Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DevianID wrote:
Nivek, when you use gate of infinity the models arrive via deepstrike. Do you feel that using gate of infinity makes you go into reserve, and your entire unit must have the deep strike rule to use gate of infinity? Or is there a distinction between going into Reserves with Deep Strike and arriving via deep strike.

1. Gate of Infinity takes place after the game has begun. 50% rule explicitly affects units that must start the game in reserve.
2. Gate of Infinity instructs you to "remove from the tabletop and immediately place back together anywhere within 24" ".
3. Gate of Infinity uses "deep strike" (lowercase), DWA uses "Deep Strike" (uppercase)
4. Gate of Infinity was written in 5th edition, an edition that had no 50% rule.
5. Gate of Infinity explicitly states every way it functions differently from the Deep Strike rules.

Take your pick.

DevianID wrote:Arriving by deepstrike is a common thing for many units who are not deep striking. Dwa is one of them. Don't forget dwa units can also deep strike as a completely seperate option. That alone tells you that dwa is not a deep strike per the deep strike reserve usr

The fact that Deathwing can make a normal Deep Strike is, in fact, additional evidence that a Deathwing Assault is a choice, and thus subject to the 50% rule. Drop Pods, Spores, Daemons, Marbo, they all mention that they *must* start in reserve. Nothing about DWA says they must start in reserve. The closest thing to DWA is Ymgarl Genestealers, because they both secretly write down information pertaining to when/how they arrive, they both explicitly say it's a choice (YG: "elect", DWA: "may"), and they both mention reserves. Ymgarl Genestealers are certainly subject to the 50% rule.

Thank you for finally conceding nos.

As for your question i can answer it (one of the great things about being right).

It is impossible to use DWA and be using the reserves rules to place stuff in reserve. That is because they both require you to act at different times. You can not use the reserves rule without breaking DWA. So you have a choice between breaking the rules or following them as i do.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Thank you for finally conceding nos.

As for your question i can answer it (one of the great things about being right).

It is impossible to use DWA and be using the reserves rules to place stuff in reserve. That is because they both require you to act at different times. You can not use the reserves rule without breaking DWA. So you have a choice between breaking the rules or following them as i do.

If you're not putting them in Reserve they cannot arrive from Reserve without rolling meaning they can never enter the battlefield.
Good job.

Nivek5150 point1. Is way of the 50% rule dictates what you can put in reserve when deploying your army. It is completely silent on what starts in reserve and has no bearing on that.

FlingitNow wrote:Nivek5150 point1. Is way of the 50% rule dictates what you can put in reserve when deploying your army. It is completely silent on what starts in reserve and has no bearing on that.

You keep criticizing people for not being able to read and comprehend the rules, but then you make incoherent, run-on sentences filled with inaccuracies and typos so that I can't even understand what you're trying to say.

If you're trying to construct a sentence telling me that the 50% rule does not apply to "starting" the game, you are quite incorrect.

Pg 124, BRB: "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so."

Pg 36, BRB, "Deep Strike": "Some units that [sic] must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike... are ignored."

In any case, I give 5 reasons why his argument is invalid and you offer up a flimsy attempt at refuting only one of them. I take it you then agree with the other 4?

FlingitNow wrote:It is impossible to use DWA and be using the reserves rules to place stuff in reserve. That is because they both require you to act at different times. You can not use the reserves rule without breaking DWA. So you have a choice between breaking the rules or following them as i do.

That is a completely ridiculous argument. There are countless examples of models that use a specific rule, with certain extenuating circumstances, slight changes or alternate timing. These rules always explicitly mention how they behave differently than normal. Deathwing Assault uses the words "Deep Strike" and "reserves" in its rule, and you want to claim it has nothing to do with either one? The only exceptions Deathwing Assault is granted is that the controlling player gets to choose which turn it arrives from reserves without having to roll.

If we use the premise that DWA is not Deep Strike, if I use a Deathwing Assault and I scatter into impassable terrain or off the table, what do I do?

Okay. Read 12 pages now and still confused. I can see the argument for both sides and I am not advocating either way but I have some questions.

1. Units that must start in Reserves are not counted towards the 50% rule.
2. Units that can choose to start in Reserves are counted towards the 50% rule.
3. Units that are Deep Striking must start in Reserves.

So, here is my question - Does not using DWA (regardless of all the timing blah) change the status of the unit from being able to choose to be placed in Reserves to must be placed in Reserves as it is Deep Striking?

Now, I've seen people say "using DWA is a choice" but that is not the same as choosing to put a unit into Reserve or not. It's choosing to use a special rule. The choice to use that special rule has nothing to do with the choice to place a unit in Reserve, however, choosing to use that special rule then modifies the unit's status regarding Reserves, does it not?

Example:

I declare DWA on Squads A and B. Squads A and B now must be placed in Reserves because they are Deep Striking (not because I chose to place them there).
I choose to place Squads C, D, E into Reserves, thereby using up my 50% limit (rounded up).
Because Squads A and B are under the effects of the DWA rule they must (Deep Strike) be in Reserve and therefore do not count towards the limit.

So, if the above example is the case it would be entirely possible to nominate Squads A through D to DWA and start with them all off the table.

Personally from reading the rules I don't think they're clear cut enough that any consensus will be reached without an FAQ. I'm not fussed either way, I just enjoy the discussion.

It doesn't actually say in the DWA rules that the units are placed in reserves. It actually says that players do not have to roll reserves. So all I can agree with is we have a poor written rule. DW players will want this to work differently than all others lol.

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
Okay. Read 12 pages now and still confused. I can see the argument for both sides and I am not advocating either way but I have some questions.

1. Units that must start in Reserves are not counted towards the 50% rule.
2. Units that can choose to start in Reserves are counted towards the 50% rule.
3. Units that are Deep Striking must start in Reserves.

So, here is my question - Does not using DWA (regardless of all the timing blah) change the status of the unit from being able to choose to be placed in Reserves to must be placed in Reserves as it is Deep Striking?

Now, I've seen people say "using DWA is a choice" but that is not the same as choosing to put a unit into Reserve or not. It's choosing to use a special rule. The choice to use that special rule has nothing to do with the choice to place a unit in Reserve, however, choosing to use that special rule then modifies the unit's status regarding Reserves, does it not?

Example:

I declare DWA on Squads A and B. Squads A and B now must be placed in Reserves because they are Deep Striking (not because I chose to place them there).
I choose to place Squads C, D, E into Reserves, thereby using up my 50% limit (rounded up).
Because Squads A and B are under the effects of the DWA rule they must (Deep Strike) be in Reserve and therefore do not count towards the limit.

So, if the above example is the case it would be entirely possible to nominate Squads A through D to DWA and start with them all off the table.

Personally from reading the rules I don't think they're clear cut enough that any consensus will be reached without an FAQ. I'm not fussed either way, I just enjoy the discussion.

Let me ask you this, does a model with DWA have to start in reserve, or can he start on the table? If he has to start in reserves (see Flyers, Drop Pods, Lictors) then they do not count. If they can be deployed on the table, they do count. FlingItNow's argument basically comes down:

1. They are not in Reserves and therefore don't count.
2. DWA is declared before you deploy your army therefore they must start in reserve and do not count.

The problem with 1 is that if they are not in reserve and they are not deployed they have no permission to come onto the table.
The problem with 2 is that if the 50% rule only applies when you are actually deploying, what's to stop the player who deploys second from declaring units are deep striking or outflanking while their opponent is deploying? Since the second player has declared prior to his own deployment to the table, all those units must now start in reserve and would not count.

anthXIII wrote:
It doesn't actually say in the DWA rules that the units are placed in reserves. It actually says that players do not have to roll reserves. So all I can agree with is we have a poor written rule. DW players will want this to work differently than all others lol.

Nah... I wouldn't care either way.

I'd just adjust my own tactics accordingly.

 Happyjew wrote:

Let me ask you this, does a model with DWA have to start in reserve, or can he start on the table? If he has to start in reserves (see Flyers, Drop Pods, Lictors) then they do not count. If they can be deployed on the table, they do count. FlingItNow's argument basically comes down:

1. They are not in Reserves and therefore don't count.
2. DWA is declared before you deploy your army therefore they must start in reserve and do not count.

The problem with 1 is that if they are not in reserve and they are not deployed they have no permission to come onto the table.
The problem with 2 is that if the 50% rule only applies when you are actually deploying, what's to stop the player who deploys second from declaring units are deep striking or outflanking while their opponent is deploying? Since the second player has declared prior to his own deployment to the table, all those units must now start in reserve and would not count.

Not sure what you're getting at here as my post was not in response to FlingitNow's post.

In answer to your question a model with DWA can; A) Start in Reserve B) Start on the table or C) Choose to use DWA, placing him in Reserve by default.

My thoughts on the matter are based around what constitutes a 'choice to be placed in Reserve' here. If the DWA rule is not in effect then yes, the unit does count towards the 50% because it has a choice. However when the DWA rule is played (remember that it's separate from Reserves, it's a special rule) any unit nominated for DWA cannot choose to deploy on the table they MUST be in Reserve. To my mind that suggests that once DWA has been played any nominated units cannot count towards the 50% limit because they must be placed in Reserve from that point forward. The choice to play DWA initially is not the same as the choice as to whether a unit can or must be placed in Reserve.

That's why I think this rule is ambiguous and needs an FAQ. As is it can be interpreted both ways.

It's not a question of whether the unit can choose. It's a question of whether you, the player, can choose.

Can I choose to deploy a unit of DW terminators on the table? Yes, I can. So they count toward the limit.

Can I choose to deploy a Vendetta, a Drop Pod, or an of the units in a Chaos Daemons army on the table? No, I cannot. So they do not count toward the limit.

 Mannahnin wrote:
It's not a question of whether the unit can choose. It's a question of whether you, the player, can choose.

Can I choose to deploy a unit of DW terminators on the table? Yes, I can. So they count toward the limit.

Can I choose to deploy a Vendetta, a Drop Pod, or an of the units in a Chaos Daemons army on the table? No, I cannot. So they do not count toward the limit.

As I said, ambiguity in the writing of the DWA rule.

Can you choose to deploy a unit of DW terminators on the table? Yes. So they count towards the limit.

Can you choose to deploy a nominated unit of DW terminators on the table after the DWA rule as been played? No. So they don't count towards the limit.

The argument I see people making is that initially, you have a choice to deploy the unit or not but I don't think that stands as once you've played DWA that choice is removed. The decision to play DWA or not is separate to the decision to hold something in Reserve and so saying, "Can you choose to deploy the terminators?" before choosing to DWA or not is nonsensical. Once the decision on DWA has been made, then the question of whether a unit can deploy or must deploy is made. Yes, under normal deployment conditions the DW have a choice and so count towards the 50% limit but once DWA has been played it's no longer normal deployment conditions.

That is where the ambiguity is. GW needs to come out and say whether or not units affected by DWA count towards the limit. There's not much use in the discussion continuing because the writing is not clear enough to work out a solid ruling.

Please note that I am not arguing either for or against here, just my interpretation of what I have read. I have no intention of ever fielding a DW army even though I am playing DA... I like Tactical Marines too much

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
It's not a question of whether the unit can choose. It's a question of whether you, the player, can choose.

Can I choose to deploy a unit of DW terminators on the table? Yes, I can. So they count toward the limit.

Can I choose to deploy a Vendetta, a Drop Pod, or an of the units in a Chaos Daemons army on the table? No, I cannot. So they do not count toward the limit.

As I said, ambiguity in the writing of the DWA rule.

Can you choose to deploy a unit of DW terminators on the table? Yes. So they count towards the limit.

Can you choose to deploy a nominated unit of DW terminators on the table after the DWA rule as been played? No. So they don't count towards the limit.

The argument I see people making is that initially, you have a choice to deploy the unit or not but I don't think that stands as once you've played DWA that choice is removed. The decision to play DWA or not is separate to the decision to hold something in Reserve and so saying, "Can you choose to deploy the terminators?" before choosing to DWA or not is nonsensical. Once the decision on DWA has been made, then the question of whether a unit can deploy or must deploy is made. Yes, under normal deployment conditions the DW have a choice and so count towards the 50% limit but once DWA has been played it's no longer normal deployment conditions.

That is where the ambiguity is. GW needs to come out and say whether or not units affected by DWA count towards the limit. There's not much use in the discussion continuing because the writing is not clear enough to work out a solid ruling.

Please note that I am not arguing either for or against here, just my interpretation of what I have read. I have no intention of ever fielding a DW army even though I am playing DA... I like Tactical Marines too much

The problem with the "DWA must DS because I nominated them" is the same as saying that any unit you nominate to DS must start in reserve and therefore would not count towards the limit.

Can you choose to deploy a nominated unit of DW terminators on the table after the DWA rule as been played? No. So they don't count towards the limit.

By that same logic no Deep Striking unit counts toward the limit, because Deep Strike says that a unit which is Deep Striking MUST be kept in reserve.

There's no real ambiguity here. Every single unit which doesn't count toward the reserve limit has an explicit rule stating so, and why. Flyers, Pods, Characters or other units in Flyers or Pods, and Daemons all have specific rules stating that they do not count toward the limit.

DWA includes no such statement.

 Happyjew wrote:


The problem with the "DWA must DS because I nominated them" is the same as saying that any unit you nominate to DS must start in reserve and therefore would not count towards the limit.

By that same logic no Deep Striking unit counts toward the limit, because Deep Strike says that a unit which is Deep Striking MUST be kept in reserve.

There's no real ambiguity here. Every single unit which doesn't count toward the reserve limit has an explicit rule stating so, and why. Flyers, Pods, Characters or other units in Flyers or Pods, and Daemons all have specific rules stating that they do not count toward the limit.

DWA includes no such statement.

Hmm. Both good points. I will have to go and re-read everything and think about it.

Why is this so difficult to understand? I'll try to explain using a simple example:

We have time points and marbles and rules when we can put marbles into a box:

Time point 0 normally nothing happen here
TP1 a states you may put upto half your marbles into the box
TP2 a game starts
TP3+ there are other ways of putting marbles into the box.

People are equating the rule at TP1 to you may not have more than half your marbles in the box at TP2. Under normal circumstances this has no impact. Then i introduce a new rule at TP0:

TP0 you may put any red marbles into the box.

I then notice all my marbles are red. I can therefore put them all into the box at TP0 without breaking the rule at TP1 because they never interact.

The rules here are the same but the box is reserves the marbles are units and red marbles are deathwing. Are you seeing your mistake yet?

There is no restriction on how many units start the game either in reserve or on the table. There only an allowance to place units in reserve when you are deploying your army. That allowance only occurs at that point it has no impact on how many units are in reserve at any other point in the game.

Sorry about typos im on my phone with a bad touch screen and next to no ability to edit.

This really says it all:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your timing argument is no different to the same debunked argument given in two threads now

Yes it does deathreaper it says that you have no rules arguments and highlights how unable your side is to answer a simple question.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why is this so difficult to understand? I'll try to explain using a simple example:

We have time points and marbles and rules when we can put marbles into a box:

Time point 0 normally nothing happen here
TP1 a states you may put upto half your marbles into the box
TP2 a game starts
TP3+ there are other ways of putting marbles into the box.

People are equating the rule at TP1 to you may not have more than half your marbles in the box at TP2. Under normal circumstances this has no impact. Then i introduce a new rule at TP0:

TP0 you may put any red marbles into the box.

I then notice all my marbles are red. I can therefore put them all into the box at TP0 without breaking the rule at TP1 because they never interact.

The rules here are the same but the box is reserves the marbles are units and red marbles are deathwing. Are you seeing your mistake yet?

There is no restriction on how many units start the game either in reserve or on the table. There only an allowance to place units in reserve when you are deploying your army. That allowance only occurs at that point it has no impact on how many units are in reserve at any other point in the game.

Sorry about typos im on my phone with a bad touch screen and next to no ability to edit.

Yeah let's simplify things using marbles and variables.

You seem to be mistaking people telling you that you're wrong with people not understanding your argument. We get it. You think that once you declare them to be doing a DWA, they are stuck there so it's no longer a choice, and thus can bypass the 50% rule. We all understand your argument. The problem is that you're wrong.

I'm gonna go outside and choose to murder somebody. But when the cops come to arrest me, I'll explain to them that once I made the decision to murder somebody, it was no longer a choice because I couldn't change my mind after my victim was dead, so the law doesn't apply to me. I'm sure that'll go over well.

Nivek did you even read the post? Do you know that murder is illegal at all times. For instance it is illegal to smoke in a shop that does not mean someone smoking outside can get done for it. It is against the rules to put more than half your units in a reserve when deploying your army. There is no restriction on how many units you can put in reserves at any other time or how many you have in reserve at any time.

Do not ignore when DWA happens.

Also do not ignore the Deployment section of the BRB where the first entry is Determine Warlord Traits.

It is illegal to murder people because there is a rule against it, yes. However, governments execute people all the time and soldiers around the world are paid to kill other people. Because they have been granted an explicit exception to the law.

This metaphor is far more fitting than putting marbles in a time-coded box.

You are NEVER allowed to break the 50% rule unless you are EXPLICITLY given permission.

Thank you deathreaper i am not ignoring with DWA happens you are ignoring when you are allowed to put units into reserve using the reserves special rule. You can't put units into reserve when your opponent is deploying because you have no permission to.

Nivek you need to read the reserves rule. Seriously read it read what it actually says and then come back and tell me where it says you can not ever have more than 50% of your units in reserve.

I have been confused by this aswell. Paragraph 2 of the deep strike special rule seams to be lead to they dont count. It states " when working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed via deep strike are ignored". As units making deathwing assault are selected before the deployment phase and must deep strike i would say they dont count.

Nivek, the 50% rule is also not written how you claim.

"When deploying your army, You may choose not to deploy up to half your units."

Are you deploying your army when using dwa or rolling warlord traits or rolling psychic powers? No. Dwa fails this first criteria. Dwa is in deployment, but the rules specifically state that dwa is one at a different time than when a player deploys their army.

When deploying your army, can a unit that already choose to dwa make a choice about deploying on the table? No, dwa fails he second criteria. Dwa is a separate choice than deep strike or normal Reserve. The choice to dwa happens before he other two and takes away further choices.

Does dwa even use the Reserve special rule like models using deep strike do? No. The rule reads that a model uses dwa to arrive by deep strike and there is no need to roll for reserve. You are not using deep strike, which the models can choose to do if hey don't dwa.

Tyrant, dwa happens in deployment but before you deploy your army. Also units using dwa arrive by deep strike, but they are not put in reserve to deep strike. With dwa, you need never reference the different reserve special rule at all.

I mean Nivek how can you say a rule in a permissive that give you permission at a specific to do something with a rule in an exclusive rules set that prevents you ever doing something is beyond me.

Fling - you conceded when you repeated the same debunked argument, and when you decided in a baffling move that a model that is explicitly in reserves isnt actually in reserves

Or are you trying to pretend that you didnt make that hilarious argument?

 FlingitNow wrote:
I mean Nivek how can you say a rule in a permissive that give you permission at a specific to do something with a rule in an exclusive rules set that prevents you ever doing something is beyond me.

Is this a sentence? I don't even know what this is supposed to say. Your continuing futile attempts at the English language are all the proof anyone needs that you aren't capable of grasping what a rule is telling you.

DevianID wrote:Nivek, the 50% rule is also not written how you claim.

It's not a "claim", it's a direct quote from the rulebook, copied verbatim with the page number cited. Do you own a copy of the rule book? Please go to page 124 and read the first two sentences of "Preparing reserves", then compare it to what I quoted.

Warlord Traits take place during deployment. When you declare DWA "immediately after rolling for Warlord traits", you have already begun deployment. That's why right above it it says "DEPLOYMENT" in giant block letters with a line underneath it. That's called formatting, and it is used with the written word to designate that what follows is all part of the designated topic. They put the words "immediately after rolling for Warlord traits" in the DWA rule so that you know you have to declare it to your opponent before either you or they begin to place models on the board, because if you waited any longer you would have an unfair advantage.

The really interesting thing here is if DWA takes place after warlord triats that means it happens before psychic power generation.

Right that sentence was supposed to say this:

I mean Nivek how can you say a rule in a permissive rules that gives you permission, at a specific time, to do something with a rule in an exclusive rules set that prevents you ever doing something is beyond me.

As explained my phone is really hampering me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fling - you conceded when you repeated the same debunked argument, and when you decided in a baffling move that a model that is explicitly in reserves isnt actually in reserves

Or are you trying to pretend that you didnt make that hilarious argument?

Are you going to admit you got it wrong or are you going to answer the questions?

DWA is not done when i am deploying my army so how can i be using the 50% allowance rules in the reserves special rule? So DWA is not using the reserves rule to put units in reserve just as gate of infinity is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

So again I'll ask if anyone thinking that the allowance to put 50% of my units i. Reserve magically creates an un mentioned restriction rule that somehow effects DWA please answer the below questions. If not I'll tke it as you conceding the point.

Can i put stuff in reserve at any point during deploy your forces as your interpretation makes me?

Do both playesr have their turns at the same time or do we do it one at time?

Therefore during your turn am I having my turn?

When you roll for steal the initiative am I having my turn?

By the same logic do we deploy our armies at the same time or do we do it one at a time?

Therefore when you are deploying your army am I deploying mine?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are rolling of to see who deploys their army first?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are declaring.g DWA?