Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It makes me think though. A space marine codex with the rules for all space marine loyalists, or hell, just make it a tomb that has all they different codexes in one. That would actually be a codex worth $50-$75.

Experiment 626 wrote:


Which is where allies and/or 'counts as' come into play, while Forgeworld can do the OTT amazing stuff they always put out. (and most of the comunity seems too damn scard to even try and give things a go with...)

And why not take this approach towards space marines? You can easily play any chapter with vanilla dex. I repeat: Adeptus Mechanicus is more different from any existing army than any two marine armies are from each other.

It would help the vanilla codex if they didn't use a full page for each entry. It's only bloated because they needed wardian fluff for each unit.

 Crimson wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Which is where allies and/or 'counts as' come into play, while Forgeworld can do the OTT amazing stuff they always put out. (and most of the comunity seems too damn scard to even try and give things a go with...)

And why not take this approach towards space marines? You can easily play any chapter with vanilla dex. I repeat: Adeptus Mechanicus is more different from any existing army than any two marine armies are from each other.

Because the differences between Marines would turn a single monolith tome into a giant mess.

For example, think of how awful just the Tactical Squad entry would be if it had to include Vanilla+SW+BA+DA+Templar. You'd at the very least require added bullet points for things like;
- If taken as part of a SW army, unit must instead replace heavy weapon w/additional special weapon.
One model may also take a power weapon or power fist at +X pts
One model may take Mark of the Wulfen at +X pts
One model may take a Wolf Standard for +X pts
Entire unit gain X/Y/Z special rules

- If taken as part of a Black Templar army, entire unit may replace Bolters with Chainswords.
May add +X Neophytes to the unit for +Y pts/model
One model may take a power weapon or power fist at +X pts in place of a heavy weapon.
Entire unit gains X/Y/Z special rules

- If taken as part of a Blood Angels army, entire unit gains X/Y/Z special rules.

- If taken as part of a Dark Angels army, entire unit gains X/Y/Z special rules.



And you'd have to do that for every single entry across the entire codex! It would be one gaint@$$ confusing heap of crap AND hugely open the door to massive abuses both innocent and purposeful.
Note that GW tried this type of approch with the 3.5 CSM codex, and it was easily one of the most confusing books ever, especially for newer players to get to grips with.

Like it or not, the differences between the various 'Big 5' Marine Chapters are handled better by having their own seperate codices.

1) Unified marine codex would not have to include every option that currently exist in sub-codices.

2) Most of the modification to the units would not be in the unit entry but on the Chapter's trait page.

 Crimson wrote:
1) Unified marine codex would not have to include every option that currently exist in sub-codices.

So, in other words, "drop options for army X so that my army Y can get more stuff!"?

Remember the outcry when Pariahs stopped existing and then multiply that by however many things such an approach would remove.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
1) Unified marine codex would not have to include every option that currently exist in sub-codices.

So, in other words, "drop options for army X so that my army Y can get more stuff!"?

Remember the outcry when Pariahs stopped existing and then multiply that by however many things such an approach would remove.

Eh, Chaos Codex lost all their options and got gutted like a kipper. Chaos would at least enjoy the Irony of seeing another factions (or factions I suppose) getting cut down to size. Especially one with the most love by GW.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
1) Unified marine codex would not have to include every option that currently exist in sub-codices.

So, in other words, "drop options for army X so that my army Y can get more stuff!"?

Remember the outcry when Pariahs stopped existing and then multiply that by however many things such an approach would remove.

Eh, Chaos Codex lost all their options and got gutted like a kipper. Chaos would at least enjoy the Irony of seeing another factions (or factions I suppose) getting cut down to size. Especially one with the most love by GW.

Exactly; Chaos lost loads of options. How well was that recieved by the player base?

This:

-Codex: Space Marines (or Adeptus Astartes): All marines in one. Each of the main (BA, Ultra, BT, White Scars, DA, Salamanders, SW, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and Iron Hands) gets their own devoted special rules page and hero.
-Codex: Imperial Guard: Same as Marines, normal guard with some more tanks and maybe some more specialist units, but: DKoK, Cadia, Catachan, Mordian Guard, Tallarn, Tanith First, Elysians and Valhallans each get their own page with special rules and their own hero.
-Codex: Inquisition: Grey Knights, Sisters, Deathwatch and Inquisitors all in one.

-Codex Ork Klans: Orks, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special clan rules.

-Codex Deamons of Caos: the horrors of the Warp.
-Codex Legions of Chaos: Traitor marines and traitor guard, including things like the Blood Pact; again with special rules per each god, and special characters that give overall traits.

-Codex: Craftworld Eldar: Eldar, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special craftworld rules.
-Codex: Dark Eldar: DE. with heroes, that provide special rules, and special cabal rules.

-Codex: Necrons: Necrons, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special tomb world rules.

-Codex: Tau: Tau Empire, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special sept rules. Maybe some purely alien auxiliary armies like Kroot (not Vespid though, they aren't widespread enough.)

-Codex: Tyranids: Tyranids, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special hive fleet rules, like Behemoth gains Known Enemy: Space Marines, or even more specific, Ultramarines.

Now, I know that this will cause a lot of problems. This would basically require a reboot of almost the whole game, but I think it would be worth it, as long as Games Workshop shows us that they are at least capable of rational thinking. And it also lowers the codex volume by 4.
Another problem would be the amount of specializations an army could have and the confusion this might cause. You could have a, not only Space Marines or IG or Tau army, but a Space Marines White Scars very fast army, or Imperial Guard Artillery Regiment with close defense units, or a Tau version of the Halo: ODST.
I think this would be awesome, not only because it would make games (and lists a lot more challenging) but it would make specialist armies a whole lot cheaper (Games Workshop does hate this though) to build. I have a friend who likes BA and SW, and he almost literally had to buy two armies that were almost completely identical except for Commander Dante/Njal Stormcaller and the Sanguinary Guard/Wolf Guard.
This system of mini-dexes within a codex also is technically a new codex, for the OP.


Also, as long as we are discussing codexes, take away this hardcover gaking feth. PLEASE, I want a book I can keep open on a table without it falling into pieces, not a brick!
Arcani

-Codex: Inquisition: Grey Knights, Sisters, Deathwatch and Inquisitors all in one.

Sisters Are Not Inquisition!

They are apart of the CHURCH, Codex: Adeptus Ministorum, the Ecclesiarchy. They are only called upon by certain inquisitors because they are devout for rooting out heretics, but it is not the same as being apart of them. They had their own codex with more church related units and items, before codex: Witch hunters.

Codex: Kroot!!!!

 Arcani wrote:
This:

-Codex: Space Marines (or Adeptus Astartes): All marines in one. Each of the main (BA, Ultra, BT, White Scars, DA, Salamanders, SW, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and Iron Hands) gets their own devoted special rules page and hero.
-Codex: Imperial Guard: Same as Marines, normal guard with some more tanks and maybe some more specialist units, but: DKoK, Cadia, Catachan, Mordian Guard, Tallarn, Tanith First, Elysians and Valhallans each get their own page with special rules and their own hero.
-Codex: Inquisition: Grey Knights, Sisters, Deathwatch and Inquisitors all in one.

-Codex Ork Klans: Orks, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special clan rules.

-Codex Deamons of Caos: the horrors of the Warp.
-Codex Legions of Chaos: Traitor marines and traitor guard, including things like the Blood Pact; again with special rules per each god, and special characters that give overall traits.

-Codex: Craftworld Eldar: Eldar, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special craftworld rules.
-Codex: Dark Eldar: DE. with heroes, that provide special rules, and special cabal rules.

-Codex: Necrons: Necrons, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special tomb world rules.

-Codex: Tau: Tau Empire, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special sept rules. Maybe some purely alien auxiliary armies like Kroot (not Vespid though, they aren't widespread enough.)

-Codex: Tyranids: Tyranids, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special hive fleet rules, like Behemoth gains Known Enemy: Space Marines, or even more specific, Ultramarines.

Now, I know that this will cause a lot of problems. This would basically require a reboot of almost the whole game, but I think it would be worth it, as long as Games Workshop shows us that they are at least capable of rational thinking. And it also lowers the codex volume by 4.
Another problem would be the amount of specializations an army could have and the confusion this might cause. You could have a, not only Space Marines or IG or Tau army, but a Space Marines White Scars very fast army, or Imperial Guard Artillery Regiment with close defense units, or a Tau version of the Halo: ODST.
I think this would be awesome, not only because it would make games (and lists a lot more challenging) but it would make specialist armies a whole lot cheaper (Games Workshop does hate this though) to build. I have a friend who likes BA and SW, and he almost literally had to buy two armies that were almost completely identical except for Commander Dante/Njal Stormcaller and the Sanguinary Guard/Wolf Guard.
This system of mini-dexes within a codex also is technically a new codex, for the OP.

Same thing like I said, and this would be the best way becaue you can try almost every mix.
Like they guys said: "Space Marines White Scars very fast army, or Imperial Guard Artillery Regiment with close defense units, or a Tau version of the Halo: ODST." So everybody woud lbe able to build the army they like.

The only correction I would add here: Sisters of Battle shoud lbe in Codex: Adeptus Ministorum or Codex: Ecclesiarchy. The yare army of the Imperial Chruch, not Inquisition.

 Arcani wrote:


-Codex: Space Marines (or Adeptus Astartes): All marines in one. Each of the main (BA, Ultra, BT, White Scars, DA, Salamanders, SW, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and Iron Hands) gets their own devoted special rules page and hero.

-Codex: Imperial Guard: Same as Marines, normal guard with some more tanks and maybe some more specialist units, but: DKoK, Cadia, Catachan, Mordian Guard, Tallarn, Tanith First, Elysians and Valhallans each get their own page with special rules and their own hero.

-Codex: Inquisition: Grey Knights, Assassins, Deathwatch and Inquisitors all in one.

-Codex: Ecclesiarchy: SoB, Arbities (allies) and Fraternus Milita.

- Codex: Mechanicus: Skitarri.

-Codex Ork Klans: Orks, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special clan rules.

-Codex Chaos: Traitor marines and traitor guard, including things like the Blood Pact; again with special rules per each god, and special characters that give overall traits. Also includes Demons which can be used as allies or a standalone army.

-Codex: Craftworld Eldar: Eldar, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special craftworld rules.

-Codex: Dark Eldar: DE. with heroes, that provide special rules, and special cabal rules.

-Codex: Necrons: Necrons, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special tomb world rules.

-Codex: Tau: Tau Empire, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special sept rules. Maybe some purely alien auxiliary armies like Kroot (not Vespid though, they aren't widespread enough.)

-Codex: Tyranids: Tyranids, with heroes, that provide special rules, and special hive fleet rules, like Behemoth gains Known Enemy: Space Marines, or even more specific, Ultramarines.

Fix'd with this addition:

All this would be done in 40k 7th edition as a "total recall" event where every army gets a new codex the day the BRB is released. Every update, aka; new codex would be given out at the same time so that every army will never be outdated, and new army's may be introduced seamlessly whenever GW feels it is fitting.

 DemetriDominov wrote:

Fix'd with this addition:

All this would be done in 40k 7th edition as a "total recall" event where every army gets a new codex the day the BRB is released. Every update, aka; new codex would be given out at the same time so that every army will never be outdated, and new army's may be introduced seamlessly whenever GW feels it is fitting.

Yeah, my idea might happen, this ^ never will though. Too much work for GW and it'd be a very confusing first months, new ruleset for everything and you don't know anything about anything? Very, very cool idea, but very idealistic.

They need to update the hopelessly out of date armies first before they have a new faction

 Crimson wrote:
I'd really love to see an Ad Mech codex. They're a faction that has always been part of the background and could make an interesting and different enough army.

However, I understand that Imperium is already over-represented. I'd just roll all loyalist marines (with possible exception of Grey Knights) into one huge and flexible marine codex and that would free space for more varied codices.

Also, I've been eyeing the FW Eldar Corsairs list, and that could have potential as a regular army.


My codex lineup would be:

Space Marines (A huge book with a lot of customisation)
Imperial Guard (with an option to make a traitor guard army)
Inquisition (with GK and Deathwatch AND options for fully marineless force!)
Warriors of Faith (Sisters and other Ecclesiarchy stuff; angry mobs of commoners included!)

Tau Empire (with some HQ options for non-tau races, so you could make, say, fully Kroot or fully Vespid allied contingents for another army)

Craftworld Eldar
Dark Eldar


Orks

Necrons

Tyranids (with support for a genestealer cult type of a force)

Traitor Legions (a massive book with a lot of options)
Daemons of Chaos

Also, 'natural allies' should have built-in support for allying. Chaos marines should have icons for summoning daemons, an allied inquisitor should be able to be a warlord of any imperial army, etc.

This has to happen first before they attempt to add another faction. (for those who didn't realised, I removed Admech and eldar corsairs from the list, as they aren't an update of a current codex )

once this happens, admech, eldar corsairs and maybe another race (unsure what, though, but it would have to be good and xenos...

That or combine corsair, craftworld, dark eldar and exodites into one codex, so 2 new factions + 2 current ones are combined, though that would probably never happen nor work (all the SM codices rolled into one would, though, especially with traits brought back (don't know what their actual name was, didn't play 40k back then)

New faction? No, absolutely not, they don't even keep the current ones up to date.

And what's with this AdMech army stuff? They don't really fight as a separate entity from what I know.

 DemetriDominov wrote:

All this would be done in 40k 7th edition as a "total recall" event where every army gets a new codex the day the BRB is released. Every update, aka; new codex would be given out at the same time so that every army will never be outdated, and new army's may be introduced seamlessly whenever GW feels it is fitting.

This is precisely how it should be done from a gamer's perspective.

And it wouldn't be any work overall for GW. The BRB and codices could be written co-operatively, which is more likely to result in better balance among the codices. No "codex creep" and whatnot, and no incompatible rules and whatever. They'd also have all the time between editions to sculpt new figures and such to do a mass release.

But no, they want to stagger their sales and let players suffer for it. And in the end they're likely not even making more money out of it. They'd still be selling figs and books throughout the time period between the release. Yes, obviously there would be a big spike, but in the long term there'd be little difference. But noooo, they have to keep their money-grubbing shareholders happy in each quarter. Never mind keeping players happy and thus spending more and more.

tvih wrote:

But no, they want to stagger their sales and let players suffer for it. And in the end they're likely not even making more money out of it. They'd still be selling figs and books throughout the time period between the release. Yes, obviously there would be a big spike, but in the long term there'd be little difference. But noooo, they have to keep their money-grubbing shareholders happy in each quarter. Never mind keeping players happy and thus spending more and more.

It all comes back down to this: if they didn't have shareholders, which would be a very bad business model and probably would cause their prices to go even higher, we could be happy gamers with things we actually like.


The other thing we could do could be to all pool our money and buy GW so that we can get what we want.

 Arcani wrote:

tvih wrote:

But no, they want to stagger their sales and let players suffer for it. And in the end they're likely not even making more money out of it. They'd still be selling figs and books throughout the time period between the release. Yes, obviously there would be a big spike, but in the long term there'd be little difference. But noooo, they have to keep their money-grubbing shareholders happy in each quarter. Never mind keeping players happy and thus spending more and more.

It all comes back down to this: if they didn't have shareholders, which would be a very bad business model and probably would cause their prices to go even higher, we could be happy gamers with things we actually like.


The other thing we could do could be to all pool our money and buy GW so that we can get what we want.

I agree that all the books absolutely need to be updated, but I kind of like having things staggered. It makes things more interesting, getting new stuff every month, even if it isn't for my army. In an ideal world, they'd do what Privateer Press does, and release all of the books and models in them at once but then keep making new models with WD rules or rules on their website. That way we have books that all work together, but also don't have to sit through 5-6 years with no new stuff to look forward to.

Codex Administratum. Force your opponent to work trough 2d6 terrabyte of data within 1d6 hours to find the single, random error, or he/she has lost the game.

I think the only codex that can reasonably be added at this point is a Codex: Mercenaries, to take advantage of the ally system.

This would essentially be a conpendum of mini codexes, allowing for many disparate allied units to be taken to bolster existing forces. Each section will have 1-2 choices from each FOC slot, possibly with special alli rules to allow taking them without HQ or troops etc.

This would allow GW to fill in all the smaller factions that are not quite worth making an entire codex of.

For example it could include an Allies of the Imperium section, which will have DeathWatch squads, Ad Machinarium centurions etc, and the Adeptus Arbiters, with Techpriests, Arbites Judges etc as HQs.

Simularly, a Mercenaries section open to everyone might include Squats, Hivers, Gangers, mutants, roque psykers etc, perhaps with Rogue Traders and local Warlords as HQs.

Finally, a Xenos Forces section would include a coalition various alien races that can be added and open to other Xenos codexes, like space lizardmen, enslavers, slaan, etc.

This should not be too difficult to implement, and there is a lot of precidence in other game systems of such factions. They can even include special FoC rules to make all Merc armies legal.

Codex: Mechanicus
Maybe Codex: Blood Ravens (Think Thousand Son's but Loyal)

That is all.

Right now I'm just waiting for the new Ork Codex. I wouldn't mind them bring back the idea of Clan specific boys. Example, Snakebite Ork Boys got an extra attack in close combat, but no ranged weapons. if IRC.

The need of an Ork Codex is AP2, viable close combat Deffdreads(maybe make them Fast, Walkers), and update everything except Big Mek, Nobs, Warboss, Dakkajets, and Battlewagons.

DrDuckman wrote:
I think the only codex that can reasonably be added at this point is a Codex: Mercenaries, to take advantage of the ally system.

This would essentially be a conpendum of mini codexes, allowing for many disparate allied units to be taken to bolster existing forces. Each section will have 1-2 choices from each FOC slot, possibly with special alli rules to allow taking them without HQ or troops etc.

This would allow GW to fill in all the smaller factions that are not quite worth making an entire codex of.

For example it could include an Allies of the Imperium section, which will have DeathWatch squads, Ad Machinarium centurions etc, and the Adeptus Arbiters, with Techpriests, Arbites Judges etc as HQs.

Simularly, a Mercenaries section open to everyone might include Squats, Hivers, Gangers, mutants, roque psykers etc, perhaps with Rogue Traders and local Warlords as HQs.

Finally, a Xenos Forces section would include a coalition various alien races that can be added and open to other Xenos codexes, like space lizardmen, enslavers, slaan, etc.

This should not be too difficult to implement, and there is a lot of precidence in other game systems of such factions. They can even include special FoC rules to make all Merc armies legal.

BINGO
You win sire.

Definitely do NOT put all SM into one codex. You're going to have a 500 page book. Imagine lugging that around with you! Instead, I propose having one master SM codex and having several far far smaller codexes for each individual weird SM army. So if you want to play Space Wolves, you get the Space Marine codex and then the Space Wolves mini-codex that draws from the main codex. It would appear that GW is taking their focus away from SM.

I'd like to see the Ulmeathic (sp?) Confederation.

DrDuckman wrote:
I think the only codex that can reasonably be added at this point is a Codex: Mercenaries, to take advantage of the ally system.

This would essentially be a conpendum of mini codexes, allowing for many disparate allied units to be taken to bolster existing forces. Each section will have 1-2 choices from each FOC slot, possibly with special alli rules to allow taking them without HQ or troops etc.

This would allow GW to fill in all the smaller factions that are not quite worth making an entire codex of.

For example it could include an Allies of the Imperium section, which will have DeathWatch squads, Ad Machinarium centurions etc, and the Adeptus Arbiters, with Techpriests, Arbites Judges etc as HQs.

Simularly, a Mercenaries section open to everyone might include Squats, Hivers, Gangers, mutants, roque psykers etc, perhaps with Rogue Traders and local Warlords as HQs.

Finally, a Xenos Forces section would include a coalition various alien races that can be added and open to other Xenos codexes, like space lizardmen, enslavers, slaan, etc.

This should not be too difficult to implement, and there is a lot of precidence in other game systems of such factions. They can even include special FoC rules to make all Merc armies legal.

This is indeed a great idea. However, it might be more feasible to do this piecemeal as White Dwarf articles. Whenever they have rules and models for a new allied contingent they can publish it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Definitely do NOT put all SM into one codex. You're going to have a 500 page book. Imagine lugging that around with you! Instead, I propose having one master SM codex and having several far far smaller codexes for each individual weird SM army. So if you want to play Space Wolves, you get the Space Marine codex and then the Space Wolves mini-codex that draws from the main codex. It would appear that GW is taking their focus away from SM.

It used to be like that at some point. Third edition, I think. And yes, it would be preferable to what we have now.

 Crimson wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Definitely do NOT put all SM into one codex. You're going to have a 500 page book. Imagine lugging that around with you! Instead, I propose having one master SM codex and having several far far smaller codexes for each individual weird SM army. So if you want to play Space Wolves, you get the Space Marine codex and then the Space Wolves mini-codex that draws from the main codex. It would appear that GW is taking their focus away from SM.

It used to be like that at some point. Third edition, I think. And yes, it would be preferable to what we have now.

No, it was horrid back then and definately NOT! preferable to what we have now...

Those tiny mini-codices has crap for background, a joke of a hobby section and it was a PITA to build army lists when you had to reference multiple books.

I'm sorry you hate the multiple Marine codices so much, but consider that the profits GW pulls in off of those full-sized books is what allowed them to re-invent and re-release long neglected armies with little to no player base like DE or Necrons.

Besides, as far as I'm concerned, my codex is just as important and valuable as yours. Why should mine be squated and not yours?!

I'm sorry you hate the multiple Marine codices so much, but consider that the profits GW pulls in off of those full-sized books is what allowed them to re-invent and re-release long neglected armies with little to no player base like DE or Necrons.

They probably wouldn't have such a poor player base if they didn't keep them without updates for so long! Also known as the "Cycle of Fail". Because GW devotes all its resources to SM, others get left behind, those that get left behind, get less popular because they start to suck, and then nobody uses them, thus they end up with no player base!

No, it was horrid back then and definately NOT! preferable to what we have now...

Those tiny mini-codices has crap for background, a joke of a hobby section and it was a PITA to build army lists when you had to reference multiple books.

Did it quite well when I had my DA army, wouldn't mind going back to it if we could get everyone just like a full fledged SM codex.

Besides, as far as I'm concerned, my codex is just as important and valuable as yours. Why should mine be squated and not yours?!

Because it's just a special snowflake army variant that could easily go in the main book. I had quite of bit of my stuff squatted, why not yours too?

Wow, all this talk about codexes. When I started the thread I hadn't even thought about them. Probably because I never owned any back in the day when I used to play. I suppose that is a big part of the game though, huh? And before anyone asks how we used to play the gave without codexes, we just used modified versions of Space Hulk's rules.


I actually like the idea of a Codex: Mercenaries though. That actually would be a good way to bring back a lot of the older factions and units that the game used to have, like the Arbites and the Squats as well as allow them to implement some new ally units like the Tarellian Dog Soldiers.

Absolutely not. GW has enough armies in Warhammer 40k, they have just about every meaningful sci-fi trope covered, there's no need to add entirely new armies. Maybe a Mercenaries book to take advantage of the Allies rules, maybe, but no new armies. Honestly, they could afford to shed one of the Marine variants at this point.

Honestly, i think they should rewrite C:GK, and introduce,
Codex: Ordo Malleus
Codex: Ordo Xenos
Codex: Ordo Hereticus
It'll be 1st, super cool to see what a hereticus army would look like, 2nd, love for Deathwatch, and 3rd C:GK will stop being C:Shiny Marines With Power Weapons and fluff-murder
unfortunately, with the recent amount of Ward in Gw, it's more likely to be Codex: Ultramarines before my wish is granted.