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Nivek, when you use gate of infinity the models arrive via deepstrike. Do you feel that using gate of infinity makes you go into reserve, and your entire unit must have the deep strike rule to use gate of infinity? Or is there a distinction between going into Reserves with Deep Strike and arriving via deep strike.

Arriving by deepstrike is a common thing for many units who are not deep striking. Dwa is one of them. Don't forget dwa units can also deep strike as a completely seperate option. That alone tells you that dwa is not a deep strike per the deep strike reserve usr.

Here's some questions for you:

Do both player have their turns at the same time or do we do it one at time?

Therefore during your turn am I having my turn?

When you roll for steal the initiative am I having my turn?

By the same logic do we deploy our armies at the same time or do we do it one at a time?

Therefore when you are deploying your army whilst your opponent is deploying his?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are rolling of to see who deploys their army first?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are declaring.g DWA?

ItsPug wrote:

 helium42 wrote:
Models using DWA are not held in reserve.

This idea has been debunked repeatedly.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." P. 36 BRB

DWA specifically says you do not need to roll for reserves because they automatically deep strike on the chosen turn. why would they tell you not to roll for reserves if the unit was not in reserve?

Maybe debunked on your opinion, but there are other opinions out there.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." P. 36 BRB

The DWA rule might alter some of the rules of deep strike, like the one that states that all models in the unit must have been placed in reserve. It certainly breaks some of the conditions of reserve, listed below:

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later... At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or rnore, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in reserve and is rolled for agaln next turn... At the start of your Turn Three, roll for any units remaining in reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in reserve and automatically arrives at the start of Turn Four... Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive frorn reserve. Regardlessof the modifier(s), a natural roll of a I always rneans that the unit in question remains in reserve....

So if DWA is allowed to break some of the rules for reserves (if you say DWA models must be held in reserve), then why can they not break some of the rules for deep strike (namely the rule that all models that deep strike must start the game in reserve)? Other units can deep strike without starting the game in reserve. Swooping Hawks that have skyleaped or units that deep strike via a GK librarian's Summoning power come to mind immediately.

When I asked about this issue in my local store, all 6 staff at the Dudley Games Workshop (UK) agreed that DWA does not bypass the Reserve rules. The store manager called his friend (and fellow store manager) at the Birmingham branch who also agreed.
Additionally, they added that the Throne of Skulls of tournament was quite clear that DWA does not circumvent the need to first put the Deep Striking units into Reserve before they deploy, they are still bound by the rules of the game as per the BRB. The consensus was that rule is designed to allow the Dark Angels player to Deep Strike from Reserve (as per all of the normal rules) but that DWA simply bypasses the need to roll for their arrival, giving the player a tactical edge of deciding which round they arrive instead of relying on a D6 3+ on turn 2.

This is good enough for me and settles the issue in my mind. If you disagree and your opponent allows you to keep your entire army off the table then feel free to take advantage of it. I will not be allowing Dark Angels players to employ such a tactic against me, at least until GW issue an FAQ explicitly allowing it.

Helium - it only breaks those rules it explicitly overrides, like not rolling. Continuing to claim that this is a new form of not-Reserves is, at this point, entirely unsupportable. It isnt opinion but FACT

Does it say they do not go into reserves? No. So they do. Easy

Fling - so a restriction during Deploy Forces isnt in place during Deploy Forces? Interesting new idea, I can now reserve anything I like, just by declaring it isnt part of deploy forces! Genius!

Yes you can reserve anything as long as you have permission to do so. The restriction on 50% is only when you are deploying your army. As yet no one else has permission to declare reserves at other time...

Nos, its not a restriction during deploy forces. It is a restriction "when deploying your army" that applies to units that "choose not to deploy" with the mission special rule Reserve. As i thought you were a raw rules reader, why do you use terms that are not written in the Reserve rule to support your position.

As to the UK stores, I have experienced similiar reactions here. While it doesn't apply one way or another to any of my dark angel forces though, I still believe adding the Reserve mission special rule to dwa, when dwa makes no such mention and works fine without it, is not in keeping with the intentions of the rule. They went to lengths to change when and how dwa units use dwa versus just using the existing reserve and deep strike rule. I see applying the Reserve special rule to dwa akin to applying tank Hunters to lemon Russ vanquisher because the vanquisher hunts tanks. The rules don't, or shouldn't, work like that. Reserve modifiers like out flank and deepstrike say they use the Reserve mission special rule. Dwa does not.

After reading through all 11 pages of this...ugh, I'm gonna lean towards they "no.they dont" crowd, however I totally agree that it is not clear, what is clear is that there will be no agreement on this and the argument is rotating around in circles, this thread needs locking

 jegsar wrote:
They have the option to start on the table, so you are still limited to the 50% rule. Having said that, I wouldn't want to play a list with no heavy support options in it.

I always thought this was a safe rule of thumb. Half of your army, which has a choice to be on the field or DS, must be on the field. Is this wrong?

 Formosa wrote:
I totally agree that it is not clear

In situations like this If there is equal weight, choosing the option that gives the action taker less advantage is the more ethical choice.

So if the rules may or may not allow you to take a specific action that has an impact on the game, don't take it.

Devian - so how are they NOT using the mission special rule Reserves, given you are told they are Deep Striking, all capitalised and key-worded?

Why, when everything ELSE that can ignore the 50% rule uses the word "MUST" do they NOT use this, but are explicit in your choice to do so?

Why, when the wording for TDA has changed did they bother to change it, when they wanted you to ALWAYS be able to be put in DS Reserves?

"DEploy Forces" and "deploy your army" are all in the same section, and the restrictions are in force throughout that section as they interchange force and army. YOur incredibly narrow reading has no support.

Nos can you answer the questions i posted at the top of this page. If you Do i believe you will understand the RAW as your argument really has no basis in the rules. You may well have an RaIl argument but for me the intention is not clear so i will follow RaW.

If you follow the RAW you also follow the 50% reserve rule.

I do follow the 50% rule. I don't see how putting my whole army into DWA is in conflict with that rule. Read that rule and tell me how i am breaking it by putting 0 units into reserve when i deploy my army.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I do follow the 50% rule. I don't see how putting my whole army into DWA is in conflict with that rule. Read that rule and tell me how i am breaking it by putting 0 units into reserve when i deploy my army.

Except the DWA guys are in reserve, that is what you are not understanding.

Therefore more than 50% of your army is in reserve.

Yes they are in reserve there is no rule anywhere that governs how many units i can have in reserve. So actually answer the question on how im breaking the rule on pg124. Please quote what part is being broken.

The part where, during deploy forces, more than 50% of your army ends up in reserves without permission to be there.

Not. Difficult.

It is clear, only a very very narrow reading which ignores forces == army (and therefore actual rules) can state otherwise. I prefer not to assume an advantage explicitly denied by the actual written rules.

There is no restriction on how many units end up in reserve though nos. So what are you talking about?

Is this another question you can't answer like the ones above?

I think you can just admit your argument is done now.

"W'hen deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so." P. 124

Is the DWA done after warlord traits?

Are Warlord Traits in the Deployment section? (Check P. 121)

DWA also happens in the deployment section or "Phase" therefore you must abide by only putting half in reserves.

So Forces != Army?

Is this similar to the TH/SS + Cyclone argument you were incapable of answering?

I've never said forces /= armies. I don't see how that's relevant.

I have scoured the Dark angels codex through and through and No where do I find permission to avoid or dismiss the 50% on the table rule.

The rule for Deathwing Assault is clear. Alowed to arrive turn 1 or 2 with no rolls needed and your opponent dosent know when.

A couple of you have stated you get to ignore the 50% rule through some magic of thought however let me pose a question to you.

If you chooses to deathwing assault your entire army on turn 2 would you then loose at the bottom of turn one?
Since theres another rule that states if theres nothing on the table at the end of your turn you loose.

Or does deathwing assault also magically remove this from your army also?

One more question..

Also if you are allowed to reserve everything to arrive on turn 2 and dont loose at the bottom of turn one, then WHY on gods green earth did GW FAil to mention this anywhere in the codex, FAQ or Digital version?

IMHO the reason for the 50% rule was to keep TFG from reserving all and walking on at the bottom of turn 2 Like he won the roll off and suffers no penalty and gets to shoot first. It was a cheesy way to play a game and Im sure they felt it had to go.I know I sure did.

 liam0404 wrote:
I don't have the codex to hand - the reason I ask is that it just says in Deathwing assault that "you can choose", so i'm not sure if this overrides the 50% restriction or not.

You "May" or "Choose" would be the same thing, Drop Pods "have" to arrive via deep strike, terminators do 'not.' You would only be able to have 50% in reserves.

Lungpickle i think you need to read the reserves rule there is no rule governing how many you must deploy on the table. There is also no rule restricting how many units you can have in reserve. Yes if you choose to DWA your entire army turn 2 you autolose. Just like if necrons choose to field their entire army in flyers...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So nos and the 50% crowd are you really suggesting that rule is active through put deploying your forces? So at any point i can put units into reserve as that restriction is only active when im using it to put units into reserve. By your interpretation if i deploy first i can wait till you finish deploying before declaring reserves?

Because the restriction on "army" is under the section on "forces", telling you that it applies throughout that section.

Your timing argument is no different to the same debunked argument given in two threads now

LOL-REALLY

when deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half their units rounding up..

Whats that seriously its an amount of up to half rounding up, page 124 reserves

Under deploy forces page121 BRB.the player that goes first deploys his entire army in his deployment zone.

See these two rules work hand in hand. one says all or entire the other with the special rule RESERVEs allows you to reserve up TO half. IE 50%.

Essentially its a matter of your interpritation of a rule that you would like to benefit from. However terminator can deepstrike in without DWA. So you put your forces in reserve declair how they are coming in and at that point you woul;d say these dudes are using the DWA rule. Thats all the reserve limit is still in effect. DONT get me wrong I understand where your coming from. The onus would be on you to make sure you have something on the table at the end of turn one. I let my bud do this early on in the 6th edition and I just made him go first. It was a good game and we both got to shoot something in our turns.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because the restriction on "army" is under the section on "forces", telling you that it applies throughout that section.

Your timing argument is no different to the same debunked argument given in two threads now

so hopefully for the final time now it is not a restriction it is an allowance. I am allowed to put 50% of my army in reserves when deploying my army. Are you saying that allowance is valid for all of deploying.g forces not just when i am deploying my army like it says in the rules.

Even if this ludicrous statement was true it would still have no bearing on DWA which as pointed several times now does not occur during deploy forces and is not done using the reserves special rule.

Yes, it is permission. Which is also a restriciton on placing more than half in.

It really DOES use Reserves. You see those rules for Deep Strike, which require you to be in reserves, and those rules in DWA which mention not lling for Reserves....shock, its reserves

Your argument is as flawed and refuted as ever. Concede

So just flat out ignoring the rules and all direct questions and failing to argue any points raised.

So again I'll ask if you don't answer this time I'll take it as you conceding the point.

Can i put stuff in reserve at any point during deploy your forces as your interpretation makes me?

Do both playesr have their turns at the same time or do we do it one at time?

Therefore during your turn am I having my turn?

When you roll for steal the initiative am I having my turn?

By the same logic do we deploy our armies at the same time or do we do it one at a time?

Therefore when you are deploying your army am I deploying mine?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are rolling of to see who deploys their army first?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are declaring.g DWA?

You already conceded the argument, I will not engage in your wall of text any further.

Can you answer why you seem to still think you are not placing them in Reserves? Given the rule DIRECTLY REFERENCES Reserves, I really want to know the convoluted knot of illogic you come up with this time.