserves are not counted for the 50% say it all.

Why is that relevant the 50% rule only applies when deploying your army and choosing which units go into reserve. This has nothing to do with DWA. Essentially your argument is the same as saying you can not ever assault because you can't assault after firing rapidfire weapons. If you haven't fired apidfire weapons the restriction on assaulting isn't active just as if you are not selecting units for reserves whilst deploying your army the 50% rule isn't active.

But DWA is a choice, and nothing in the DWA rules says that it overrides the normal 50% restriction.

DWA tells you that if you use it, any units selected to do it MUST start in reserve, but that's the same as the normal Deep Strike rules, which tell us that any units which are Deep Striking MUST start in reserve. Neither overrides the normal reserve limit, because you always have the choice to Deep Strike or the deploy a unit using either normal Deep Strike or DWA.

Nothing about DWA compels units with the rule to ALWAYS start the game in Reserve, like Daemonic Assault, or being a Flyer do, so it is not eligible for any exception to the 50% limit.

-----------------

For a bit of historical context and insight into intent, one might also want to look at the previous Dark Angels codex, which also gave Deathwing Assault a special rule, which was to allow up to half of your Deep Striking terminator units to automatically arrive on turn 1. So only half of your terminators could do it.

Mannahin:

Nothing in the assault rules specifically over rules the prohibition on assaulting after firing rapidfire weapons. Yet this does not mean you can never assault. DWA doesn't overrule the 50% rule because it doesn't have to as they have nothing to do with each other.

However in the historical context you could deepstrike your entire DW army. Only half arrived on turn 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a question for the 50% crowd. If a nid army has 5 fmcs and only 2 other units can all 5 fly off in the same turn thus breaking the 50% rule. Or as in the case with dwa is the 50% actually an allowance that applies at a specific time and is therefore not active in these situations...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Mannahin:

Nothing in the assault rules specifically over rules the prohibition on assaulting after firing rapidfire weapons. Yet this does not mean you can never assault. DWA doesn't overrule the 50% rule because it doesn't have to as they have nothing to do with each other.

So putting units in reserve has nothing to do with the rule that tells us we can only choose half of our unit to be put into reserves

Here's a question for the 50% crowd. If a nid army has 5 fmcs and only 2 other units can all 5 fly off in the same turn thus breaking the 50% rule. Or as in the case with dwa is the 50% actually an allowance that applies at a specific time and is therefore not active in these situations...

Read the 50% rule again, it talks about starting the game in reserve...

The FMC question is irrelevant, as that situation is not the start of the game.

I think you should read the 50% rule again. It says that when deploying your army half the units may be put in reserve. This has as much to do with the DWA rule as it has with on going reserves. I am not deploying my army when i select DWA so that rule is irrelevant at that time. Just as the rule preventing assault after firing rapidfire guns is irrelevant to a unit that has not fired its rapidfire guns...

And if I go second, I'm not deploying while my opponent is, so I can declare that all my models are DS/Outflanking allowing me to put more of them in since now they MUST start in reserve. I like this ruling.

 Happyjew wrote:
And if I go second, I'm not deploying while my opponent is, so I can declare that all my models are DS/Outflanking allowing me to put more of them in since now they MUST start in reserve. I like this ruling.

This.

do not ignore the 50% rule.

You don't put models into reserve... you just don't place them on the table. there is a slight difference.

 jegsar wrote:
You don't put models into reserve... you just don't place them on the table. there is a slight difference.

Except the have to be in reserve to use the DS rules.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." P. 36

But what you are talking about is during deployment and the 50% where it states you make not place up to 50% of your army on the table and hold it in reserves. units that MUST STAR THE GAME (i still say this means MUST [ALWAYS] start the game [aka before you roll for the mission] in reserves are ignored for the purpose of this count.

 jegsar wrote:
units that MUST START THE GAME (i still say this means MUST [ALWAYS] start the game [aka before you roll for the mission] in reserves are ignored for the purpose of this count.

And terminators in the DA army have a choice for regular deployment, or DS. So they must be counted in the 50%

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jegsar wrote:
units that MUST START THE GAME (i still say this means MUST [ALWAYS] start the game [aka before you roll for the mission] in reserves are ignored for the purpose of this count.

And terminators in the DA army have a choice for regular deployment, or DS. So they must be counted in the 50%

Exactly.

 jegsar wrote:
But what you are talking about is during deployment and the 50% where it states you make not place up to 50% of your army on the table and hold it in reserves. units that MUST STAR THE GAME (i still say this means MUST [ALWAYS] start the game [aka before you roll for the mission] in reserves are ignored for the purpose of this count.

I think you need to read page 124 again. It states that when deploying your army you may put up to half your units in reserve. Is this rule active when rolling warlord traits? No. Is it active when my opponent deploys? No because i cant put units in reserve then. So is it active when i choose to DWA? Again no.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jegsar wrote:
But what you are talking about is during deployment and the 50% where it states you make not place up to 50% of your army on the table and hold it in reserves. units that MUST STAR THE GAME (i still say this means MUST [ALWAYS] start the game [aka before you roll for the mission] in reserves are ignored for the purpose of this count.

I think you need to read page 124 again. It states that when deploying your army you may put up to half your units in reserve. Is this rule active when rolling warlord traits? No. Is it active when my opponent deploys? No because i cant put units in reserve then. So is it active when i choose to DWA? Again no.

I love this, the rules don't say I cannot have 100% in reserves....

Most GW rules are aimed to be read by children, what part of the DWA allows you to bypass the 50% rules?
Even better what part says it's not part of deploying forces?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewC wrote:
People seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing here. This matter will, in all probability, be settled quickly via a FAQ. And we all know that GW will side with the DWA, because that will sell more shineys!

The word immediately I feel is being overlooked by the anti crowd as well saying that it creates a step that doesn't exist within the framework of the game. Now where did I last see the word immediately within a rule? And how did that decision go?

Cheers

Andrew

Where is your substantive argument? All that is is gloating over a debate that is over.

Immediately doesn't create a new step in the game, it just dictates an order of operations.

What part says it is part of you deploying your army. The fact that it occurs immediately after warlord traits means it can not be. You really need to read page 124 and the DWA rule. There is no prohibition anywhere in the rulesagainst having more than 50% of your army start in reserves. There is only al
Limit to how many to can placein reserves when you deploy your army.

Wow... this is turning the old FnP/deffrolla debates in 5th...

I'm tempted to catagorize this as "clear it with your opponent or TO" before playing an all DS DA army.

Me... I'd allow it... if only to clobber you at your own game .

 FlingitNow wrote:
What part says it is part of you deploying your army. The fact that it occurs immediately after warlord traits means it can not be. You really need to read page 124 and the DWA rule. There is no prohibition anywhere in the rulesagainst having more than 50% of your army start in reserves. There is only al
Limit to how many to can place in reserves when you deploy your army.

Re-read P. 121

Look at the first thing that happens during "Deployment" and answer these two questions.

What is that first section?

When does DWA happen?

This is hilarious easter egging. Everything else that is exempt from the 50% rule has specific verbage. Must start in reserves or embarked on a transport that must start in reserves. DWA contains neither.

I don't care that you're creating a new step that has no rules support or precedence. When turn 1 starts, do you have more than 50% on reserves? Yes. Must the units in reserve be placed in reserve every time? No. Do you have specific verbage allowing you to bypass the 50% rule? No. Looks like you broke the rule.

Reminds me of the Anchorman.

50% of the time, the must start in reserves 100% of the time. Keep dreaming guys.

Warlord traits are rolled
then you declare DWA rule
then you roll psychic powers
then you roll of for who deploys first.
Then player A deploys his army and may put up to 50% in reserves...

If you don't get putting an extra step in an order of operations os creating a new step check page 418 and then page 424.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Warlord traits are rolled
then you declare DWA rule
then you roll psychic powers
then you roll of for who deploys first.
Then player A deploys his army and may put up to 50% in reserves...

If you don't get putting an extra step in an order of operations os creating a new step check page 418 and then page 424.

Will you answer my two questions above?

Be careful though, if you answer my questions your whole argument is invalid.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Warlord traits are rolled
then you declare DWA rule
then you roll psychic powers
then you roll of for who deploys first.
Then player A deploys his army and may put up to 50% in reserves...

If you don't get putting an extra step in an order of operations os creating a new step check page 418 and then page 424.

Does anything else in the game happen in this magical new step? No? Does DWA state this step bypasses the 50% rule? No. Does it cause you to begin the game with nothing deployed without allownce? Yes. Rule broken.

Think it's RAI? Next time you play against daemons or a full drop pod army, tell your opponent they can DS their entire army turn 1 without needing waves or reserve rolls. Let us know how that goes for you.

Does anything.g else happen during the step you roll for psychic powers? No. Why is that even a question? The step when you declare DWA is the step when you declare DWA...

Does it have anything to do with rules governing how you deploy your army? No. Is there a rule preventing you starting the game with no models on the board? No. Is there any rule anywhere in the book that requires you to start with models on the table or indeed governs how many units must start on the table? Again NO!

Seriously you need to read page 124.

FLing - answer the questions, we have answered yours at every step.

 Mannahnin wrote:
But DWA is a choice, and nothing in the DWA rules says that it overrides the normal 50% restriction.

But the 50% rule deals specifically with placing units in reserve. Models using DWA are not held in reserve, and are chosen to make the DWA before reserves are chosen.

I think we won't have a consensus for this until it gets FAQ'd, and it is another example of poorly written rules.

 helium42 wrote:
it is another example of poorly written rules.

For people that try to push them, if you don't try to bend the rules it woks out fine. The reason I don't think this is horrible. How would you word this rule follow these conditions without specifically stating that it does count towards the %50 and that it is limited by the %50. GW doesn't restate when something in limited often, most of them time they state when something can break a limit.
1) make choice on what units are using DWA before you roll for who deploys first
2) make this choice after you roll off for warlord traits
3) This is limited by the 50% reserves rule. (make sure not to specifically say this otherwise you will need to keep reprinting this every time you have something with an interesting DS rule)

Please word this rule. (note this is a question to anyone that think it should be able to break to 50% rule)