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DevianID wrote:
If this is the case, you are also arguing that dwa grants the dwa player the first turn by virtue of deploying their army first, as Andrew pointed out. Now are you guys still claiming raw the 50% reserves apply to dwa when you also always get first turn as well by using dwa via the same raw logic?

That's not true.
When does DWA get declared?
What happens after that?

Unfortunately it is,

You are quite right, the 'turn' order is;

Warlord traits,
DWA,
Roll to deploy armies.

However the rule for who gets first turn doesn't ask for who won the roll off, simply the person who deployed his army first has first turn. And according to you DWA is deploying your army. Ergo regardless of who won the die roll, the DA player goes first.

Cheers

Andrew

DevianID wrote:
As Andrew says, you guys are trying so hard to apply the reserves special rule to the dwa special rule that you have claimed dwa counts as deploying your army so as to force reserve limits to apply.

If this is the case, you are also arguing that dwa grants the dwa player the first turn by virtue of deploying their army first, as Andrew pointed out. Now are you guys still claiming raw the 50% reserves apply to dwa when you also always get first turn as well by using dwa via the same raw logic?

Actually their argument is even worse than that. They are trying to split the 50% rule into 2 rules one which lets you put units into reserve and another that caps it at half. But it is one rule. If that rule applies through deployment the i can deploy first let you deploy then yank half my army of the board to put into reserve...
Or indeed whilst rolling warlord traits i could stick half my units in reserve. Which just shows how wrong their interpretation is.

I've tried explaining this many times to them but they ignore it. They insist on this invented mythical rule that says only half your units can ever be in reserve.

 FlingitNow wrote:

DevianID wrote:
As Andrew says, you guys are trying so hard to apply the reserves special rule to the dwa special rule that you have claimed dwa counts as deploying your army so as to force reserve limits to apply.

If this is the case, you are also arguing that dwa grants the dwa player the first turn by virtue of deploying their army first, as Andrew pointed out. Now are you guys still claiming raw the 50% reserves apply to dwa when you also always get first turn as well by using dwa via the same raw logic?

Actually their argument is even worse than that. They are trying to split the 50% rule into 2 rules one which lets you put units into reserve and another that caps it at half. But it is one rule. If that rule applies through deployment the i can deploy first let you deploy then yank half my army of the board to put into reserve...
Or indeed whilst rolling warlord traits i could stick half my units in reserve. Which just shows how wrong their interpretation is.

I've tried explaining this many times to them but they ignore it. They insist on this invented mythical rule that says only half your units can ever be in reserve.

Okay, you're either very confused about what you've read in your Rulebook or you're straight up lying to yourself. I'm reasonably certain I'm not supposed to quote verbatim from the book or be mean to people on here (and I really don't like doing that, any mods reading, please take note) but man, you just keep insisting on something that's complete gak.

Page 124 - Heading: Reserves, 1st Paragraph 'Preparing Reserves'

'When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.'

Boom. A RULE that states up to half your units may be kept in reserve. I think what's mythical here is your reading comprehension.

Paint to redemption have you even read what you've posted? Your rule says this:

When deploying their armies - cool this is something that applies when we're deploying.g our armies:

Players can choose not to deploy up to half their units - cool this is is permission to do something instead of deploying and we can do that thing with unto half our units.

Keeping them as Reserves to arrive later - this explains what we do with those units instead of deploying them.

The rest of the rules just define exactly what is meant by half the units. Note NOTHING stating any restriction on how many units can be in reserve can start in reserve Or can be held in reserve. ONLY Half something that tells you how many units can be PUT in reserve at the specific time of when we are deploying them.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Paint to redemption have you even read what you've posted? Your rule says this:

When deploying their armies - cool this is something that applies when we're deploying.g our armies:

Players can choose not to deploy up to half their units - cool this is is permission to do something instead of deploying and we can do that thing with unto half our units.

Keeping them as Reserves to arrive later - this explains what we do with those units instead of deploying them.

The rest of the rules just define exactly what is meant by half the units. Note NOTHING stating any restriction on how many units can be in reserve can start in reserve Or can be held in reserve. ONLY Half something that tells you how many units can be PUT in reserve at the specific time of when we are deploying them.

Okay, so you have permission to put half of your units into reserve. What's your point? You still only have permission to put 50% of your unit into reserve, no more than that.

If you want to argue RAW then you have to take it both ways. Yes, there's nothing explicitly stating exactly how many units can theoretically be in the 'reserve', but there's also nothing saying that you can have more than 50% of your units in reserve either so your argument trips up on your own logic. Unless you can find something specific that gives you permission to put more than 50% of your army into reserve then you have no argument. DWA does not do that. It only gives you permission to bring in your nominated units via DS on the turn you nominate, without a roll for reinforcements.

I agree that DWA is a bit ambiguous and needs to be FAQ'd but I don't agree (anymore) that it gives you permission to put your entire army into reserve. All it does is give you permission to Deep Strike on the turn of your choosing, without having to roll.

Example of why DWA does not let you put your entire army into reserve using the DS arguement:

Player A calls DWA after Warlord traits are rolled. Nominates his entire army who all must be kept in reserves now because DWA forces them to Deep Strike (and DS units must be kept in reserve).

Player B does not call on any codex rules, but simply nominates his entire army to Deep Strike also, because all of his units have the Deep Strike special rule (and DS units must be kept in reserve).

Now, both Player A and Player B have their entire armies off the table for the same reason (DS forces units into reserve, therefore they don't count towards 50%). This is obviously insane. Where are the units? Who's going to fight? Do you both lose at the end of turn 1? Any game played this way is an automatic draw by virtue of there being no units on the damn field!

However, in reality, you may only nominate 50% of your force to DS without using the DWA rule. Since there is nothing permissive in the DWA rule to allow you to nominate more than 50% of your units to DS (and negate the 50% rule in the process) then you can't do it. Impossible. Just the same as it is impossible to nominate more than 50% of your regular DS forces.

Try and DS your entire army without using DWA against any player and they'll laugh at you. DWA does not confer anything special other than the ability for the models that are Deep Striking to arrive on the nominated turn without a reserve roll. If you claim DWA gives nominated models exemption from the 50% rule you claim that any model with DS is ALSO exempt from the 50% rule by default. Since we know that is patently wrong, we know that DWA can therefore not make units exempt from the 50% rule.

/thread.

Read the entire rule Paint. The allowance governs and only governs how many units can be PUT into reserve when you are deploying your army. If you have another rule that lets you put units in reserve at another time then this rule has no bearing on that. If you are trying to make this rule apply through deployment then the rule applies through out deployment and i can stick units in reserve at anytime during deployment. Which means whichever player shouts Im putting a unit into reserve first after placement of objectives gets to go first. This is what those trying to apply the 50% rule to DWA are making happen.

Do you understand that rule yet? If that rule was the only way to

Show me where DWA allows you to put more than 50% of your units into reserve.

Otherwise...

/thread.

Edit: And no, nominating to use DWA does not mean you 'get to go first because you deployed first' because the Rulebook SPECIFICALLY states that you roll off to see who deploys their army first. Calling DWA has no bearing on the roll off. The following page then SPECIFICALLY states that the player who deployed their army first (via the roll off) goes first. Find a better argument.

Also in your example player B can not declare he is putting ANY units into reserve before he starts deploying his army because he has no permission to do so. If there was a rule allowing him to declare DS at the point you are saying then yes he could do that with all his units. DWA specifically gives you permission to declare it after warlord traits before either player start deploying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The DWA rule states you may declare any units with the DWA are making a DWA after warlord traits. So me a rule that means any is limited to 50%.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Also in your example player B can not declare he is putting ANY units into reserve before he starts deploying his army because he has no permission to do so. If there was a rule allowing him to declare DS at the point you are saying then yes he could do that with all his units. DWA specifically gives you permission to declare it after warlord traits before either player start deploying.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The DWA rule states you may declare any units with the DWA are making a DWA after warlord traits. So me a rule that means any is limited to 50%.

It doesn't matter. You're saying DWA negates 50% because DS units MUST be in reserve.

If I declare all my units to be Deep Striking when I am deploying my army (at the time one would normally declare DS) then that is EXACTLY the same thing. They all MUST be in reserve because I have declared them to be Deep Striking. That is not how it works and DWA does not give any permissions to break that. All it does do, is give you permission to bring in the units that you nominate to DS on the turn you want without rolls. That is all. You may still only nominate units according to the deployment rules which state that only units the must be placed into reserve (or must arrive by DS) do not count. Since none of the units we're talking about must arrive by DS (or must be placed into reserve) because you don't have to nominate them or play DWA, you must obey the deployment rules.

Edit: Also, please explain how the timing of when you declare DWA influences whether or not you can nominate more than half your units to be placed into reserves. Nothing in the rules says anything about that.

It states nothing about who won the roll off. Please actually read my posts and the rules. If you can apply the 50% rule through out deployment then you can start deploying your army at anytime during deployment as that is what the 50% rule says.

So either i can reserve my units through out deployment or only when I'm deploying my army. The 50% rule only applies when the 50% rule is applied. So which is it? Through out deployment or only when deploying your army?

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
Show me where DWA allows you to put more than 50% of your units into reserve.

Otherwise...

Just an FYI:
I would just like to point out that the Reserves rules allow for more than 50% of an Army to be in reserve.
"up to half of their units (rounding up)"
Example: Army with 5 units (5/2 is 2.5 rounding up = 3 in reserve) that's 60%. Assume for a moment that 2 units are Flyers, now that 66% in reserve.

The "50% Rule" is a myth, it doesn't exist and never has.
There is only the Reserves rule and it certainly allows for more than 50% of an Army to start the game in reserves. Add in those units that can be "ignored" and the percentage be well above 50%.

carry on...

So will you answer the question of when the 50% rule applies?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
DWA = Deep Strike without rolling for Reserves or putting them in reserve when deploying your army, instead just arriving on your designated turn.

fixed that for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nivek if you are both deploying your armies at the same time (even the rules tell you not to) that means the allowance to put 50% of my army in reserves applies through out the deployment phase correct?

Is that what you are saying that the 50% rule can be used at any point during deployment from warlord trait to the 2nd player finishing deploying his army?

So if they are not on the table, and they are not in Reserves, then they cannot come into the game as you do not have permission to bring them in from some magical place called DWA.

Actually reaper i do the DWA rule explains when and how you bring units on that are in DWA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone from the 50% crowd willing to answer when the 50% rule applies and therefore when i can put units into reserve?

40k-noob wrote:

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
Show me where DWA allows you to put more than 50% of your units into reserve.

Otherwise...

Just an FYI:
I would just like to point out that the Reserves rules allow for more than 50% of an Army to be in reserve.
"up to half of their units (rounding up)"
Example: Army with 5 units (5/2 is 2.5 rounding up = 3 in reserve) that's 60%. Assume for a moment that 2 units are Flyers, now that 66% in reserve.

The "50% Rule" is a myth, it doesn't exist and never has.
There is only the Reserves rule and it certainly allows for more than 50% of an Army to start the game in reserves. Add in those units that can be "ignored" and the percentage be well above 50%.

carry on...

50% is an easy way of saying half which is what it says in the rulebook. Flyers are always reserved. Arguing semantics doesn't help your actual argument.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So will you answer the question of when the 50% rule applies?

The 50% rule always applies unless you have a specific rule which overrides it. 'Timing' does not come into it, as much as you'd like it to.

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
Show me where DWA allows you to put more than 50% of your units into reserve.

Otherwise...

Just an FYI:
I would just like to point out that the Reserves rules allow for more than 50% of an Army to be in reserve.
"up to half of their units (rounding up)"
Example: Army with 5 units (5/2 is 2.5 rounding up = 3 in reserve) that's 60%. Assume for a moment that 2 units are Flyers, now that 66% in reserve.

The "50% Rule" is a myth, it doesn't exist and never has.
There is only the Reserves rule and it certainly allows for more than 50% of an Army to start the game in reserves. Add in those units that can be "ignored" and the percentage be well above 50%.

carry on...

50% is an easy way of saying half which is what it says in the rulebook. Flyers are always reserved. Arguing semantics doesn't help your actual argument.

You are arguing a position that doesn't exist and thus indefensible.
I was trying to help you adjust your position so you don't fall into that trap.

trying to make it "easy" by using the "50% rule" is putting your position on a weak foundation.

But oh well so much for trying to help

Question for the pro-timing people.

If both players show up with warlords that have set traits (no roll), then DWA can never occur since the trigger is the roll for warlord traits?

The same goes for flyers which cannot evade/jink attacks which do not roll to hit (vector strikes) since the trigger for evading is the roll to hit.

Seems to me this whole debate is RAI. RAW, every unit that is exempt from the 50% reserve rule has specific verbage. DWA has no mention of units not counting towards the reserved alottment. So arguing the timing of a choice (since they do have a choice) is arguing the intent of that choice to infuence the rest of the game. I see the timing (like dozens of others have pointed out) that the timing of the choice is to avoid waiting to see what/how your opponent deploys before declaring the DWA, since the benefit at that point in time would be off-balancing the game.

40k-noob wrote:



You are arguing a position that doesn't exist and thus indefensible.
I was trying to help you adjust your position so you don't fall into that trap.

trying to make it "easy" by using the "50% rule" is putting your position on a weak foundation.

But oh well so much for trying to help

The position exists if you read your rule book. It's clearly stated that you may put half of your force (rounded up) into reserve. Half is 50%. What you are doing is arguing semantics by saying, "Oh but if you round it up or have flyers it's not really 50%". So what??

Fine we can call it the 1/2 rule from now on. Or the 2/4ths rule or the 5/10ths rule... We can call it whatever you like but the rule still states that you can put half of your force in reserve and half is the exact same thing as 50%. It makes no difference anyway because the argument that DWA affected DS units ignore that rule is bunk. If DWA affected units ignore it then all units with the DS rule ignore it.

Edit: Anyway it's 2:30am here and I have spent way too long on Dakka today! I'm off to bed but I'm sure I'll be back to argue with you all some more tomorrow.

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
It makes no difference anyway because the argument that DWA affected DS units ignore that rule is bunk. If DWA affected units ignore it then all units with the DS rule ignore it.

This whole thread, all 14 pages of it, really boils down to that.

There are two sides.

1 - DWA units MUST DS (because of timing, i.e. happens before "deploying your army") and are "ignored" as the Reserves rules say (Pro side)
2 - DWA units are still to be considered when determining reserves as the Reserves rules are always in play (applied through out "Deployment"). (Con side)

Are DWA units to be ignored or not.

So far neither side can convince the other.

Can we close this thread now? It has been intersting reading through the progression of view points but nothing/noone seems to budge.

Paint answer the question. When can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
Edit: And no, nominating to use DWA does not mean you 'get to go first because you deployed first' because the Rulebook SPECIFICALLY states that you roll off to see who deploys their army first. Calling DWA has no bearing on the roll off. The following page then SPECIFICALLY states that the player who deployed their army first (via the roll off) goes first. Find a better argument.

Sorry but thats wrong, the rule book allows you to roll of to allow the winning player to decide whether he deploys first or second. However the DA player has already deployed part of his forces via DWA. First turn (P122) says nothing about how a person deployed first, only that they player who deployed his forces first has first turn.

DWA does not mention deployment, it's a 'go to jail, if you pass go you do not collect $200'. DS is a deploy forces to reserve and then declare DS. Reserves is a deploy forces step.

So we're left with the question of what is DWA? Is it deployment, in which case the 50% limitation is in force, but then he gets to go first, or it's not a deployment, in which case it is very questionable for the 50% limitation to be in effect.

Which is it?

Andrew there is no 50% limitation it is an allowance that has nothig to do with units that are put in reserve at other times.

Unsurpringly the 50% restriction crowd are still unable to state when you are allowed to use that rule to put units into reserve.

But thats the point I'm trying to make Fling. I'm taking their argument at face value and pursuing it throught the entire 'section' Reserves is a general rule specific to 'deployment'. The argument is that DWA is deployment and thence subject to 50% reserves. However such an argument then has to take account of the fact, that as 'deployment' DWA is thereby guaranteed first turn. If they cannot accept that fact then the argument presented is simply 'I dont think it works that way and I'm making up reasons to suit'

If they/you want to make an argument about RAW then accept all the RAW.

If DWA isn't deployment then trying to allocate a deployment rule to a specific codex rule is like trying to allocate CCW rules to a shooting attack.

Cheers

Andrew

DWA occurs in the deployment section of the rules.

There is no way to circumvent this fact.

 DeathReaper wrote:
DWA occurs in the deployment section of the rules.

There is no way to circumvent this fact.

....aaaand water is wet.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Paint answer the question. When can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

Normally, when deploying the rest of your forces.
DWA allows you to do that prior to anyone deploying forces.

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Paint answer the question. When can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

Normally, when deploying the rest of your forces.
DWA allows you to do that prior to anyone deploying forces.

so the 50% rule can't be used other than when you are deploying the rest of your force? Because the rule allowing you to put units in reserve is the 50% rule.

Therefore it can not apply to DWA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
DWA occurs in the deployment section of the rules.

There is no way to circumvent this fact.

No one is trying to. Again i ask you when can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Paint answer the question. When can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

Normally, when deploying the rest of your forces.
DWA allows you to do that prior to anyone deploying forces.

so the 50% rule can't be used other than when you are deploying the rest of your force?

Normally thats true.

Because the rule allowing you to put units in reserve is the 50% rule.

Therefore it can not apply to DWA.

Normally you may not declare Reserves prior to when you deploy forces. DWA requires you to declare Reserves prior to deploying forces. This is a conflict, codex wins - allowing you to declare Reserves before deploying forces.

There is no conflict when it comes to the "no more than half rounding up" units in reserve though.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
DWA occurs in the deployment section of the rules.

There is no way to circumvent this fact.

No one is trying to. Again i ask you when can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

What rigeld2 said covers this:


"Normally you may not declare Reserves prior to when you deploy forces. DWA requires you to declare Reserves prior to deploying forces. This is a conflict, codex wins - allowing you to declare Reserves before deploying forces.

There is no conflict when it comes to the "no more than half rounding up" units in reserve though."