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This is probably going to get overlooked because it's more of an RAI post in a rules section, but here we go.

Wasn't the difference in reserves rules between 5th and 6th primarily to address the trend commonly seen in tourneys where the guy who lost initiative put his entire army in reserve so his opponent had nothing to shoot at? Thereby giving the TFG the first turn and shortening the game by his opponents one lost turn (making it a 5 turn game for the starting player and a 6 turn game for TFG).

My thinking is that the benefit of DWA isn't that it ignores the reserve rules at all, but
1.) gives the DW player the tactical advantage of choosing to actually arrive on the first turn (which I believe you don't normally start arriving from reserves until turn 2) thereby ignoring casualties to chose unit should the DW player lose the initiate. And...
2.)Predetermining which DWA units in the army arrive on what turn (1 or 2) without having to deal with the randomness that the reserve roll can sometimes incur, messing up the player's battle plan.

IMO playing an army (whether it's my beloved DW or another) that always goes first and sometimes shortens the opponents number of turns (well at least shooting turns) is kind of cheese.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
(which I believe you don't normally start arriving from reserves until turn 2)

This is incorrect. Half of an armies Drop Pods arrive from Reserve on turn 1.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
(which I believe you don't normally start arriving from reserves until turn 2)

This is incorrect. Half of an armies Drop Pods arrive from Reserve on turn 1.

Via the Drop Pod Assault rule found in various codices correct? But don't regular units arriving off board without the benefit of a rule intrinsic to that specific unit arrive on turns 2+?

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
(which I believe you don't normally start arriving from reserves until turn 2)

This is incorrect. Half of an armies Drop Pods arrive from Reserve on turn 1.

Via the Drop Pod Assault rule found in various codices correct? But don't regular units arriving off board without the benefit of a rule intrinsic to that specific unit arrive on turns 2+?

Yes normally units arrive turn 2 or later.

However Drop pods must start the game in reserve to be able to Deep Strike, Even the pods that arrive turn 1 are still in reserve.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
(which I believe you don't normally start arriving from reserves until turn 2)

This is incorrect. Half of an armies Drop Pods arrive from Reserve on turn 1.

Via the Drop Pod Assault rule found in various codices correct? But don't regular units arriving off board without the benefit of a rule intrinsic to that specific unit arrive on turns 2+?

Yes, however it specifies in Drop Pod Assault that they are in reserves, and then provides a special rule that half turn up turn 1. Mordrak also turns up turn 1, despite being in reserves

Fling - care to explain where they are, if not in Reserves? If we can get you to admit you are wrong on that contention we may make some progress

Mightygodzilla yes i do agree the change in reserve was to reduce the null deployment. I believe however this was to stop the game not beginning u.til turn 2 as most armies that can bring in reserves turn 1 have a mechanism to go all reserve i.e. Drop pods and daemons


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At least we can all finally agree on the RaW now. But yes rai could go either way.

By "all" you mean "mainly you"?

The RAW is clear; the 50% rule applies, as nothing about DWA avoids it.

Yes the 50% rule applies and has nothing to do with how many units i can DWA with.

Nos you already conceded when you refused to answer my simple questions. So either answer the questions or stop trolling.

DevianID wrote:

Tyrant, dwa happens in deployment but before you deploy your army. Also units using dwa arrive by deep strike, but they are not put in reserve to deep strike. With dwa, you need never reference the different reserve special rule at all.

I never referenced any so called different reserve special rule at all. I referenced the Deep strike special rule which is how terminators arriving via DWA arrive. There is states units that must arrive via deep strike do not count when working out how many units can go in reserve. As the DA codex DWA entry fails to mention weather or not units arriving this way are placed in reserve, and as it not decided at the same time as normal reserves, I would take it as they must arrive via deep strike therefore do not count in the half rounding up quota.


On another note there are many calling how many units can be held in reserve the 50% rule when in fact its the half rounding up. No where does it ever use the term 50%. Sounds minor but half rounding up is actually a more accurate description us more times than not armies will be odd numbered. If people acctually quoted the rule book rather than put down how they remember it was written, half these threads would not be so long. My 2 cents anyway.

Tyr4nt99 when talking about the 50% rule and how it should be accurately stated you yourself state the common misconception on the rule. It is not a rule on how many units can be held in reserve or how many can be in reserve or how many can start in reserve. It is a rule about how many can be PUT into reserve WHEN DEPLOYING YOUR ARMY. That is all it governs.

Where in the Deathwing Assault rule does it say any of the units are placed in reserve?

All it says is that there is no need to roll for reserves, which can be interpreted 2 ways:

1 - They are not reserves and this statements clarifies this

2- They are "reserves" but you do not have to roll.

As written however, it suggests that they are not reserves because no where in the rule does it say anything like "units with this rule may be placed in reserves during deployment and declare they are making a deathwing assault, etc"

IF the rule was worded in such a way, yes I would agree the 50% rule applies. However, since the declaration of Deathwing Assault precedes any sort of deployment and "placing units in reserve" they clearly do not count toward the 50% rule and act exactly like Demons, except they get to choose turn 1 or 2 (albeit prior to your opponent deploying as well, keep that in mind as well)

Forcing you to deploy 50% of your terminators in a full DW army is against the way the rule was designed, IMO.

It would be like saying a Drop-Pod army had to deploy half the marines on the table with half the the pods dropping empty. Since the marines have the OPTION of deploying on the battlefield and dropping an empty pod, that line of logic lends itself to forcing half of the marines being forced to deploy and dropping empty pods.

It's all about when the declaration is made, which is prior to deployment. Therefore, all models in the army that have chosen to deploy/enter the battle via DWA MUST deep strike, in which case they do not apply to the 50% rule.

If you DWA with every model in the army, you no longer physically have any models to deploy because they can NOT deploy normally, just like Demons/Full Drop-Pod marines.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Tyr4nt99 when talking about the 50% rule and how it should be accurately stated you yourself state the common misconception on the rule. It is not a rule on how many units can be held in reserve or how many can be in reserve or how many can start in reserve. It is a rule about how many can be PUT into reserve WHEN DEPLOYING YOUR ARMY. That is all it governs.

Again you are continuing to perpetuate false infromation. It is not the 50% rule. It is a choice to not deploy HALF (ROUNDING UP) units keeping them as reserves. And where did I incorrectly state a misconception of this rule. I suggest next time you wish to point out a mistake made in a post you may wish to place a quote. But before that you may wish to read the post, then re read the post, then just to make sure reread the post again to ensure you fully understand what was written. If you are also going to correct someone make sure you dont add words yourself that are not within the rule itself. Happy to stand corrected on anything I have miswritten however I have direct quoted the rulebook to avoid making things up. This generally avoids confusion... generally.

Ztryder wrote:
Where in the Deathwing Assault rule does it say any of the units are placed in reserve?

When it tells you that they Deep Strike. All units Deep Striking are held in Reserve to do so.

Ztryder wrote:
Since the marines have the OPTION of deploying on the battlefield and dropping an empty pod, that line of logic lends itself to forcing half of the marines being forced to deploy and dropping empty pods.

You are exactly correct that this is how it would work. Except that both the main rulebook (Deep Strike rules) and the main rulebook FAQ come out and explicitly tell us to ALSO ignore any models inside a Drop Pod or Flyer transport. Thus there is a SPECIFIC and EXPLICIT exception for these units, unlike units making a DWA.

Ztryder wrote:
It's all about when the declaration is made, which is prior to deployment.

Incorrect. It's made DURING deployment, right after Warlord traits. If you look at page 121 of your rulebook, you'll see that Warlord traits are done at the beginning of Deployment, and so the decision to DWA, which is done right after Warlord traits, is also made during Deployment.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes the 50% rule applies and has nothing to do with how many units i can DWA with.

Nos you already conceded when you refused to answer my simple questions. So either answer the questions or stop trolling.

I didnt answer your trolling, as feeding you seemed silly. You decided that these models werent in reserve - or have you quietly dropped that?

The 50% rule is in force during Deployment of your Forces, which is also deploying your army. You continually ignore that.

Ok if they are not in reserves BUt arriving by deep striking then where are they in limbo?

They are put in reserves. At this point you have a choice to roll for them on turn 2 or beyond, or declare to DWA. and arrive turn1 or 2 via deep strike your choice.

There is absolutely no rule that allows you too place them in a limbo stasis too arrive when you like. There is none. Not in the BRB or the new codex thats been released.

Fling your wrong and quite frankly this does not need to be FAQ'd. Its simple you put in reserves and choose how they arrive.

You have 3 choices.

walk on
deep strike after turn one if you roll a 3
or deep strike on turn 1 or 2 via dwa.

Thats it Dark angels have no special rules to the contrary

Just answer where they go if not in reserves? Limbo?

LOCK THIS THREAD

On another note there are many calling how many units can be held in reserve...

That's the mistake Tyr4nt99 there is no rule governing how many units can be held in reserve. We call it 50% because it is quicker to type. However what causes confusion is statements like yours and people calling it a restriction on how many unit can be/start in reserve WHEN it is in fact simply an allowance to place units in reserve at a specific point before the game.

Nos I didn't say the units were not in reserve i said they were no being put in reserve using the reserves special rule. so the 50% rule a rules that allows me to put units in reserve is active throughout deployment? That means i can place units in reserve through out deployment. What you are trying to claim means i can put units in reserve WHEN rolling for warlord traits up until as my opponent finishes deploying his army i can then stick half my army in reserve?

Why won't you answer even that question? Why can't anyone answer the questions. Why can't anyone explain how DWA with your entire army breaks the 50% rule.

Ztryder wrote:


All it says is that there is no need to roll for reserves, which can be interpreted 2 ways:

1 - They are not reserves and this statements clarifies this

2- They are "reserves" but you do not have to roll.

I think this is the heart of the issue. RAW is very much open to interpretation. We need to wait for an FAQ. In the meantime we're just guessing what GW meant; and of course their eventual FAQ ruling isn't necessarily even going to be based on what they meant (if they even thought about what they meant...).

They are put in reserves. At this point you have a choice to roll for them on turn 2 or beyond, or declare to DWA. and arrive turn1 or 2 via deep strike your choice.

There is absolutely no rule that allows you too place them in a limbo stasis too arrive when you like

Lungpickle you made a lot of mistakes here. Even Nos will agree with this.

First, you dont get the choice of deploy, walk on, deep strike or DWA at the same time. DWA always comes first, and using DWA means you have no choice to later deploy, walk on or deep strike when it is normally time to decide those things.

Second, DWA DOES let you arrive when you like, determined in deployment but far before when you deploy your army or use the Reserves mission special rule on other units to choose not to deploy them.

Edit:

When it tells you that they Deep Strike. All units Deep Striking are held in Reserve to do so.

Mannahnin, they dont deep strike, they Death Wing Assault. Units making a Deathwing Assault arrive via Deepstrike. The first and only time Deep strike is mentioned is when a unit completes its DWA for model placement. They can ALSO make a Deep Strike, but follow different rules for doing so. If a model with DWA did not have the deep strike USR, they could still use DWA. According to you, they must also have deep strike to DWA, which is not what the DWA rules say.

Okay quick question, if the entire section on deployment is 'deploying your forces' and is therefor subject to the 50% rule, does that mean that the DA player will always receive first turn?

The player who first deploys his forces first, goes first. DWA is declared immediately after warlord traits before rolling to see who deploys first, and DA has deployed first by your interpretation of that section.

Cheers

Andrew

DevianID wrote:
Edit: Mannahnin, they dont deep strike, they Death Wing Assault. Units making a Deathwing Assault arrive via Deepstrike. The first and only time Deep strike is mentioned is when a unit completes its DWA for model placement. They can ALSO make a Deep Strike, but follow different rules for doing so. If a model with DWA did not have the deep strike USR, they could still use DWA. According to you, they must also have deep strike to DWA, which is not what the DWA rules say.

This is incorrect, as proven units making a DWA do in fact Deep Strike. "Units making a Deathwing Assault arrive via Deepstrike"

arrive via Deep strike = Deep strike.

DWA = Deep Strike without rolling for Reserves, instead just arriving on your designated turn.

DWA changes some VERY SPECIFIC rules for RESERVES. It still uses reserves, it still follows all the unchanged rules for reserves.

Yes once you CHOOSE to DWA they must go into reserves but you CHOSE to put them in to reserves when you CHOSE to DWA therefore it is a CHOICE and they CAN not MUST start on the table.

 jegsar wrote:
DWA changes some VERY SPECIFIC rules for RESERVES. It still uses reserves, it still follows all the unchanged rules for reserves.

Yes once you CHOOSE to DWA they must go into reserves but you CHOSE to put them in to reserves when you CHOSE to DWA therefore it is a CHOICE and they CAN not MUST start on the table.

I still disagree with that reasoning.

Choosing to play DWA is completely separate from any choice regarding Reserves. It's choosing to play a special rule which happens to influence Reserves and place some units there, but the choice itself is not related to Reserves. It is a choice on a special rule. Whether or not that then influences the 50% rule is where the true debate lies I personally think. After re-reading all the rules I am inclined now to think that the 50% does apply (otherwise any unit with DS never counts towards 50% and you could field any army comprised of DS models entirely off the table) however I don't agree that the rule is not ambiguous. It needs an FAQ.

Fling's interpretation is not correct at all.

Ztryder wrote:Forcing you to deploy 50% of your terminators in a full DW army is against the way the rule was designed, IMO.

It would be like saying a Drop-Pod army had to deploy half the marines on the table with half the the pods dropping empty. Since the marines have the OPTION of deploying on the battlefield and dropping an empty pod, that line of logic lends itself to forcing half of the marines being forced to deploy and dropping empty pods.

Drop Pod assault only allows you to bring in half on your first turn, and the rest get stuck in reserves to be rolled for as normal. The advantage of being able to place half your stuff where you want it first turn is tempered by the disadvantage of not knowing when you'll get to use the rest of your army. It's its own unique way of keeping the spirit of the 50% rule alive. Deathwing Assault, however, applies to every single unit that you declare to be using it. If you treat DWA as ignoring the 50% rule, you can deploy an ENTIRE army of Deathwing exactly where you want it. No footslogging, no waiting for reserves, no random chance, no need to maneuver to your opponent. Having half an army not have to worry about that is already very strong. Allowing your ENTIRE army to do that would be a completely broken mechanic, which is really all the evidence anyone should need to see that's not how it works.

FlingitNow wrote:I mean Nivek how can you say a rule in a permissive rules that gives you permission, at a specific time, to do something with a rule in an exclusive rules set that prevents you ever doing something is beyond me.

I've read this about 30 times now, and I still have no idea what it's supposed to say. It starts as a question and then ends as a declarative statement.

FlingitNow wrote:Can i put stuff in reserve at any point during deploy your forces as your interpretation makes me?

You are allowed to place units in reserve from the time you start placing models during deployment until you tell your opponent you are finished placing your forces. The only exceptions to this are explicitly stated in special rules.

Do both playesr have their turns at the same time or do we do it one at time?

Player turns are not simultaneous.

Therefore during your turn am I having my turn?

No.

When you roll for steal the initiative am I having my turn?

No, because nobody has had a 'player turn' yet.

By the same logic do we deploy our armies at the same time or do we do it one at a time?

We deploy our armies at the same time because nobody has had a 'player turn' yet, nor has the player to get the first 'player turn' been determined yet. We simply place models on the board at different times.

Therefore when you are deploying your army am I deploying mine?

Yes. Nobody has had a 'player turn' yet, we're setting up the game.

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are rolling of to see who deploys their army first?

Yes, because it's part of the 'Deployment' section.

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are declaring.g DWA?

Yes, because it's part of the 'Deployment' section.

Declaration of a DWA is done before rolling off to see who places models first because knowing who places first would greatly influence your decision on whether or not you want to use Deathwing Assault. If I knew I was going 2nd, I would DWA everything every game. It would cost my opponent the ability to do any damage to me for their first turn, and I get to choose to bring in everything I have exactly where I want it in relation to his forces to do the maximum amount of damage. That would be the kind of cheese that would make 5th ed Grey Knights blush. That is the kind of reality people wanting to ignore the 50% rule are arguing for, keep that in mind.

Nivek5150 wrote:
Yes, because it's part of the 'Deployment' section.

Declaration of a DWA is done before rolling off to see who places models first because knowing who places first would greatly influence your decision on whether or not you want to use Deathwing Assault. If I knew I was going 2nd, I would DWA everything every game. It would cost my opponent the ability to do any damage to me for their first turn, and I get to choose to bring in everything I have exactly where I want it in relation to his forces to do the maximum amount of damage. That would be the kind of cheese that would make 5th ed Grey Knights blush. That is the kind of reality people wanting to ignore the 50% rule are arguing for, keep that in mind.

But DWA can't be deployment, because if it was, by declaring DWA you have deployed first and as such would always have first turn.

Cheers

Andrew

DWA is done before the roll off, ok... that doesn't change any reserve rules other then the time which you CHOOSE what happens to them.

Oh and you might kinda place your armies at the same time but you DO NOT place your infiltrators at the same time otherwise where one is placed wouldn't effect where the other could be placed.

Meaning... no it's not at the same time one goes then the other goes back and forth.

 AndrewC wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:
Yes, because it's part of the 'Deployment' section.

Declaration of a DWA is done before rolling off to see who places models first because knowing who places first would greatly influence your decision on whether or not you want to use Deathwing Assault. If I knew I was going 2nd, I would DWA everything every game. It would cost my opponent the ability to do any damage to me for their first turn, and I get to choose to bring in everything I have exactly where I want it in relation to his forces to do the maximum amount of damage. That would be the kind of cheese that would make 5th ed Grey Knights blush. That is the kind of reality people wanting to ignore the 50% rule are arguing for, keep that in mind.

But DWA can't be deployment, because if it was, by declaring DWA you have deployed first and as such would always have first turn.

The same logic would say that whoever picked up the dice to roll on the Warlord table has now gone first. In either case, it doesn't matter because after Warlord traits & DWA the rulebook tells you to roll the dice to see who places models first so you are forced to do so. Placing DWA between Warlord traits & rolling to see who places first does not create a conflict with the BRB.

jegsar wrote:DWA is done before the roll off, ok... that doesn't change any reserve rules other then the time which you CHOOSE what happens to them.

I agree with you. I wasn't commenting on the Reserves rule per se, I was saying that playing it the way the all-in crowd wants to would be game-breaking.

Oh and you might kinda place your armies at the same time but you DO NOT place your infiltrators at the same time otherwise where one is placed wouldn't effect where the other could be placed.

Correct. I (very purposefully) did not say you place models at the same time (you clearly do not), I said you are both "deploying armies" at the same time, because the game hasn't started and nobody has had a "player turn" yet.

 Mannahnin wrote:
DWA = Deep Strike without rolling for Reserves or putting them in reserve when deploying your army, instead just arriving on your designated turn.

fixed that for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nivek if you are both deploying your armies at the same time (even the rules tell you not to) that means the allowance to put 50% of my army in reserves applies through out the deployment phase correct?

Is that what you are saying that the 50% rule can be used at any point during deployment from warlord trait to the 2nd player finishing deploying his army?

As Andrew says, you guys are trying so hard to apply the reserves special rule to the dwa special rule that you have claimed dwa counts as deploying your army so as to force reserve limits to apply.

If this is the case, you are also arguing that dwa grants the dwa player the first turn by virtue of deploying their army first, as Andrew pointed out. Now are you guys still claiming raw the 50% reserves apply to dwa when you also always get first turn as well by using dwa via the same raw logic?

Nivek5150 wrote:
The same logic would say that whoever picked up the dice to roll on the Warlord table has now gone first. In either case, it doesn't matter because after Warlord traits & DWA the rulebook tells you to roll the dice to see who places models first so you are forced to do so. Placing DWA between Warlord traits & rolling to see who places first does not create a conflict with the BRB.

No it doesnt, Warlard traits states 'before either player deploys', The next section specifically states to roll the dice to decide who deploys first. DWA comes somewhere inbetween. The rule for going first doesnt ask who picked up the dice, but who deployed their army first. And since, according to you, DWA is deploying an army....

Cheers

Andrew