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You say as if the 50% rule is 2 rules one letting you put units in reserve the other limiting it to 50% during deployment. This is not the case. The 50% rule is the rule that dictates how you put units into reserve when deploying yourarmy.

So either
a) i am not deploying my army when i choose to DWA and therefore the 50% rule has no effect
or
b)i am and therefore i can put units into reserve at this point normally.

Which is it? You can't simply apply a few words from the rule at that point either the entire rule is in effect or it isn't. Immediately after warlord traits is the 50% rule active? Because you've just said it isn't...

And using DWA is done during deployment, so you must adhere to the 50% rule.

Normally it's not.
DWA allows you to override the conflicting rule - that Reserves is done while deploying forces.

If you're attempting to ignore the Reserves rule (which is what you do by not applying the half round up) you can't Deep Strike...

Rigeld I'm not ignoring the reserves rule. I'm ignoring the allowance to put units in reserve whilst deploying my army because i have an allowance to do it at another time. Unless you feel these 2 rules occur at the same time?

So which of the two option.s above is true?

Return to find yet another logical fallacy from Fling

False dichotomy. Try to avoid it.

rigeld2 wrote:
Normally it's not.
DWA allows you to override the conflicting rule - that Reserves is done while deploying forces.

If you're attempting to ignore the Reserves rule (which is what you do by not applying the half round up) you can't Deep Strike...

Whoa - Ho - Ho!! Lets back on up a little bit....

So now DWA overrides the Reserves rule?!?!

No, just part of the reserves rule. Just like Rigeld said

Try rereading it to see just where you went wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, just part of the reserves rule. Just like Rigeld said

Try rereading it to see just where you went wrong.

Riiight.


But which part is being over ruled?

You see, DWA is one rule and Reserves is composed of two rules: Preparing Reserves and Arriving from Reserves.

Which part does DWA override?

Edit: oops forgot about Ongoing Reserves, so actually it is 3 rules.

What have I said that is incorrect Nos?

The 50% simply allows me to put half my army in reserve that is all it does. So if it is active when i am declaring DWA it is active immediately after warlord traits and therefore I can put units in reserve at this time.

False Dichotomy. You have decided that there are only two choices.

Just another of your fallacies.

40k noob - so there arent more than 3 rules there? Have you looked hard enough, because its been pointed out to you?

So what option is missing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im simply asking if a rule applies at a given time. I don't see an option other than yes or no?

So Nos, what about the first turn problem? I'd be interested to hear your take on it?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
So Nos, what about the first turn problem? I'd be interested to hear your take on it?

Cheers

Andrew

It's not a problem. You've been answered already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Normally it's not.
DWA allows you to override the conflicting rule - that Reserves is done while deploying forces.

If you're attempting to ignore the Reserves rule (which is what you do by not applying the half round up) you can't Deep Strike...

Whoa - Ho - Ho!! Lets back on up a little bit....

So now DWA overrides the Reserves rule?!?!

It overrides the timing for DWA units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Rigeld I'm not ignoring the reserves rule. I'm ignoring the allowance to put units in reserve whilst deploying my army because i have an allowance to do it at another time. Unless you feel these 2 rules occur at the same time?

So which of the two option.s above is true?

What?

Normally you are unable to nominate units for Reserves until you Deploy Forces. Agreed?
DWA requires you to nominate units for Reserves before Deploy Forces. Agreed?

There's the conflict - and that's the only conflict. And once you can only "ignore"/"replace" the conflicting rule...

Normally you can nominate upto half your units to go into reserve when deploying your army.Agreed.
DWA says you many nominate units after warlord traits.agreed?

No conflict no 50% restriction on DWA because nothing tels you there is one.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Normally you can nominate upto half your units to go into reserve when deploying your army.Agreed.
DWA says you many nominate units after warlord traits.agreed?

No conflict no 50% restriction on DWA because nothing tels you there is one.

So why are you ignoring the "up to half" when the only conflict is timing?

So can i put more than half my units in reserve using ongoing reserves as the only conflict is timing?

The restriction applies only at that time because it says it applies at that time. If you agree that DWA occurs at a different time why would that restriction apply.

If a fast vehicle moves upto 12" it can fire two guns. If it moves less than that the restriction to two guns does not apply. Agreed?

DWA tells you that designating those units must be done right after Warlord traits. That instruction is in contravention to the normal time to declare Reserves, so the DWA rule overrides the normal timing to declare those units are going in Reserve.

DWA also specifically and explicitly overrides the rule of rolling Reserves, for those units designated as making a DWA. And so for that purpose, it again overrides the normal Reserve rolls.

DWA does not give any other specific instructions which conflict with the Reserve rules, so the other portions of them (including the limit on how many units can be Reserved) remain in effect.

---------------------------

Now, getting away from the strict RAW discussion for a minute, I'd like to (in a break with normal strict YMDC custom) ask folks for a reasonableness evaluation.

I don’t believe this rule is really ambiguous, but granting for a moment, to the “whole army can DWA” crowd the idea that the rules might possibly mean that, you have to agree that it’s at BEST ambiguous, no? Absent an explicit instruction/permission to disregard the limit on reserves (half of your units, rounded up; often inaccurately shorthanded as “the 50% rule”), you’re relying on inference to give you this permission, and we’re in a situation where we can’t say with 100% certainty that this is indeed how it’s supposed to work.

Now, in this hypothetical situation (or gedankenexperiment, if I want to be extra-nerdy/international), let’s compare DWA to every other means of Reserving an entire army.

Flyers: You can, in practice, put an entire army in Flyers and Reserve it all. This of course causes you to auto-lose at the end of game turn one (barring corner cases like Phased Reinforcements), so instead let’s say you deploy a one unit, completely hidden somewhere in terrain, to avoid the auto-lose outcome. You now have (basically) a whole army in Reserve, and can deny your opponent his turn 1 (possibly also turn 2) shooting, but you have to rely on Reserve rolls to get the rest of your stuff on the table. So you always wind up with a small part of your force on the table early, waiting on Reserve rolls to get the rest of it later.

Drop Pods: Drop Pods allow you to potentially Reserve a whole army. But they also specify that only half, rounded up (gee, that sounds familiar) of them actually arrive on turn 1. The rest roll regular Reserves, and thus you always wind up with only part of your force on the table early, waiting on Reserve rolls to get the rest of it later.

Flyers & Drop pods mix: Same as above.

Daemonic Assault: Chaos Daemons always Reserve their whole army, but once again specify that only half, rounded up (is there an echo in here?) of their units actually arrive on turn 1. The rest roll regular Reserves, and thus you always wind up with only part of your force on the table early, waiting on Reserve rolls to get the rest of it later.

Old-codex Dark Angels Deathwing Assault: In the prior codex, you were allowed to nominate up to half, rounded up (starting to get a bit repetitive, ‘eh?) of your Deathwing units to arrive automatically on turn 1. So if you went full-Reserve with a DW army, you always wound up with only part of your force on the table early, waiting on Reserve rolls to get the rest of it later.

Now, given that every single way that currently exists in the game to Reserve a whole army, has the SAME counterbalance… That you only get part of it on the table early, and are always at the mercy of Reserve rolls for the rest, what do you think is the likelihood that GW really means for new-style DWA to be totally different? To NOT have the same counterbalance as every other method of full Reserve? More than that, to ALSO be superior by potentially allowing you to deny your opponent TWO entire turns of shooting at you? Does that seem likely to you? Without any sort of explicit statement confirming it?

I’ll also point out that every single one of those ways to Reserve a whole army has an EXPLICIT rule saying that the units you’re using to make it happen don’t count toward the half-of-your-unit-rounded-up maximum number of units allowed to be placed in Reserve. Drop Pods have it in the Deep Strike rules. Flyers have it in the main rulebook FAQ. Even DAEMONS, for whom it should be totally implicit and obvious, have an erreta making extra clear and explicit that YEP, they REALLY mean it, Daemons can and must Reserve their whole army. So their units don’t count toward the normal half-of-your-unit-rounded-up maximum.

Bearing that, too, in mind; leaving aside the issue of the wording and whether it really says what you believe it says, do you think that it seems sufficiently clear and conclusive to outweigh the above factors?

Does it seem likely to you, in context of how every other full-Reserve army now works, and how GW has explicitly stated which units do not count toward the limit, that DWA entitles the DA player to override the normal half-of-your-unit-rounded-up maximum?

Speaking as a Dark Angel player (one with a bunch of terminators already painted, and two new squads from Dark Vengeance ready to go), I certainly don’t think so.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So can i put more than half my units in reserve using ongoing reserves as the only conflict is timing?

Since Ongoing Reserves is factually different from Reserves, no you cannot. You have permission to put units in Reserves, not Ongoing Reserves.

The restriction applies only at that time because it says it applies at that time. If you agree that DWA occurs at a different time why would that restriction apply.

No, the restriction applies to the Reserves rule which has two requirements. DWA replaces one but not both.

If a fast vehicle moves upto 12" it can fire two guns. If it moves less than that the restriction to two guns does not apply. Agreed?

Since there are actual rules covering this I'm not sure what you're getting at - so ill just say "Whatever the Vehicle rules say."

The restriction does not apply to all reserve because it doesn't tell you that it does. It only tells you that the restriction applies to units you put in reserve when deploying your army. The timing and restriction are dependant on each other you can't break one without breaking the other unless specifically told to.

As for the RaI debate i agree it could go either way. But GW allowing a new codex to do things no other codex can is basically the entire point of a new codex isn't it?

Sure. But when they give an unprecedented new ability, they normally come out and say the unit can do the cool new thing. You don't have to deduce it by inference based on a reference chart in the back of the rulebook.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The restriction does not apply to all reserve because it doesn't tell you that it does. It only tells you that the restriction applies to units you put in reserve when deploying your army. The timing and restriction are dependant on each other you can't break one without breaking the other unless specifically told to.

That's not true at all. "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half ... ". DWA replaces the bold making it "When declaring DWA, players can choose not to deploy up to half ...".

What rule conflict are you using to ignore the second half of the sentence?

There is no conflict. The DWA rule does not use the 50% rule to put units in reserve. You have a rule that permits you to do something at a specific time you have another rule that allows you to do something similar at a different time. The two rules therefore never interact or create ANY conflict. Where are you getting permission tp use that rule at the DWA step?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Paint answer the question. When can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

Already answered. Read all my responses again.

 AndrewC wrote:

So we're left with the question of what is DWA? Is it deployment, in which case the 50% limitation is in force, but then he gets to go first, or it's not a deployment, in which case it is very questionable for the 50% limitation to be in effect.

Which is it?

I would say that either way, the 50% limit still applies because no where in the DWA ruling does it state otherwise. Permissive rule set doesn't give you permission to break a rule but you want to do it anyway. It's pretty hard to argue that DWA is not putting your units into reserves and so tell me how you justify getting around the Reserves section of the rulebook?

You want to say that it's not 'specifically' when you're deploying your army? Fine. That is the question that needs to be FAQ'd which is what I've said from the start. I don't think the question of who goes first comes into it. RAI is clear that the person who wins the roll off gets to choose deployment, so perhaps the roll off should be completed before DWA is announced if we want to get really pedantic about it.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Question for the pro-timing people.

If both players show up with warlords that have set traits (no roll), then DWA can never occur since the trigger is the roll for warlord traits?

The same goes for flyers which cannot evade/jink attacks which do not roll to hit (vector strikes) since the trigger for evading is the roll to hit.

I note that no one has bothered to tackle this very good question in regards to timing.

If both players have set warlord traits can you use DWA?

 FlingitNow wrote:
There is no conflict. The DWA rule does not use the 50% rule to put units in reserve. You have a rule that permits you to do something at a specific time you have another rule that allows you to do something similar at a different time. The two rules therefore never interact or create ANY conflict. Where are you getting permission tp use that rule at the DWA step?

So you're ignoring all the evidence I've presented?

No I've not seen any evidence that says you can use that rule at any point other than when deploying your army. Please show permission to do that.

 FlingitNow wrote:
No I've not seen any evidence that says you can use that rule at any point other than when deploying your army. Please show permission to do that.

I have, you've ignored it.

DWA conflicts with one rule. You're attempting to replace more than one rule.

Im not attempting to replace more than one rule. Again you talk as if the 50% restriction and the ability to put units in Reserve when deploying your are two separate rules. They are not.

Where is your permission to use ANY part of that rule when declaring a DWA? Where?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Im not attempting to replace more than one rule. Again you talk as if the 50% restriction and the ability to put units in Reserve when deploying your are two separate rules. They are not.

How are they not?

Where is your permission to use ANY part of that rule when declaring a DWA? Where?

You must refer to the Reserves rules when declaring DWA, agreed?

How are they 2 different rules? It is o.e rule that tells you that you can put half your army in reserve when deploying your army. It says nothing else.

Sorry but where does it give you permission to refer to the reserve rules when declaring DWA?

 FlingitNow wrote:
How are they 2 different rules? It is o.e rule that tells you that you can put half your army in reserve when deploying your army. It says nothing else.

Clause 1, clause 2. DWA replaces clause 1.

Sorry but where does it give you permission to refer to the reserve rules when declaring DWA?

So now you're back to DWA doesn't put units in Reserves?