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Not all of the flyers need to be game breaking awesome you know. They can be good, but I don't think they need to be broken.

I smell customer service humoring a customer.

I smell customer service humoring a customer.

My thoughts exactly.

I emailed them to tell them NOT to change a thing. Unless of course, they make Phil Kelly personally apologize for Warp Talons and Mutilators first. I want it recorded on my voicemail. THEN we can talk about the Nephi-whats-it ...lol

 Ixe wrote:
Also, fill out this one-question survey stating that you won't buy a Nephilim until its rules are fixed, and offering a suggestion about how you think that should be accomplished.

I wrote in my own option:

Simply give the Blacksword Missiles Target lock, which it had, and make the Blacksword Missiles use the small blast marker.

I suggest others do the same. The vehicle is fine as it is, as long as the missiles get Target lock back, and are made to use the small blast marker

I partially agree- for the current cost...

allow replacement of the TL heavy bolters with the megabolter instead of the TL lascannon. Say +20 points to upgrade therefore lowering the cost by 20. Heavy bolters do not qualify as an air superiority weapon.

On the positiive, the ability to change any weapon destroyed to an immobilize can be quite nice for an air superiority fighter... The problem is that we are talking it really only affecting 1 shot per turn - the lascannon.

The missiles again are rather poor anti-air missiles... 4 one shot S7 missiles means about 3 hit and maybe one penetrates per game.... Perhaps again discount it and allow +10 cost upgrades to krak missiles.

Or course we could alway do the IG thing ... Lower the cost by 50 points and allow you to trade out the heavy bolters and missiles for 10 to 20 points for TL lascannons.

DAaddict wrote:
Or course we could alway do the IG thing ... Lower the cost by 50 points and allow you to trade out the heavy bolters and missiles for 10 to 20 points for TL lascannons.

you would have to give it BS3 as well then.

Tycho wrote:

I smell customer service humoring a customer.

My thoughts exactly.

I emailed them to tell them NOT to change a thing. Unless of course, they make Phil Kelly personally apologize for Warp Talons and Mutilators first. I want it recorded on my voicemail. THEN we can talk about the Nephi-whats-it ...lol

I actually have found warp talons useful and fun to play with. Still can't figure out how a slow and purposeful unit is supposed to be an effective assault unit, though....

Skriker

The biggest "problem" with it, is that it is priced with 6ths flyers rules in mind. It would probably not seem that off if Stormravens and Vendettas weren't priced as skimmers.

It would be nice if GW just stopped at 6th, got everyone's codex updated, then just keep updating codexs to evolve the meta.

This books falling 2 editions behind system is foolish.

The biggest "problem" with it, is that it is priced with 6ths flyers rules in mind. It would probably not seem that off if Stormravens and Vendettas weren't priced as skimmers.

QFT

My 2000pt BA list includes two Storm Ravens. I am dreading what that list is going to look like when the points for the SR get adjusted to 6th ed ... Yikes.

 ShatteredBlade wrote:
Not all of the flyers need to be game breaking awesome you know. They can be good, but I don't think they need to be broken.

And not all flyers have to be the same. The Heldrake and the Nephilim are created by different groups for different reasons, requiring different tactics.

If you reallly want balance, your looking for a slight nerf to the helldrake, not a buff to the nephilim

Hetelic wrote:
If you reallly want balance, your looking for a slight nerf to the helldrake, not a buff to the nephilim

The Heldrake is fine.

Vendettas on the other hand...

The Heldrake is fine.

Vendettas on the other hand...

Agreed on the Heldrake. I think it's kind of disingenuous to complain about the ONE possibly powerful unit in the entire codex when everything else in it is kind of meh.

Vendettas in one's or two's I don't mind at all. It's when your facing NINE of the damn things that things get hairy ... lol

Hrm, I dunno about that. Even as a CSM player, I think the Heldrake is a bit overboard. A flying Hellhound with that gets AP3 for its flamer and never has to Jink, that can regain hull points, give itself a turn of rerolls, and make S7 AP3 no-cover vector strike attacks for a mere 170pts?

It's hard to say they didn't go a bit overboard with it.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

And not all flyers have to be the same. The Heldrake and the Nephilim are created by different groups for different reasons, requiring different tactics.

So true. I've not played against a Heldrake, but everything I've seen says that its primarily ground attack. It can't use a baleflamer against a flyer can it?

If you look at the Nephilium as a "Multi-role" fighter, instead of the fluff "Air superiority" It works good. You can take Flakk missile devastator squads, for 170pts, or heaven forbid you just take an aegis defense line with a quad gun for 100 pts for anti-flier.

Now that I got to browse the DA codex a bit more... I guess the crappiness of the Nephilim depends on what you compare it to. Compared to something like the Heldrake? Yeah, it's not great. Compared to a Storm Talon? Not that bad, considering the extra hull point and slightly more shots. Then again, the Storm Talon always needed to be cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ralis wrote:
I've not played against a Heldrake, but everything I've seen says that its primarily ground attack. It can't use a baleflamer against a flyer can it?

No it can't, but even if you take the Baleflamer rather than the Hades it can still Vector Strike a flyer - no Jinks allowed - for 1+D3 S7 autohits, and then proceed to flame a ground target to death. The torrent flamer can reach up to 20" now, what with the thin end of the template being placed up to 12" away and the flamer template being about 8" long. And now it can fire it 360 degrees, which is nuts - combined with a Vector strike, the Heldrake can utterly decimate a 10-man SM squad in a single pass. Of course it can now also shoot the Hades 360, so you could fly through an enemy flyer from the front and Vector it, and then shoot it in the arse with the Hades. Whoo-pee. Thank goodness I only bought one instead of two last month, as I feel bad for owning even one of such a cheesy unit, and as such who knows when I will actually build it.

One thing i don't understand why there has to be so many different missiles. Every vehicle seems to need its own type of special missiles. It is unnecessary and confusing. Just make rules for few different types of missiles, and then arm all your vehicles with one most appropriate.

So you got a new codex and a ton of new models but youre still not happy? Sounds like I can call GW and get BT, SoB, and Tau updated by next week!!! Ill get right on it!

 Goat wrote:
They will fix it. They aren't going to put out a $70.00ish item just so no one buys them. Bad business. It'll get FAQ'd to heldrake troll level in no time.

They do that all the time.


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 d3m01iti0n wrote:
So you got a new codex and a ton of new models but youre still not happy? Sounds like I can call GW and get BT, SoB, and Tau updated by next week!!! Ill get right on it!

Oh look, D3m0 complaining about BT's codex.

What a novel, fresh experience.

 Peregrine wrote:

Anyway, TBH, I hope you fail... since most 40k players have absolutely no clue about how to balance a game properly.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ixe wrote:
Also, fill out this one-question survey stating that you won't buy a Nephilim until its rules are fixed, and offering a suggestion about how you think that should be accomplished.

I wrote in my own option:

Simply give the Blacksword Missiles Target lock, which it had, and make the Blacksword Missiles use the small blast marker.

I suggest others do the same. The vehicle is fine as it is, as long as the missiles get Target lock back, and are made to use the small blast marker

I love this idea, and by that I mean you haven't actually read the rules in combination with this change. What makes the Blacksword missiles distinct is that they DO NOT use the blast template. This means that they can be fired at other flyers. As a previous poster mentioned the Helldrake can't use its template weapon against other flyers and if the BS missiles were blast then they couldn't be used either.

Skyfire removes the Snap Shot restriction. However the main flyer entry states that you cannot fire a weapon that uses template, blast, or large blast against a flyer. This is a separate listing from Snap Shot. Long and short they took away missile lock because it's not appropriate for those missiles, granted with a name like Missile Lock I expect it to be air-to-air, but its not.

I'm fine with the Neph for what that's worth. Oh dear I can't run straight at the flying demon thingy this model is completely useless. If all you care about is playing against the meta run DW with TH/SS and an Aegis line. Then you're as cheesed out as you want to be and the rest of us can enjoy leaving large infantry shaped mush piles on the ground and watching most flyers crash and burn under weight of fire

andystache wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ixe wrote:
Also, fill out this one-question survey stating that you won't buy a Nephilim until its rules are fixed, and offering a suggestion about how you think that should be accomplished.

I wrote in my own option:

Simply give the Blacksword Missiles Target lock, which it had, and make the Blacksword Missiles use the small blast marker.

I suggest others do the same. The vehicle is fine as it is, as long as the missiles get Target lock back, and are made to use the small blast marker

I love this idea, and by that I mean you haven't actually read the rules in combination with this change. What makes the Blacksword missiles distinct is that they DO NOT use the blast template. This means that they can be fired at other flyers. As a previous poster mentioned the Helldrake can't use its template weapon against other flyers and if the BS missiles were blast then they couldn't be used either.

Skyfire removes the Snap Shot restriction. However the main flyer entry states that you cannot fire a weapon that uses template, blast, or large blast against a flyer. This is a separate listing from Snap Shot. Long and short they took away missile lock because it's not appropriate for those missiles, granted with a name like Missile Lock I expect it to be air-to-air, but its not.

I'm fine with the Neph for what that's worth. Oh dear I can't run straight at the flying demon thingy this model is completely useless. If all you care about is playing against the meta run DW with TH/SS and an Aegis line. Then you're as cheesed out as you want to be and the rest of us can enjoy leaving large infantry shaped mush piles on the ground and watching most flyers crash and burn under weight of fire

Amen Brother...

Yes the valk/ven is av12, but anyone who thinks it will stay that way when the new dex drops... Well there kidding themselves, these av12 flyers will go up in cost massively or become av10 like most flyers are now. The really tough flyers are av11, the raven was designed for 5th, had that thing been made for 6th it would be av11

 Formosa wrote:
Yes the valk/ven is av12, but anyone who thinks it will stay that way when the new dex drops... Well there kidding themselves, these av12 flyers will go up in cost massively or become av10 like most flyers are now. The really tough flyers are av11, the raven was designed for 5th, had that thing been made for 6th it would be av11

the raven would just be more expensive with AV12 but I think it will keep it.
The hell turkey also will have AV12
I think the valk vendetta will go down to 11 and have a point increase

 Formosa wrote:
Yes the valk/ven is av12, but anyone who thinks it will stay that way when the new dex drops... Well there kidding themselves

Yeah, Vendettas in the next IG codex will be AV 14/14/14 and the kit will be increased in price to $150.

I don't know what's funnier. The idea that customer service has any sway whatsoever over game design or the idiotic predictions I'm reading.

Lol

 Sasori wrote:
The Heldrake is fine.

Vendettas on the other hand...

I fully expect that the vendetta will see a serious price change in the next IG 'dex...the only real question is how long off is that going to be?

Skriker

 TheCaptain wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
So you got a new codex and a ton of new models but youre still not happy? Sounds like I can call GW and get BT, SoB, and Tau updated by next week!!! Ill get right on it!

Oh look, D3m0 complaining about BT's codex.

What a novel, fresh experience.

Im glad you enjoyed it. As I have a huge amount of time and money invested in the subject I feel the need to voice my opinion from time to time. Thank you for taking time out from your busy schedule to listen to my concerns.

Something in an army sucks. Get over it.

What might be good, however, is the ability to reroll armor penetration rolls (missles only) and being able to fire off all 6 missiles at once. Because then you can fire off all your missles you have a fairly good chance of glancing things to death, and now you got a ground superiority flyer?
I don't know, i never read the rules, it just sounds like a good idea to me.