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 helium42 wrote:
Models using DWA are not held in reserve.

This idea has been debunked repeatedly.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." P. 36 BRB

DWA specifically says you do not need to roll for reserves because they automatically deep strike on the chosen turn. why would they tell you not to roll for reserves if the unit was not in reserve?

To mannahnin, yes DWA is a choice. A choice done after warlord and before you get to deploy your army.

Then in deploying your army, you can make a SEPARATE choice to not deploy a unit. When making THIS choice, you may only not deploy half your units.

You are advocating that we choose to DWA after warlord, then roll for deployment, and when deploying choose A SECOND TIME to not deploy a unit that is in DWA.

This seems insane to me having to choose do to something a second time that I was FORCED to choose earlier, and is why I feel it is obvious you are not bound by the normal reserve restrictions with DWA. If we were not forced to choose to use DWA earlier, I would agree with you. But the DWA choice was SPECIFICALLY DIVORCED from the choice to not deploy a unit to put it in reserve when deploying your army.

If I truely had a choice when deploying my army, I could deploy the DWA unit on the table, despite choosing to DWA earlier in the game. Instead, I have no choice to deploy or not deploy my DWA unit when deploying my army.

To Nos and deathreaper, your argument that 'Deployment' as defined by the box with 'roll warlord traits' is the exact same thing as 'when deploying their army' per page 124, and thus when rolling warlord traits you are bound by the 50% rule, is illogical and thread derailing. You know better. Stop calling a generic 'Deploy Forces' or 'Deployment' heading the same thing as 'when deploying their army.

You are, in essence, saying that 'Shooting Phase' and 'when taking their shooting phase' are identical. This is stupid. The first corresponds to both players generally, the second corresponds to individual players in their specific shooting phase, which happens at different times for each player.

Can I get these questions answered please.

Read P. 121 and look at the first thing that happens during "Deployment", and answer these two questions.

What is that first section?

When does DWA happen?

 helium42 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
But DWA is a choice, and nothing in the DWA rules says that it overrides the normal 50% restriction.

But the 50% rule deals specifically with placing units in reserve. Models using DWA are not held in reserve, and are chosen to make the DWA before reserves are chosen.

I think we won't have a consensus for this until it gets FAQ'd, and it is another example of poorly written rules.

All Deep Striking units are held in Reserve. All units not deployed on the table are in Reserve. Therefore all units performing a DWA are definitionally being held in Reserve.

The idea that DWA creates some new state of not being deployed but also not being in Reserve has no basis in the rules. Only in the imagination of people trying to find permission to do something which is pretty clearly against the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DevianID wrote:
To mannahnin, yes DWA is a choice. A choice done after warlord and before you get to deploy your army.

Then in deploying your army, you can make a SEPARATE choice to not deploy a unit. When making THIS choice, you may only not deploy half your units.

You are advocating that we choose to DWA after warlord, then roll for deployment, and when deploying choose A SECOND TIME to not deploy a unit that is in DWA.

This seems insane to me having to choose do to something a second time that I was FORCED to choose earlier, and is why I feel it is obvious you are not bound by the normal reserve restrictions with DWA. If we were not forced to choose to use DWA earlier, I would agree with you. But the DWA choice was SPECIFICALLY DIVORCED from the choice to not deploy a unit to put it in reserve when deploying your army.

If I truely had a choice when deploying my army, I could deploy the DWA unit on the table, despite choosing to DWA earlier in the game. Instead, I have no choice to deploy or not deploy my DWA unit when deploying my army.

You do have a choice. Right after Warlord traits IS when deployment happens, and DWA is part of your deployment and reserves decision. DWA is part of that normal process- it's just where you specifically designate that those units making a DWA are not going to roll for Reserves like the rest (if any) of your Reserved units.

Deathreaper, read my post. Asked and answered. You asking what warlord traits and the generic category Deploy Forces are over and over and over is pointless thread derailing. People who disagree with me also ignore your point that 'Deploy Forces' and 'when deploying their army' are identical. Between warlord traits and 'when deploying their army' you choose DWA, roll for psychic powers, roll to determine who will deploy first, and THEN the player that won the roll will be 'deploying their army.' Not a moment before.

Edit: missed mannahnin.

You do have a choice. Right after Warlord traits IS when deployment happens

Mannahin, Deployment the category begins before you roll warlord traits. DWA is NOT EVER done as part of your normal reserves decision, the rules make you use DWA before even knowing who has to deploy first.

If it worked like you say, then you could know how your opponent is reserving if they had to deploy first before making your DWA decision. I would like that rule better. Instead, your choice to DWA is before either player even knows who is deploying. The rules SPECIFICALLY DIVORCE the normal deployment rules and choice not to deploy with the DWA rules. They are completely different choices done at different times.

But Warlord traits and all those other steps are still part of the Deployment part of game setup.

All DWA is telling you to do is to specifically designate and set aside the units making a DWA from the rest of your Reserves (if any), because the DWA units won't be rolling for arrival like the others.

All DWA is telling you to do is to specifically designate and set aside the units making a DWA from the rest of your Reserves (if any)

There is no 'rest of reserves' when using DWA. DWA is chosen before you ever get to deploy your army where the rest of your reserves happen. You are either saying that DWA is the same choice as choosing not to deploy a unit when deploying your army, or that the DWA choice must be followed up with a second choice to not deploy your DWA unit when deploying your army.

We know it cant be the first option, as the choice to DWA is done very differently than a choice to not deploy a unit when deploying your army, and it cant be the second as when you get to deploy your army a unit that is DWA has no choice to deploy on the table.

Instead, DWA can only be a completely different choice than the choice not to deploy a unit when deploying your army. For this reason, it is not bound by the restriction when deploying your army to only reserve 50% of your units.

 Mannahnin wrote:
But Warlord traits and all those other steps are still part of the Deployment part of game setup.

All DWA is telling you to do is to specifically designate and set aside the units making a DWA from the rest of your Reserves (if any), because the DWA units won't be rolling for arrival like the others.

Exactly this.

The questions were not answered, as correct answers to those questions prove your argument incorrect.

Deathreaper, you are thusly saying with your incorrect statement, that when I am choosing which warlord branch to roll on, I am deploying my army? Those two things mean the same thing to you? After all, I am making a choice in deployment, it must therefore be said I am deploying my army?

Edit: to be clear, I am saying 'Deployment' and 'when deploying their army' are two separate things; you deploy your army in deployment, deploying your army is not all that happens in deployment. Why is that wrong? That is EXACTLY what we do in the movement phase. You move your models in the movement phase, moving your models is not all that happens in the movement phase. Choosing to use a psychic power at the start of the movement phase does not count as that unit moving despite it being an action in the movement phase.

DevianID wrote:
Deathreaper, you are thusly saying with your incorrect statement, that when I am choosing which warlord branch to roll on, I am deploying my army? Those two things mean the same thing to you?

What I am saying is: Reserves happen during deployment.

Guess what else happens during Deployment? (Hint determine Warlord Traits P.121 first section under deployment).

Also make a note of when DWA happens (After determining Warlord Traits).

Therefore the Restriction about 50% of your army can be held in reserve is in effect.

Find the rule stating more than 50% of the army may start in reserve if they are using DWA

Page and paragraph, or you don't have an argument.

Deathreaper, you may have missed my edit. The restriction on reserves happens ONLY WHEN DEPLOYING YOUR ARMY. Deploying your army happens during 'deployment', but not all things in 'deployment' are you deploying your army. Read the above edit about the movement phase. You are saying that DWA happens when you are deploying your army, thus the reserve restriction is in place. This is not true. DWA happens in deployment BEFORE deploying your army, thus the reserve restriction is not in place.

DevianID wrote:

All DWA is telling you to do is to specifically designate and set aside the units making a DWA from the rest of your Reserves (if any)

There is no 'rest of reserves' when using DWA. DWA is chosen before you ever get to deploy your army where the rest of your reserves happen. You are either saying that DWA is the same choice as choosing not to deploy a unit when deploying your army, or that the DWA choice must be followed up with a second choice to not deploy your DWA unit when deploying your army.

We know it cant be the first option, as the choice to DWA is done very differently than a choice to not deploy a unit when deploying your army,

I cannot grant you this premise. In fact the choice is made in almost exactly the same way.

In both cases, regular Reserves and DWA, right after you have determined Warlord traits, and right before you actually put units on the table, you select and designate what units will NOT be placed on the table, which are your Reserves. DWA, like regular Deep Striking, states that any units which are doing it MUST be held back instead of being deployed on the table.

If units are not deployed on the table, they are held in Reserve. DWA is another variant of Reserves, much like other Deep Striking, or like Outflanking, or like Wolf Scouts' Operate Behind Enemy Lines. In all three of those cases, you designate a given Reserved unit or units to arrive in a special way. And in all three of those cases, there is no special rule saying that these units are somehow exempted from the normal limit on reserving 50% of your army.

Unlike Flyers, Drop Pods, and Daemonic Assault, all of which are specifically exempted from the normal 50% limit specifically because there is NEVER a choice for them. They ALWAYS MUST start in Reserve.

In both cases, regular Reserves and DWA, right after you have determined Warlord traits, and right before you actually put units on the table, you select and designate what units will NOT be placed on the table, which are your Reserves. DWA, like regular Deep Striking, states that any units which are doing it MUST be held back instead of being deployed on the table.

I much prefer your responses I must say Mannahnin. Anyway, the order I see in the rule book goes like this.

DA choose what units are in combat squads
(Deployment)
Roll Warlord Traits
Units with DWA choose to use it or not and what turn
Roll Psychic Powers
Roll to see what army deploys first
"The player that goes first then places his entire army... His opponent then deploys his entire army"
(/deployment)
Roll to seize the initiative

Reserves rule: "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units keeping them as reserves to arrive later."

So as I have gathered from the book, they make numerous mention that deploying your army happens at a specific time under the heading of deployment. DWA happens at a separate very specific time in deployment. The reserve rules 1) does not preclude other rules from placing things in reserve aka skyleap/DWA 2) only limits units that choose not to deploy 'when deploying their army' again aka skyleap/DWA. At other times of the game, even if you are using a rule that has reserves attached to it, the reserve restriction only applies when deploying your army.

Thus, for example, a unit entering reserve via skyleap does not have the reserve restriction of 50%, because you are not deploying your army, nor are you choosing to not deploy the unit. You instead bypass the normal reserve rules and go right to reserve.

DWA works the same. You use your codex rule for DWA, it puts you in reserve at a seperate time and via seperate mechanics than the normal reserve rule. In addition, because GW went to great pains to divorce the DWA rules from normal reserve, the normal reserve restrion in place when choosing not to deploy a unit during your armies deployment step can never be observed, as is the case with skyleap.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Where is your substantive argument? All that is is gloating over a debate that is over.

Immediately doesn't create a new step in the game, it just dictates an order of operations.

Substantive argument? None that hasn't already been posted here, and lets face it neither side is listening to the other.

Gloating? You're right, it is and I apologise for it. But which way do you think GW will rule? Honestly.

Cheers

Andrew

I would like to also point out that "Reserves,' the rule in question that lets you not deploy 50% of your units, is a mission special rule.

If the reserve mission special rule is not in place, this does not change a units ability to use DWA, as a codex special rule that applies regardless of mission.

As I have been saying, the Reserve mission special rule that applies to up to half your units, does not apply to DWA units. You can DWA even in missions that do not use the 'Reserves' mission special rule.

More fuel for the fire that DWA is not limited by the reserves mission special rule.

Thoughts?

Doesn't having DS also allow you to be in reserves without the mission having it? Book is packed away not and not taking it back out.

Edit: LoB, no. Although Deep Strike does tell you that units which always must Deep Strike (like Pods and Daemons) may always do so, even if the mission doesn't include the rule.

DevianID wrote:

In both cases, regular Reserves and DWA, right after you have determined Warlord traits, and right before you actually put units on the table, you select and designate what units will NOT be placed on the table, which are your Reserves. DWA, like regular Deep Striking, states that any units which are doing it MUST be held back instead of being deployed on the table.

I much prefer your responses I must say Mannahnin. Anyway, the order I see in the rule book goes like this.

DA choose what units are in combat squads
(Deployment)
Roll Warlord Traits
Units with DWA choose to use it or not and what turn
Roll Psychic Powers
Roll to see what army deploys first
"The player that goes first then places his entire army... His opponent then deploys his entire army"
(/deployment)
Roll to seize the initiative

Reserves rule: "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units keeping them as reserves to arrive later."

DWA rule: Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves."

So as I have gathered from the book, they make numerous mention that deploying your army happens at a specific time under the heading of deployment. DWA happens at a separate very specific time in deployment.

I see the timing difference. I disagree that it makes a material difference. Everything that happens in your sequence is part of Deployment, per page 121. Warlord traits, DWA, psychic powers, all other kinds of Reserves, and actually placing units on the table are all handled in Deployment. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the person who wrote the DWA rule didn't even think about Psychic Powers or rolling to see who deploys first, because if you just look at page 121, what immediately follows "Determine Warlord Traits" is "Deploy Forces".

The reserve rules 1) does not preclude other rules from placing things in reserve aka skyleap/DWA 2) only limits units that choose not to deploy 'when deploying their army' again aka skyleap/DWA. At other times of the game, even if you are using a rule that has reserves attached to it, the reserve restriction only applies when deploying your army.

Thus, for example, a unit entering reserve via skyleap does not have the reserve restriction of 50%, because you are not deploying your army, nor are you choosing to not deploy the unit. You instead bypass the normal reserve rules and go right to reserve.

DWA works the same. You use your codex rule for DWA, it puts you in reserve at a seperate time and via seperate mechanics than the normal reserve rule. In addition, because GW went to great pains to divorce the DWA rules from normal reserve, the normal reserve restrion in place when choosing not to deploy a unit during your armies deployment step can never be observed, as is the case with skyleap.

I think you're really straining at gnats and swallowing camels here. DWA is much more like normal Deep Strike than it is like Skyleap. Skyleap is used DURING the middle of the game. DWA is used during the Deployment part of pre-game setup, which is also when you do all your other Reserve determinations.

Seriously, if GW intended for DWA to bypass the normal 50% reserve limit, don't you think they'd come out and say that explicitly? Like they have done with Drop Pods, Flyers, and even Daemonic Assault? If any rule should have been obvious enough for them to leave it implicit, Daemonic Assault is certainly it. Yet they still felt the need to come out and say "yeah, we really mean it; the WHOLE ARMY".

No, to deep strike you must all have the deep strike special rule, and you must start the game in reserve, per page 36 par 1. The exception is that units that must arrive via deep strike can do so when the reserve mission special rule is not in place, per pg 36 par 2.

Edit: ninja'd by mannahnin with my post.

To mannahnin,

Seriously, if GW intended for DWA to bypass the normal 50% reserve limit, don't you think they'd come out and say that explicitly?

Do you feel that DWA uses the normal 'Reserves' mission special rule, which allows 50% of your units to choose not to deploy? Or is DWA a codex rule as opposed to the mission based Reserves special rule. I can not in good faith say that DWA uses the normal 50% reserve limit because it does not use any of the other normal reserve rules--it is not done when deploying your army, it does not roll, and it does not seem to be mission specific.

As to skyleap not being equivelent, it says units put in reserve during a game follow all rules for reserves. You are equating the 50% as a rule for reserve regardless of timing inconsistencies, hence why DWA and Skyleap would be borked. I am equating DWA and Skyleap as reserves that are not being put in reserve via the mission special rule for reserves which allows you to not deploy half your force 'when deploying your army.'

its normal with altering some rules

DevianID wrote:
To mannahnin,

Seriously, if GW intended for DWA to bypass the normal 50% reserve limit, don't you think they'd come out and say that explicitly?

Do you feel that DWA uses the normal 'Reserves' mission special rule, which allows 50% of your units to choose not to deploy? Or is DWA a codex rule as opposed to the mission based Reserves special rule. I can not in good faith say that DWA uses the normal 50% reserve limit because it does not use any of the other normal reserve rules--it is not done when deploying your army, it does not roll, and it does not seem to be mission specific.

It is clearly Reserves, because you're not deploying the unit. They are held in Reserve to Deep Strike. The only difference is that you secretly pick when they will arrive; rather than rolling. Occam's Razor is in effect here. Do not make things more complicated than they need to be. There is no explicit statement that DWA creates some special new category apart from Reserve or Deployed, so we should not leap to the conclusion that it is intended to do so, but they just forgot to come out and say so.

I'm also relying on the general principal of Break No Rule. If one interpretation requires a conflict with another rule, and another interpretation does not, the one not creating a conflict is preferred. My interpretation allows DWA to work without creating a conflict with the normal 50% Reserve limit. Since DWA does not explicitly say it overrides the limit on Reserves, we should not create a conflict between them if we don't have to.

DevianID wrote:
As to skyleap not being equivelent, it says units put in reserve during a game follow all rules for reserves. You are equating the 50% as a rule for reserve regardless of timing inconsistencies, hence why DWA and Skyleap would be borked. I am equating DWA and Skyleap as reserves that are not being put in reserve via the mission special rule for reserves which allows you to not deploy half your force 'when deploying your army.'

IMO Skyleap is not even vaguely similar, as it happens mid-game, after all deployment decisions have finished and the game turns have started. Under my interpretation DWA still happens as part of the normal deployment sequence.

DevianID wrote:
No, to deep strike you must all have the deep strike special rule, and you must start the game in reserve, per page 36 par 1. The exception is that units that must arrive via deep strike can do so when the reserve mission special rule is not in place, per pg 36 par 2.

Edit: ninja'd by mannahnin with my post.

To mannahnin,

Seriously, if GW intended for DWA to bypass the normal 50% reserve limit, don't you think they'd come out and say that explicitly?

Do you feel that DWA uses the normal 'Reserves' mission special rule, which allows 50% of your units to choose not to deploy? Or is DWA a codex rule as opposed to the mission based Reserves special rule. I can not in good faith say that DWA uses the normal 50% reserve limit because it does not use any of the other normal reserve rules--it is not done when deploying your army, it does not roll, and it does not seem to be mission specific.

As to skyleap not being equivelent, it says units put in reserve during a game follow all rules for reserves. You are equating the 50% as a rule for reserve regardless of timing inconsistencies, hence why DWA and Skyleap would be borked. I am equating DWA and Skyleap as reserves that are not being put in reserve via the mission special rule for reserves which allows you to not deploy half your force 'when deploying your army.'

It is most certainly Reserves, because that is a requirement of you in deepstriking; if the Mission special rule is not in force they are not able to DWA, because they cannot fufill the requirements for DS - starting the game in reserves.

DEPLOY FORCES is fairly succinct; your timing argument is incredibly strained., and fails due to page 121

Nos i answered the questions:

Does anything else happen at the step for DWA? No

Does it allow you to start with nothing on the board? Yes

Now answer these questions:

Is there a rule that dictates how many units start on the board?

Does deathwing assault get declared when i am setting up my army after the roll off for who sets up first?

It is most certainly Reserves, because that is a requirement of you in deepstriking;

I disagree that if the mission special rule Reserves is not in effect you can not DWA. You arrive via deep strike, which is separate from units making a deep strike. Reserves applies to units making a deep strike, DWA tells you you are making a DWA.
DWA, the codex rule, does not use the mission special rule Reserves like normal deep strike does in its write up. "All units making a DWA automatically arrive via deepstrike." It does not say you are making a deep strike. That is an important difference there--you are making a DWA, you are not making a deep strike. DWA just happens to arrive via deep strike, like many other rules do.

If you look on page 36, they make a clear distinction between Deep Strike and Arriving by Deep Strike. Many units arrive by deep strike as a function of their special rule, and they dont need to use the Reserves mission special rule to do it.

Furthermore, consider infiltrate. A unit with infiltrate does not need the Reserves mission special rule, and does not deploy with their army. When setting infiltrators aside in your armies deployment, they are neither deployed nor are they in reserve. They are simply waiting their turn to deploy on the board.

Consider the language in all the other Reserve mission special rules such as outflank and deep strike. These all specifically state they make use of the Reserve mission special rule. DWA does not. Is Occrams razor thus more appropriate to say that DWA simply does not use the Reserves mission special rule? After all, DWA is completely self contained in itself. There is no need to roll for reserves, after all, because you are not arriving via the Reserves mission special rule--if you were, it would say you are. A unit doesn't use the Tank Hunter special rule if it doesn't say you do, why have you been using the Reserve mission special rule without telling you to?

Note: You can absolutely be in reserve without the mission special rule Reserve being used. Daemons can do it, Drop Pods do it, Flyers do it, and anything that removes you from the table such as skyleap does it. They make a distinction between being in reserves and Reserve with a capital numerous times as well. The 50% restriction is for Reserves, not reserves, as defined on page 124.

In conclusion, the reasons why DWA does not use the 50% limit include:

You DWA at a time other than the explicit step of 'when deploying your army.' The 50% limit is 'when deploying your army.'

DWA does not even use the Reserves mission special rule, as both deep strike and outflank do. The 50% limit applies to 'Reserves,' capitalized, and they make a distinction between units in reserve and units using the mission special rule 'Reserves.'

The codex of DA includes all the rules needed to DWA other than how to arrive via deep strike, which is something many units reference and does not mean you are in Reserves (capitalized) making a Deep Strike (which can not be done with DWA due to timing, they must decline their DWA to use their Deep Strike rule). The DWA has no restrictions on it, and is a specific and advanced rule for how DW terminators arrive on the battlefield, with zero conflicts in resolving itself unless you add other rules to it (such as the mission specific special rule Reserve that is never mentioned).

Units arriving Via Deep Strike = units making a deep strike.

Unless you are speaking a different language and have different definitions that do not equate the two terms.

I think from a RAW stand point this is done now. The points have been made so either you can DWA with everything or you and your opponent deploy simultaneously which is forbidden in the rules. There is no rule demanding we deploy anything when deploying our armies. There is only a restriction on flyers the number of unit we can choose to put in reserve when we deploy our army (which due to page 121 we are not doing when we DWA).

Or you could not break the 50% reserves rule.

How am i breaking the 50% reserves rule? Do you even know what that rule says?

Now we're degrading into saying Deep Strike is different from Arriving by Deep Strike. Despite the fact that the ENTIRE Deep Strike entry broken off to get its own entire page, and a sub-section of it is arriving by deep strike, aka how to get your models on the board when you use Deep Strike. Did you realize the part that says "Arriving by Deep Strike" is in a smaller font from "Deep Strike?" Do you read the rulebook and take every minor header in bold as a completely new section of the game?

This is like saying the "Fight Sub-phase" is not part of the "Assault Phase" because it's listed as it's own thing.

10 pages of people saying DWA means you're forced to stay in reserves because they're Deep Striking, thus bypassing the 50% rule, and now the argument is that they AREN'T Deep Striking?

Pg 124, "Preparing Reserves", "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later". But wait! It says we're allowed to when we are "deploying" (lower-case 'd'). There is no step called "deploying their armies", so I guess nobody can ever use Reserves ever.

 FlingitNow wrote:
How am i breaking the 50% reserves rule? Do you even know what that rule says?

Yes; you clearly do not, as has been proven the RAW case is clear, DWA does not allow you to break the 50% rule

How am i breaking that rule? The rules that i can place upto half my units in reserve when deploying my army. How on earth am i breaking that rule?