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Lol at the OP.

And to fix the nephlim don't buy it.

The nameless wrote:
Alot of codexes wish they had a flier to complain about and you're gonna hop up on the soapbox and complain about how your's isn't as effective as it's fluff? If there's a legitamate complaint department at GW about "fluff awesomeness vs. Table top fail" I hope the GW guy answers with "put it in line with the mandrakes, warp talons, pyrovore...(god-emperor only knows what I missed) "

Seriously, you have a new codex with a new flier. Be happy with that. There's alot worse off armies than the D.angels in age/models/points cost etc.

You're complaints seem "first world problems"ish, I'm sorry but that's how I see it.

You have clearly not read the rest of the thread, where I responded to this. First of all, the fact that there are other badly designed books doesn't mean that design mistakes shouldn't be fixed. They should be. People just didn't bother to say anything to GW at the time, and now it's too late for them to make amendments without losing face. Just because you failed to speak up about the crap in your codex doesn't mean I should do the same in mine. The answer to bad design is to let GW know what they need to fix, it is not to attack others who simply want reasonably good rules for the models that GW sells. I want GW to make the model good enough for me to buy it; the army's fine as it is, I'm not saying my book needs to be buffed through the roof, I just want this one failure of a unit to be worth having, because it's cool and because DA lacks decent anti-air fire.

Furthermore, the fact that other codices lack flyers is irrelevant. Those codices are outdated, especially with the seismic changes of 6th ed. Of course they are weak. We don't need to petition GW to update them, because they will. They're working on it as we speak. Just because outdated codices don't have air defense doesn't mean that a brand new codex should lack good air defense, that's a total non sequitur. Is that what you'll say when they release your new book and it sucks? Will you say, "Well, there are other sucky codices out there, so I have no right to complain?" I imagine not. I'm not saying that the DA codex sucks, but you're absolutely wrong in claiming that DA players shouldn't speak up about such an obvious design failure as the Nephilim. The worst that could happen is nothing, so we've got nothing to lose. And fortunately, there's no heckler's veto. You can't shut us up, no matter how hard you try to argue that we should just be quiet.

I probably shouldn't waste my time telling you, that you are wasting your time, but here goes. We have been playing this game since 1st edition, you know virus grenades, assault cannons that sustained fire, plasma cannons in full power mode. Several of my friends were outriders, I was a Ravenwing Scout (that's a whole other GW debacle), one of us was an actual play tester (we all got to do it) and a few of us actually went to England and visited GW. Through the years of working for/with GW here is what we witnessed. Prior to several codexes coming out, we saw play test emails telling the play testers to shut up about bad rules. We saw a guy in the mailroom (yes a mail clerk) get promoted to codex writer. We also saw the play tester, outrider, and ravenwing scout programs all get canned. GW does not give a flying f*ck what you think about their rules, and generally has the attitude if they did it, its awesome and you should shut up and love it. Now that I have wasted my time telling you not to waste your time, hopefully one of us has learned something.

 Peregrine wrote:
Of course, I'd love it if GW learned how to design and balance a game properly, but that's not what we have here. This isn't one step in a comprehensive plan to reform GW's game design methods and balance every army, it's a demand to fix a single unit with a threat to stop buying it if GW doesn't. There's no attempt to serve the greater good of the game, it's just another "make my army powerful" whine, but with a new expensive model's sales at stake. If GW gives in and changes the rules to make sure they don't lose any sales they set a dangerous precedent where anyone who wants a more powerful army just has to whine loud enough and GW will make their new toys more powerful, regardless of what impact it will have on overall game balance.

Nicely put Peregrine. That is exactly what this is. Someone boo hooing over the fact that the fancy new flyer in their new book isn't the awesome toy they want it to be. Plenty of better areas to focus GW to improve design and balance in the game than changing the points cost for a single flyer in one codex.

Skriker

tgf wrote:
I probably shouldn't waste my time telling you, that you are wasting your time, but here goes. We have been playing this game since 1st edition, you know virus grenades, assault cannons that sustained fire, plasma cannons in full power mode. Several of my friends were outriders, I was a Ravenwing Scout (that's a whole other GW debacle), one of us was an actual play tester (we all got to do it) and a few of us actually went to England and visited GW. Through the years of working for/with GW here is what we witnessed. Prior to several codexes coming out, we saw play test emails telling the play testers to shut up about bad rules. We saw a guy in the mailroom (yes a mail clerk) get promoted to codex writer. We also saw the play tester, outrider, and ravenwing scout programs all get canned. GW does not give a flying f*ck what you think about their rules, and generally has the attitude if they did it, its awesome and you should shut up and love it. Now that I have wasted my time telling you not to waste your time, hopefully one of us has learned something.

#1, this is the internet, and people make stuff up like this all the time. For all I know, you're just repeating what you heard fourth hand from someone else, or making the whole thing up. I'm not defending GW, I don't think they're perfect, but I'm not a sucker who believes everything anyone on the internet says. If that's true, publish the e-mails.

Anyway, they've come a long way since then. They used to be incredibly lackadaisical about FAQs, and recently they've started to shape up. They could be in the process of turning over a new leaf. We won't know unless we try. Anyway, why do you play the game of a company you think so little of? Or are you just trolling 40k players because you want them to share some of your bitterness and misery?

 Skriker wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Of course, I'd love it if GW learned how to design and balance a game properly, but that's not what we have here. This isn't one step in a comprehensive plan to reform GW's game design methods and balance every army, it's a demand to fix a single unit with a threat to stop buying it if GW doesn't. There's no attempt to serve the greater good of the game, it's just another "make my army powerful" whine, but with a new expensive model's sales at stake. If GW gives in and changes the rules to make sure they don't lose any sales they set a dangerous precedent where anyone who wants a more powerful army just has to whine loud enough and GW will make their new toys more powerful, regardless of what impact it will have on overall game balance.

Nicely put Peregrine. That is exactly what this is. Someone boo hooing over the fact that the fancy new flyer in their new book isn't the awesome toy they want it to be. Plenty of better areas to focus GW to improve design and balance in the game than changing the points cost for a single flyer in one codex.

Skriker

Sigh. You guys fail to grasp something very simple: change is rarely fast. It starts small. It starts with one thing at a time. If we can push them to fix this unit, then maybe we can do the same for the next, and the next, and the next, until they start to figure out that we, the players, are a valuable resource. We have who knows how many hundreds of thousands of game hours under our belts, and we're a good source for what works and what doesn't.

And here's where I'm really confused: it's not simply that you disagree with me on how to fix the game, it's that you're so RUDE about it. You can't simply say I'm wrong, I have to be "whining" or "boo hooing." Have I insulted you? Did you learn from your mothers that insults are the best way to resolve differences? Or you just figure that it's the internet, I'm not a real person, and you can be as rude as you want to me without being called out?

 Ixe wrote:
Furthermore, the fact that other codices lack flyers is irrelevant. Those codices are outdated, especially with the seismic changes of 6th ed. Of course they are weak. We don't need to petition GW to update them, because they will. They're working on it as we speak.

Just like they will update flyers in due time. The trick is patience. The new DA book is not the first book to be printed with mistakes and it will not be the last, I don't see why it merits backtracking or special treatment, when all in all it's a pretty solid codex bar the few mistakes there are in it.

Also rumour has it there is supposed to be a new flyer supplement coming soon like Crusade of Fire with copies of the rules for flyers (Including the ones we only have in the White Dwarf or pdf scans of that WD.) so we could likely see some correction there if not it will be FAQ'd or some such at some point.

 Ixe wrote:
And here's where I'm really confused: it's not simply that you disagree with me on how to fix the game, it's that you're so RUDE about it. You can't simply say I'm wrong, I have to be "whining" or "boo hooing." Have I insulted you? Did you learn from your mothers that insults are the best way to resolve differences? Or you just figure that it's the internet, I'm not a real person, and you can be as rude as you want to me without being called out?

Sorry Ixe, but I'm not insulting you. You'll just have to get over it. The simple fact is you came in and posted what you did and pretty much told people to keep their opinions to themselves about it after posting it openly in a public forum. You came across as pretty full of yourself from the start, and you keep ignoring the fact that your opinion is only one in this thread and others can say what they will as well and you know waht it doesn't necessarily mean it is even about you anymore.

I did say simply that you were wrong, as did plenty of others and you rudely discounted their opinions and tried to tell them that when you posted you said you didn't want them to begin with, and continue on and on about how the nephilim is just so horrible an item. I might have bought your argument if you stuck with the it is overcosted angle, but no you want the points to drop *and* for the unit to get better. That very clearly speaks to the "the flyer I want to use isn't uber enough, so I want it to be better *and* cheaper" fan boy mentality that many of us really dislike.

Stop acting like a victim, because you aren't one. You just want your flyer to be cooler than it is, but GW doesn't owe you to perfect flyer just because you want it. There are also much more sigificant areas of the rules where you could make *real* impacts on balance and power level through updating faqs to bring some of the more obnoxious power codecies down to size, but instead you really want to up the power curve some more. No thanks.

Skriker

Skriker

 Ixe wrote:


And here's where I'm really confused: it's not simply that you disagree with me on how to fix the game, it's that you're so RUDE about it. You can't simply say I'm wrong, I have to be "whining" or "boo hooing." Have I insulted you? Did you learn from your mothers that insults are the best way to resolve differences? Or you just figure that it's the internet, I'm not a real person, and you can be as rude as you want to me without being called out?

What's with the victimization?

You made a silly thread. You need to be prepared to get called out on that. If you can't handle something like that, you might want to be more tame regarding the subject-matter of future thread posts.

 captain collius wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Griever wrote:

But the Nephilim is just really bad at what it does. It's horrendously overcosted, "tactics" has nothing to do with it. You pay a ton of points for something that shoots like a land speeder.

Perhaps. But it's not a total Mandrake/Mutilator-style brain-fart either. It's alright for some beer-and-pretzel gaming.
There'd be far more urgent things to fix.

Agreed like i said earlier something as small as a +1 stg increase to the missile to make them similar to skyhammers is more than enough

Yes the Nephilim is far from the bottom of the barrel the only difference seems to be that the Neph is IoM SM and their players simply cannot stand to have a single bad unit in their codex.

Hellions, Mandrakes, Bloodbrides, Cronos, Mutilators, Warptalons, Possessed, Thousand Sons all need to be redone to make them decent. What makes the Nephilim so special?

 Exergy wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Griever wrote:

But the Nephilim is just really bad at what it does. It's horrendously overcosted, "tactics" has nothing to do with it. You pay a ton of points for something that shoots like a land speeder.

Perhaps. But it's not a total Mandrake/Mutilator-style brain-fart either. It's alright for some beer-and-pretzel gaming.
There'd be far more urgent things to fix.

Agreed like i said earlier something as small as a +1 stg increase to the missile to make them similar to skyhammers is more than enough

Yes the Nephilim is far from the bottom of the barrel the only difference seems to be that the Neph is IoM SM and their players simply cannot stand to have a single bad unit in their codex.

Hellions, Mandrakes, Bloodbrides, Cronos, Mutilators, Warptalons, Possessed, Thousand Sons all need to be redone to make them decent. What makes the Nephilim so special?

To be fair, the Nephilim is pretty much the bottom of the barrel in terms of fliers in non-forgeworld 40k (I only specify non-forge world because despite my interest forge world is something I have no experience with). Im not sure about the DE fliers (although I hear they are decent), but I would say that only MAYBE the burna-bomma and blitza-bomma are worse. However, I agree with you that there are a TON of things that are worse off, and rather than focusing on single units we should focus on the problems as a whole.

Also, a lot of the things you mentioned aren't even near the bottom of the barrel. Warptalons and Hellions are still better than some of the relics found in the Tau and Eldar codices (if you want to feel better about your army, open the Tau codex to page 42 and read the entry for Aun'Va, the Space Pope)

 Rysaer wrote:
Just like they will update flyers in due time. The trick is patience. The new DA book is not the first book to be printed with mistakes and it will not be the last, I don't see why it merits backtracking or special treatment, when all in all it's a pretty solid codex bar the few mistakes there are in it.

I don't want special treatment, I want all armies to get the same treatment! Just because my campaign is for them to fix this particular book does not mean I'm against fixes for all other armies! I am really getting exhausted repeating that. Is anyone actually reading what I write? I want us to START with one unit at a time, but we should keep up the pressure with ALL sucky units!

RegalPhantom wrote:
To be fair, the Nephilim is pretty much the bottom of the barrel in terms of fliers in non-forgeworld 40k (I only specify non-forge world because despite my interest forge world is something I have no experience with). Im not sure about the DE fliers (although I hear they are decent), but I would say that only MAYBE the burna-bomma and blitza-bomma are worse. However, I agree with you that there are a TON of things that are worse off, and rather than focusing on single units we should focus on the problems as a whole.

Focusing on problems as a whole is NOT a practical solution! GW may consent to fix individual units, but rebalancing entire rules dynamics? Forget about it!

Also rumour has it there is supposed to be a new flyer supplement coming soon like Crusade of Fire with copies of the rules for flyers (Including the ones we only have in the White Dwarf or pdf scans of that WD.) so we could likely see some correction there if not it will be FAQ'd or some such at some point.

Well, that would be cool. I just hope it's not like the Wargear book, intended to fix certain pieces of wargear, but so riddled with typos that nobody accepts it as an official document. It would be nice if they could use that to update all the 5th ed flyers to 6th ed point values (including the Heldrake, which is a 6th ed flyer with 5th ed skimmer point values).

 CaptainGrey wrote:
What's with the victimization?

You made a silly thread. You need to be prepared to get called out on that. If you can't handle something like that, you might want to be more tame regarding the subject-matter of future thread posts.

I've got no problem with being called out. I wouldn't put out my opinion if I didn't want to tolerate dissent. But dissent and rudeness are two separate things. I am not a victim. I am just expressing consternation at how little regard people have for basic civility. Rudeness is simply unnecessary, and it shames the person who expresses it. It's strange to me that people don't realize that their behavior online is public, and they should comport themselves accordingly. Nobody has been truly terrible, but it's this casual rudeness which just serves no purpose.

 Skriker wrote:

 Ixe wrote:
And here's where I'm really confused: it's not simply that you disagree with me on how to fix the game, it's that you're so RUDE about it. You can't simply say I'm wrong, I have to be "whining" or "boo hooing." Have I insulted you? Did you learn from your mothers that insults are the best way to resolve differences? Or you just figure that it's the internet, I'm not a real person, and you can be as rude as you want to me without being called out?

Sorry Ixe, but I'm not insulting you. You'll just have to get over it. The simple fact is you came in and posted what you did and pretty much told people to keep their opinions to themselves about it after posting it openly in a public forum. You came across as pretty full of yourself from the start, and you keep ignoring the fact that your opinion is only one in this thread and others can say what they will as well and you know waht it doesn't necessarily mean it is even about you anymore.

With regard to my original post, to be honest, I was planning on just putting it up there and not responding to anyone about anything. I was going to quit forums and actually get work on my army done. Unfortunately, I can't stay out of a good debate, so I apologize as coming off as abrasive in the very first post. I do find it a little bit amusing though that you're accusing me of acting like a victim, while simulteneously deriding me for ignoring the fact that my opinion isn't the only one in this thread. In other words, I can't act like a victim, but you can, because my mean ol' opinion is trampling all over yours! I'm victimizing you by not just capitulating and admitting you're right! Or do I misread you?

I did say simply that you were wrong, as did plenty of others and you rudely discounted their opinions and tried to tell them that when you posted you said you didn't want them to begin with, and continue on and on about how the nephilim is just so horrible an item. I might have bought your argument if you stuck with the it is overcosted angle, but no you want the points to drop *and* for the unit to get better. That very clearly speaks to the "the flyer I want to use isn't uber enough, so I want it to be better *and* cheaper" fan boy mentality that many of us really dislike.

I'm sorry, I think we're using different definitions of "rude." To me, rude is using derisive, belittling language like "whining," "cyring," and "boo hooing." All of those were used to describe my opinions. That is rude. I did not return the insults, and yet they continued. That isn't right. If you weren't someone who did that, then obviously you don't share in the blame.

But you seem to be saying that I'm rude because, what? I'm arguing too forcefully? Not giving due consideration to opposing viewpoints? That isn't rudeness, it's called debate. I'm not going to waste time writing "in my humble opinion" and "you might not agree, but," because those just weaken my case. I'm not here sing kum ba yah. If you can't handle frank discussion, then that's your issue. It isn't due to any rudeness on my part.

As for me wanting the flyer to be both better and cheaper? That is an absolute straw man. I want it to be fixed. I've proposed several ways it could be fixed, but I'm not set on any particular one--it just needs to be made worth its points. I have never, in any post, advocated for a simultaneous buff and points drop. They could fix the whole flyer by making it 130-140 with no rules change, or they could fix it by keeping the points the game and making Blacksword missiles worthwhile. Or they could have some other solution. I don't want it to be uber, I want it to be worth its points, and that's all. Your characterization of my opinion is flat out false.

Stop acting like a victim, because you aren't one. You just want your flyer to be cooler than it is, but GW doesn't owe you to perfect flyer just because you want it. There are also much more sigificant areas of the rules where you could make *real* impacts on balance and power level through updating faqs to bring some of the more obnoxious power codecies down to size, but instead you really want to up the power curve some more. No thanks.

I'm sorry you think I'm acting like a victim, but that's certainly not my perspective. Nobody on the internet can hurt me with text; they can't suppress my opinion, and they can't prevent me from accomplishing my goal, which I already did: letting GW know my opinion, and getting others to do the same. I can't be victimized by people who have literally zero power over me. I'm just continuing to debate because I care about the ideas I'm espousing--we should take a step-by-step approach to pressuring GW to fix the game, not this pie-in-the-sky idea of demanding that they fix the whole game all at once. I'm also calling out people for being rude to me, not because it hurts me or makes me a victim, but rather because it's bad behavior with no excuse. I figure if I ask people to explain to me why they think it's OK to use insulting and belittling language, maybe they'll realize that they don't have an answer.

Did it occur to you that maybe they will bring other flyers in line with the Nephilim?

The impending flyer supplement may nerf already existing flyers making your DA flyer worthy of the title 'Superiority Fighter' again.

If not i guess you are just going to have to live with it.

I haven't really heard anyone who has actually used either model, especially the OP. Are you assuming its supposed to fly right in the face of another flyer for kill shots? What happened to attacking from behind a plane? Even S6 cracks flyers there...

RegalPhantom wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Griever wrote:

But the Nephilim is just really bad at what it does. It's horrendously overcosted, "tactics" has nothing to do with it. You pay a ton of points for something that shoots like a land speeder.

Perhaps. But it's not a total Mandrake/Mutilator-style brain-fart either. It's alright for some beer-and-pretzel gaming.
There'd be far more urgent things to fix.

Agreed like i said earlier something as small as a +1 stg increase to the missile to make them similar to skyhammers is more than enough

Yes the Nephilim is far from the bottom of the barrel the only difference seems to be that the Neph is IoM SM and their players simply cannot stand to have a single bad unit in their codex.

Hellions, Mandrakes, Bloodbrides, Cronos, Mutilators, Warptalons, Possessed, Thousand Sons all need to be redone to make them decent. What makes the Nephilim so special?

To be fair, the Nephilim is pretty much the bottom of the barrel in terms of fliers in non-forgeworld 40k (I only specify non-forge world because despite my interest forge world is something I have no experience with). Im not sure about the DE fliers (although I hear they are decent), but I would say that only MAYBE the burna-bomma and blitza-bomma are worse. However, I agree with you that there are a TON of things that are worse off, and rather than focusing on single units we should focus on the problems as a whole.

Also, a lot of the things you mentioned aren't even near the bottom of the barrel. Warptalons and Hellions are still better than some of the relics found in the Tau and Eldar codices (if you want to feel better about your army, open the Tau codex to page 42 and read the entry for Aun'Va, the Space Pope)

I was picking bottom of the baren choices from relatively recent codexes. 4th edition stuff will be changed when they get a new codex. Warptalons and Hellions were crap when they came out. The DE flyers arent great. both are 145 points, one is AV11 and has 2 short ranged las cannons that have the lance special rule. The other is AV10 and has 2 dark lances and some anti infantry missiles. They can get a 5++, but that makes them more expensive. Both are 2 HP.

I don't know, I think I'd rather have the Nephilim's Weaponry than what the Stormtalon got. More shots, better anti-infantry stuff.

I guess, on the other hand, when the Assault Cannon hits 6s to pen other flyers, it pens instead of glances.

But, compared to Vendettas (or even Helldrakes), yes, they come up short. But really, all the CSM codex has is Helldrakes, while the Dark Angel Codex is strong as it is.

The best way to deal with flyers as a non-IG Imperial army is to either bring Vendetta allies or get a Quadgun.

Or, if you are Dark Angels/Black Templar/C:SM, bring a Contemptor Mortis, if your area is FW Friendly.

Crazyterran wrote:
Or, if you are Dark Angels/Black Templar/C:SM, bring a Contemptor Mortis, if your area is FW Friendly.

Heh. A Contemptor with CML+TLLC+HF+Augury would be nice for harassing planes and tanks while also keeping close-range and assault capability. But at 260 points, veeery expensive. Not to mention to £54 for the model and its weapons And the fact that I much prefer the look of normal Dreads to Contemptors. And since Contemptors appear to be much taller, counts-as would be kinda taking advantage of that as well.

Just to counter the arguement that CA -NEED- better flyer defence cause they have none.. You have cheap devistators with access to flakk missles, you can add a heavy weapon w/ flakk missles to a 5 man tac squad, and you have the same access to a quad/ lascannon aegis as everyone else. You do not "lack" the capability to deal with flyers.

 Ixe wrote:
I'm sorry you think I'm acting like a victim, but that's certainly not my perspective. Nobody on the internet can hurt me with text; they can't suppress my opinion, and they can't prevent me from accomplishing my goal, which I already did: letting GW know my opinion, and getting others to do the same. I can't be victimized by people who have literally zero power over me. I'm just continuing to debate because I care about the ideas I'm espousing--we should take a step-by-step approach to pressuring GW to fix the game, not this pie-in-the-sky idea of demanding that they fix the whole game all at once. I'm also calling out people for being rude to me, not because it hurts me or makes me a victim, but rather because it's bad behavior with no excuse. I figure if I ask people to explain to me why they think it's OK to use insulting and belittling language, maybe they'll realize that they don't have an answer.

Had a lengthy response here, but really see it as useless to bother, so culling my post myself...


Skriker

I would like to hear from people who have actually used the Nephilim, especially in an anti-flyer role. Is it my understanding that the OP is riding the whaaambulance becuase head-to-head it won't drop a Heldrake? when did S9 have issues with AV12? and do people have so little grasp on air-to-air combat that coming in on the enemy's six o'clock is unheard of?

Again, I want to hear from people who actually used it.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I would like to hear from people who have actually used the Nephilim, especially in an anti-flyer role. Is it my understanding that the OP is riding the whaaambulance becuase head-to-head it won't drop a Heldrake? when did S9 have issues with AV12? and do people have so little grasp on air-to-air combat that coming in on the enemy's six o'clock is unheard of?

Again, I want to hear from people who actually used it.

No takers, eh? I guess the only people not on the whaambulance are people who don't play Dark Angels, i.e. would prefer for the book not to have a good flyer. Those of us who play the army aren't taking the 180 point, single-lascannon bait.

 Kroothawk wrote:
And I thought, the major problem was paying almost double Storm Talon price for 2 only slightly modified sprues.

brilliant. I was wondering if anyone else had noticed that it was basically a storm talon with wings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tvih wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
Given how most armies might have 1 flyer in their force I find a ground attack fighter much more useful in my local meta than an air superiority fighter that has limited usefulness after taking out my opponents single flyer...

Well, to be fair good anti-air tends to be good anti-armor as well. Of course, if the opponent doesn't bring any tanks and such either, then shooting at ork boyz or something might not be optimal

I make this argument when talking about the Vendetta, what good is it when I am facing off against infantry heavy lists, with hull points and first blood many players are not running their light armour anymore and things like Land Raiders are rare. Are their still vehicles on the table sure, but for the most part I have just been wasting lascannon shots on infantry, terminators if I am lucky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ixe wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I would like to hear from people who have actually used the Nephilim, especially in an anti-flyer role. Is it my understanding that the OP is riding the whaaambulance becuase head-to-head it won't drop a Heldrake? when did S9 have issues with AV12? and do people have so little grasp on air-to-air combat that coming in on the enemy's six o'clock is unheard of?

Again, I want to hear from people who actually used it.

No takers, eh? I guess the only people not on the whaambulance are people who don't play Dark Angels, i.e. would prefer for the book not to have a good flyer. Those of us who play the army aren't taking the 180 point, single-lascannon bait.

Since when do Dark Angels worry about flyers? If I want flyers I ally with Guard kinda sucks that the put "primary" into Belial and Azrael's description but whatever I can still take a 2 Vendetta squadron to deal with flyers. Without guard you take deathwing, deathwing, and more deathwing and not the silly Grey Knight wannabees either you take the big beefy bastards with lots of SS/TH and plasma cannons.

Crazyterran wrote:
But really, all the CSM codex has is Helldrakes.

Off topic but this is incorrect in SO many ways.

 Ixe wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I would like to hear from people who have actually used the Nephilim, especially in an anti-flyer role. Is it my understanding that the OP is riding the whaaambulance becuase head-to-head it won't drop a Heldrake? when did S9 have issues with AV12? and do people have so little grasp on air-to-air combat that coming in on the enemy's six o'clock is unheard of?

Again, I want to hear from people who actually used it.

No takers, eh? I guess the only people not on the whaambulance are people who don't play Dark Angels, i.e. would prefer for the book not to have a good flyer. Those of us who play the army aren't taking the 180 point, single-lascannon bait.

I'd rather use it than dedicate over a $100 to start an allied detachment just to play one flyer. Get over yourself. Don't complain that it isn't the AV14 turreted-everything you want it to be and just deal with it.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I would like to hear from people who have actually used the Nephilim, especially in an anti-flyer role. Is it my understanding that the OP is riding the whaaambulance becuase head-to-head it won't drop a Heldrake? when did S9 have issues with AV12? and do people have so little grasp on air-to-air combat that coming in on the enemy's six o'clock is unheard of?

Again, I want to hear from people who actually used it.

I don't play DA, but frankly 40k fliers aren't rocket science. There's no real need to actually use the Nephilim if you've used other flyers and have at least a semi-working brain. Just looking at what it has tells you what you need to know to compare it to other flyers. Like it's not exactly difficult to realize that the S6 AP4 Blacksword missiles are crap compared to the BA Stormraven's S8 AP1 missiles, for example. Can the Blackswords shoot down a flier, even an AV12 one? Sure, but it's going to require a whole lot of luck. As for the TLLC, yes, that can quite easily damage fliers, but it's still only one shot per turn, while all flyers except the Stormtalon have 3 hull points. Against something like a Heldrake that can even regen hull points with some luck it's not quite that great on its own.

As for this coming in on the enemy's six stuff? Heh. Remember this is 40k you're talking about, given the limited maneuverability that's not exactly simple unless the opponent is utterly asleep.

Overall... the Nephilim does seem undergunned for the price, but given that DA seems like a solid codex otherwise it doesn't seem like a big handicap. On the other hand, we don't know how the prices for pre-6th flyers will change once the relevant codices get updated. For now we only really have the Heldrake to compare to for "up to date" flyers.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Ixe wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I would like to hear from people who have actually used the Nephilim, especially in an anti-flyer role. Is it my understanding that the OP is riding the whaaambulance becuase head-to-head it won't drop a Heldrake? when did S9 have issues with AV12? and do people have so little grasp on air-to-air combat that coming in on the enemy's six o'clock is unheard of?

Again, I want to hear from people who actually used it.

No takers, eh? I guess the only people not on the whaambulance are people who don't play Dark Angels, i.e. would prefer for the book not to have a good flyer. Those of us who play the army aren't taking the 180 point, single-lascannon bait.

I'd rather use it than dedicate over a $100 to start an allied detachment just to play one flyer. Get over yourself. Don't complain that it isn't the AV14 turreted-everything you want it to be and just deal with it.

Don't accuse me of saying things I haven't said. I have said the opposite, numerous times, but you're not paying attention. I think it needs to be fixed, but I DON'T want it to be uber. An underpointed unit is just as bad an example of rules design as an overpointed one. So how about don't butt in when you don't know what's already been said?

You're telling me to shut up and buy a bad model with my own hard-earned money, even if I judge that its rules are inadequate for both its points and dollar cost. You're telling me that I'm not allowed to have an opinion about the value of the model on the battlefield, I just have to kiss up to GW and buy whatever they want to sell me. You're telling me to reward GW for doing a poor job of rules design. None of those things are gonna happen, bud. And you're wasting your time by trying to tell me what to do. You might have success in convincing me, but just dictating? Are you serious?

No, I believe that he is saying if you think that it is too expensive, either in cash terms or point terms for what you want it to do (rather than what it does), don't field it.

There is plenty of stuff in the Eldar, BA and CSM codexes that I think is too expensive points wise, has fugly models, or is too expensive. As a result I don't use it and/or don't buy it.

Vote with your wallet, as you suggested to do in the OP. Don't whine about the model and say "I'm not going to buy X unless you make the rules do Y". That just comes across as you feeling your shiny new codex and model should be the bestest and most powerful. The DA codex has, I presume, plenty of power. It would actually be nice to see an end to codex creep and I hope we are seeing the start of this by making this particular flier good at one thing and OK at another, rather than super awesome at everything and costing less in points, which seems to be what you actually want.

You may be right Silver, and I apologize Solo if I'm reading more into your words than you intend.

Yes, I intend to vote with my wallet. But that isn't mutually exclusive to me voting with my voice. There's no reason, none whatsoever, that I shouldn't do both, other than that it may attract haters. But as I think I've demonstrated, I'm not afraid of controversy. My goal is to encourage people to communicate with GW and let them know what you think. If we don't, they're just going to assume everything is hunky dory and they don't need to do a better job of rules design.

Even the people who are arguing with me agree that they have many serious, repeated rules design failures. So instead of arguing that I shouldn't try to change that, why don't you jump on board and help me? You don't have to agree that the Nephilim should be fixed, but make your voice heard!

Um... Having now used the nephilim in 30 + games I got to say.... What's wrong with it? Sure it's crap at its labeled job, but you know what? It's great at killing and stopping transports.

I think you hit the nail on the head, Formosa. We don't really need another unit for killing and stopping transports. There's lot of other ways to do that. "Its labeled job" just so happens to be the job where the only other weapon we can use is flakk missiles.