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Now according to some people posting in dark angels threads, deathwing cannot take both the thunder hammer and storm shield option and the cyclone missile launcher option.
So what is the consensus out there?

Some say that as TH/SS replaces all weapons it would automatically remove the CML once you purchase it for that model.

Others say that you chose what order you purchase upgrades and that as the cyclone is the only heavy weapon option that does not require your storm bolter to take you may therefore take both.

P.S. I checked the front two pages and there wasn't one on this topic that I could see so I thought it would be convenient to knock this over now whilst the codex is fresh.

If we do what most people do a use precedent, we can see that gw allows for items to be purchased in a set order, this is shown by the orks faq, so for example
Buy cyclone, buy th/ss, cyclone replaced as per rules.
An alternative as set out by orks faq.
Buy th/ss, replace weapons as per rules, buy cyclone..
Gw has set the precedent that this is allowed, as such I would allow it.

Another thing for others to muddle over is if the sarge, apothecary etc, is allowed to take one, as the unit comp states "5 deathwing terminators" of which the sarge and apothecary is one.

 Formosa wrote:
Another thing for others to muddle over is if the sarge, apothecary etc, is allowed to take one, as the unit comp states "5 deathwing terminators" of which the sarge and apothecary is one.

Oh, but they are not. They are a Deathwing Terminator Sergeant and Deathwing Apothecary (or something along those lines). So, if you up a dude to an apothecary, you can't buy him a Cyclone. Sergeant can't buy a Cyclone as he isn't a Deathwing Terminator.

Oh, but they are not. They are a Deathwing Terminator Sergeant and Deathwing Apothecary (or something along those lines). So, if you up a dude to an apothecary, you can't buy him a Cyclone. Sergeant can't buy a Cyclone as he isn't a Deathwing Terminator.

if they are characters, they can. Sergeant definitely is a character but im not so sure about the apothecary...read the Character rules in theBRB. It states models that are characters are considered the same as the model they upgraded from (IE: a sergeant counts as a "Deathwing Terminator") As such, he is able to take upgrades just like any other DW termie can, unless the codex says otherwise.

Really, 6th has been out long enough for people to have a good sense of rules now, it boggles my mind how common sense is a super-power nowadays...

overlordweasel wrote:

Oh, but they are not. They are a Deathwing Terminator Sergeant and Deathwing Apothecary (or something along those lines). So, if you up a dude to an apothecary, you can't buy him a Cyclone. Sergeant can't buy a Cyclone as he isn't a Deathwing Terminator.

if they are characters, they can. Sergeant definitely is a character but im not so sure about the apothecary...read the Character rules in theBRB. It states models that are characters are considered the same as the model they upgraded from (IE: a sergeant counts as a "Deathwing Terminator") As such, he is able to take upgrades just like any other DW termie can, unless the codex says otherwise.

Really, 6th has been out long enough for people to have a good sense of rules now, it boggles my mind how common sense is a super-power nowadays...

I don't agree. If they were the same then the sergeant would have both a power fist (as an Deathwing Terminator) and a power sword (as a Deathwing Terminator Sergeant). Also if you read the Scouts entry it specifically allows the sergeant to take a sniper rifle by allowing any "model" in the squad to take the weapon. The distinction between squad sergeants and normal troopers is real enough to prevent the sarge getting the heavy weapon. Now the standard bearer or deathwing apothecary could have a heavy weapon as you could give the guy the weapon and then upgrade to an apothecary and lose the power fist.

Is this really that difficult that three threads have been started on it? who is going to make the call against a DA player with a CML on an assault terminator?

 Formosa wrote:
Another thing for others to muddle over is if the sarge, apothecary etc, is allowed to take one, as the unit comp states "5 deathwing terminators" of which the sarge and apothecary is one.

This premise is still wrong and you should stop bringing it up.

In a normal Deathwing unit which has a sergeant the unit composition states "4 Deathwing Terminators, 1 Deathwing Term Sgt." so your whole "unit compisition" argument doesn't apply to Deathwing Sergeants at all.

In the Deathwing Command Squad, which has a unit composition of "5 Deathwing Terminators" your premise would mean that Deathwing Champions and Apothecarys aren't Characters (and the Champion doesn't get WS5) because they are all Deathwing Terminators and so use the Deathwing Terminator statline, when they upgrade to Apothecarys and Champions they cease to be a normal "Deathwing Terminator", this isn't new, this isn't some hidden easter egg of the Dark Angels Codex, this is how upgrades of this type work, and for a reference see the Ork FAQ that you yourself cited in support of giving TH/SS models a Cyclone, and look at their answer for whether Painboys can take upgrades that are granted to Nobz, it's the exact same situation.

Along these lines how would things like standards work?

They start out as kit that a Deathwing Terminator can 'take'. Then a Deathwing terminator can be upgraded to a champion replacing his weapons. The banner isn't a weapon so would it remain on the character? Seems to work if you subscribe to the order of events theory, thoughts?

No you can't give the banner to the champion, see the Ork FAQ regarding Nob Painboys that I already mentioned, when a model changes from one type to another it can't have any wargear that the first type is allowed but the second isn't, even if things can happen in any order, the net result is an illegal army list.

I don't see anything that would stop you from giving a TH/SS terminator a CML, It was allowed in the last codex by a FAQ. And as long as you purchase your weapons in the "right" order you should be fine. I can't believe how nit picky people get over rules in this game, you can read into anything and twist it to your advantage if you want to bad enough.

As far as the banner on a champion or apothecary I would have to say no, the option for a banner says that a Deathwing Terminator can take a banner once he is upgraded to a champion or apothecary he ceases to be a DW terminator breaking the banner rule. Even though it would be really nice to be able to look out sir with your banner guy.

 Formosa wrote:
If we do what most people do a use precedent, we can see that gw allows for items to be purchased in a set order, this is shown by the orks faq, so for example
Buy cyclone, buy th/ss, cyclone replaced as per rules.
An alternative as set out by orks faq.
Buy th/ss, replace weapons as per rules, buy cyclone..
Gw has set the precedent that this is allowed, as such I would allow it.

Another thing for others to muddle over is if the sarge, apothecary etc, is allowed to take one, as the unit comp states "5 deathwing terminators" of which the sarge and apothecary is one.

GW cross Codex FAQ is terrable

The Tyranid FAQ says that two Hive Tyransts with the +1 to reservs upgrade does not give you +2 to reserves because the bonuses are from the same model type. The gramer of the rule says that it's +1 per model because they use singular specific grammer, i.e. 'if THE Hive Tyrant is alive and of the table' and not 'if A Hive Tyrant is alive and on the table.'

The Eldar FAQ says that two Autarch will grant +2, or +1, or +0, all depending on the player. This is despite Autarch being the same unit type, just like the Tyranid FAQ.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Another thing for others to muddle over is if the sarge, apothecary etc, is allowed to take one, as the unit comp states "5 deathwing terminators" of which the sarge and apothecary is one.

This premise is still wrong and you should stop bringing it up.

In a normal Deathwing unit which has a sergeant the unit composition states "4 Deathwing Terminators, 1 Deathwing Term Sgt." so your whole "unit compisition" argument doesn't apply to Deathwing Sergeants at all.

In the Deathwing Command Squad, which has a unit composition of "5 Deathwing Terminators" your premise would mean that Deathwing Champions and Apothecarys aren't Characters (and the Champion doesn't get WS5) because they are all Deathwing Terminators and so use the Deathwing Terminator statline, when they upgrade to Apothecarys and Champions they cease to be a normal "Deathwing Terminator", this isn't new, this isn't some hidden easter egg of the Dark Angels Codex, this is how upgrades of this type work, and for a reference see the Ork FAQ that you yourself cited in support of giving TH/SS models a Cyclone, and look at their answer for whether Painboys can take upgrades that are granted to Nobz, it's the exact same situation.

No I won't stop bringing up a rules query on a rules query forum... What on earth makes you believe anyone would list to that??

But to your points, why does unit comp not apply? By your logic certain banners would not work on champions or apothecarys etc.

Champs, apothecarys and sarges are deathwing terminators, otherwise the unit comp would say "4 deathwing terminators and 1 deathwing sergeant"

I will continue to play it this way as the wording for taking cycs and th/ss has not changed with editions, they could before so I believe they still can.

 Formosa wrote:
No I won't stop bringing up a rules query on a rules query forum... What on earth makes you believe anyone would list to that??

When it has been refuted multiple times yes you should stop bringing it up as though it was a fact.

But to your points, why does unit comp not apply?

Because it hinges on the unit composition for a Deathwing Command Squad, which doesn't match that of a Deathwing Terminator Squad, so your entire argument, which continually mentions Sergeants, cannot possibly apply to Sergeants who aren't in the unit which has the composition your whole argument is premised upon.

By your logic certain banners would not work on champions or apothecarys etc.

That's not true, don't put words in my mouth, it's a bad technique for debating facts, regardless, there are no Banners which apply effects to "Deathwing Terminators" the Deathwing Company Banner specifies that it applies to models with the Inner Circle special rule.

Champs, apothecarys and sarges are deathwing terminators

No they aren't, they are Deathwing Champions, Deathwing Apothecaries, and Deathwing Terminator Sergeants respectively.

otherwise the unit comp would say "4 deathwing terminators and 1 deathwing sergeant"

it does, just not for the command squad because there's no sergeant in a command squad.

In an answer to the OP question, there is absolutely no doubt nor should there be a question as to whether or not a TH/SS DW Termie can take a Cyclone Missile Launcher. In reading the rules for them if you have an understanding of the English language it is blatantly obvious that they can. Anyone who argues otherwise is either obtuse or a forum troll.

I think it's the "replace all weapons with TH/SS" in the entry that makes it uncertain. Because I see the CML as an additional weapon. But the option is lower down the list and is in a list that does not specifically state that those options are weapons, though most are.

And please, allow for some of us not to master the English language as well as most Americans and English folks. For some of us, it is a second or third language.

The way it reads you replace all weapons of a Deathwing Terminator. Meaning you replace the Powerfist/Storm Bolter because that is what comes on a Deathwing terminator. Correct???? A CML is an additional add on to a deathwing terminator not a stock built in piece to his war gear that has to be replaced due to the wording for the TH/SS weapon load out. Correct? If those statements are true which I really can't see how anyone can doubt that (Unless your just upset and don't think it's fair) how exactly does this need to be debated? To me its clearly worded and I don't see any issue as to why you can't take both weapon options. If the TH/SS was worded to say maybe "A thunder hammer and storm shield can be taken but replaces all weapons and doesn't allow for any other weapon options to be taken" for....5 pts then obviously you couldn't take both weapon options but that's not how the rule is worded. Not to mention all the constant references to other faq's showing that this is a viable option. It doesn't take an english degree or a mastery of the english language to understand how this is a usable weapon load out for a deathwing terminator.

A DW player in my local club has build th/ss terminators with cyclones because this was legal by faq in the old codex.

Since i dont want him to pull apart his beautifully painted models and the fact that this was legal in the old codex i would never deny him the use. If GW states in a faq that Th/SS cant take them i will follow that. Until then its perfectly fine.

I know that this doesnt belong here since this forum is for discussing the RAW/RAI but i dont think GW would just illegalise the already build models of several Dark Angels players. I know i know they did in the past and they did even more evil stuff ... but im still not buying that they intended to disallow such a setup.

All weapons is all weapons. If they meant storm bolter and powerful they'd have written that. Also check the blood angels librarian dread faq. That tells you to swap all weapons for dccw and force weapon. It says if you then swap the dccw for something that you pay points for nothing as the replaces part for the libby means exactly that. It replaces all.

Yes, all weapons is all weapons, and you replace all weapons for the th/ss....then you add the cml. There is precedent supporting this with the orks. There is no precedent denying this that I am aware of.

 FlingitNow wrote:
All weapons is all weapons. If they meant storm bolter and powerful they'd have written that. Also check the blood angels librarian dread faq. That tells you to swap all weapons for dccw and force weapon. It says if you then swap the dccw for something that you pay points for nothing as the replaces part for the libby means exactly that. It replaces all.

Shootaboyz and Ork Nob with powerklaw. Order matters, so you replace ALL THEN you buy the CML. Totally legal

 FlingitNow wrote:
All weapons is all weapons. If they meant storm bolter and powerful they'd have written that. Also check the blood angels librarian dread faq. That tells you to swap all weapons for dccw and force weapon. It says if you then swap the dccw for something that you pay points for nothing as the replaces part for the libby means exactly that. It replaces all.

So are you just obtuse (doubtful) or a forum troll (probable)?

The rule is clear and if there was any doubt just check the precedence set with the blood angels. The lengths some people will go to trying to gain an advantage astounds me. Wording is clear and precedent is clear. Is says all weapons people trying to argue the cml is not a weapon are either cheating deliberately or trolling.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The rule is clear and if there was any doubt just check the precedence set with the blood angels. The lengths some people will go to trying to gain an advantage astounds me. Wording is clear and precedent is clear. Is says all weapons people trying to argue the cml is not a weapon are either cheating deliberately or trolling.

Did you even bother checking sources?

Ork Nob and Powerklaw in a shoota boyz mob. Proves you wrong.

You change all weapons for TH/SS. You then buy a CML. Prove that is wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


You change all weapons for TH/SS. You then buy a CML. Prove that is wrong.

yes you can do this and guess what weapons you have at the end as the th/ss replaces all weapons it should be easy to work out...

Have you checked the more recent and also space marine based precedent of the blood angels librarian? The wording is completely clear as is the precedent. Do you really need to defend the indefensible just to try to gain the tiniest of advantage? Just play by the rules. Cml is a weapon and is therefore part of the set of all weapons.

Prove the cml is not included in all weapons...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ork Nob and Powerklaw in a shoota boyz mob. Proves you wrong.

What are you talking about, the FAQ states that you can change out the Nobz weapons to have a PK before making them shoota boyz making it legal to have a Nob with PK in a shoota boy squad, you can also use him as one of the boyz to give a big shoota or Rokkit too.

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:


You change all weapons for TH/SS. You then buy a CML. Prove that is wrong.

yes you can do this and guess what weapons you have at the end as the th/ss replaces all weapons it should be easy to work out...

Have you checked the more recent and also space marine based precedent of the blood angels librarian? The wording is completely clear as is the precedent. Do you really need to defend the indefensible just to try to gain the tiniest of advantage? Just play by the rules. Cml is a weapon and is therefore part of the set of all weapons.

Prove the cml is not included in all weapons...

I'm not finding any FAQ regarding Blood Angels Librarians (other than what disciplines they can take). Can you please elaborate what you are trying to argue with BA precedent?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ork Nob and Powerklaw in a shoota boyz mob. Proves you wrong.

What are you talking about, the FAQ states that you can change out the Nobz weapons to have a PK before making them shoota boyz making it legal to have a Nob with PK in a shoota boy squad, you can also use him as one of the boyz to give a big shoota or Rokkit too.

Right certain wargear can be taken in an unspecified order. So you upgrade the Nob, then replace all weapons.

Ba faq page 4 first question. Wording for furioso librarian is replaces all equipment with... This means you cannot purchase any other equipment. So guess what replaces all weapons means for purchasing more weapons...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Ba faq page 4 first question. Wording for furioso librarian is replaces all equipment with... This means you cannot purchase any other equipment. So guess what replaces all weapons means for purchasing more weapons...

Ignore this guy, he is just trolling. The wording is clear and I have had 2 different respectable TO agree that the TH/SS DW Termies CAN take a CML. Some rude troll on a forum will not convince me otherwise. Back to your cave FlingitNow (Troll name if ever there was one).

You have 2 nameless TOs you're expecting use to take your word for that allow something clearly not allowed by threesome codex. Well a TO can run their tournament how they want. That doesn't change the rules. The exact issue Jason come up in the preceeding space marine codex and hs been ruled on by gw. But gws opinion should clearly be ignored because of 2 imaginary TOs...

I lean towards the interpretation that CML can be added to TH/SS in an "order of operations" sort of way, and I believe GW will FAQ things in this direction as they tend to Errata/FAQ in the way that helps prevent people from having to tear apart models. Only time will tell I suppose, and I honestly see good points from both sides of the argument.