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It appears that GW while not being great at game design balance or testing is learning from its community.

The new DA codex is an example of that. We all know certain items were more cost effective than other and thus they got played more. For instance TH&SS terminators were bar none the most effective terminators and in the DA codex they got a 5 point increase.

Razor spam has been a long time problem on the tournament scene. The basic DA razor back now costs more than a GK razorback with psybolt ammo and enjoys neither fortitude nor S6 heavy bolters. (I don't expect to see any DA razorbacks).

The DA Planes are stupidly expensive when you consider you can ally and get a storm raven for 25 points more with much better guns, armor and transport capacity, or get a vendetta/valkyrie for less both bringing better armor, more firepower and transport capacity.

Vindicators got a cost increase as well, does this reflect their improved ability with the change to ordnance vs. vehicles?

On the flip side you are seeing them adjust costs down on models that were over priced.

Librarians are a steal in the DA dex, almost too cheap for what they do. A DA librarian costs 5 points less than a Primaris Psyker and brings a hell of a lot more to the table.

The DA chaplains are not only cheaper but have the much better hatred vs. litanies.

I guess the question I am asking is, will we see a large update like we did a few years back that brought all the codex closer in line with each other or is this just representative of how the DA roll? Cheap HQ and expensive vehicles?

The razorback is a poor example; the base cost was increased, but they still cost the same when given nearly any of the weapon upgrades. And let's face it, razorspam wasn't effective with plain razors, it was effective with las/plas razorbacks, which cost the same.

 Blacksails wrote:
The razorback is a poor example; the base cost was increased, but they still cost the same when given nearly any of the weapon upgrades. And let's face it, razorspam wasn't effective with plain razors, it was effective with las/plas razorbacks, which cost the same.

The predator is the same way, and most razorspam lists were GK, not upgraded razorbacks.

Imperial guard armies are bodies and tanks so a primaris psyker should be more expensive in a mass of bodies and tank army.

Just look at heavy bolters vs big shootas; big shootas are assault 3. Heavy bolters are heavy 3. Big shootas are better and should cost more? Nooooo! Typically heavy bolters cost 10 points in marine/CSM/IG armies. Big shootas typically cost 5pts because orks have loads of them but can not hit a barn from the inside.

There is nothing wrong with a few points differences between the same bits of kit in different armies. That said the 6th ed is a big shake up and will keep everyone on their toes unti a handful of the old codexes are revised.

 Jasper wrote:
Just look at heavy bolters vs big shootas; big shootas are assault 3. Heavy bolters are heavy 3. Big shootas are better and should cost more? Nooooo! Typically heavy bolters cost 10 points in marine/CSM/IG armies. Big shootas typically cost 5pts because orks have loads of them but can not hit a barn from the inside.

HB's are also ap4---BS's are ap5.
And HB's are actually free in a vanilla marine army btw

tgf wrote:
It appears that GW while not being great at game design balance or testing is learning from its community.

The new DA codex is an example of that. We all know certain items were more cost effective than other and thus they got played more. For instance TH&SS terminators were bar none the most effective terminators and in the DA codex they got a 5 point increase.

Razor spam has been a long time problem on the tournament scene. The basic DA razor back now costs more than a GK razorback with psybolt ammo and enjoys neither fortitude nor S6 heavy bolters. (I don't expect to see any DA razorbacks).

The DA Planes are stupidly expensive when you consider you can ally and get a storm raven for 25 points more with much better guns, armor and transport capacity, or get a vendetta/valkyrie for less both bringing better armor, more firepower and transport capacity.

Vindicators got a cost increase as well, does this reflect their improved ability with the change to ordnance vs. vehicles?

On the flip side you are seeing them adjust costs down on models that were over priced.

Librarians are a steal in the DA dex, almost too cheap for what they do. A DA librarian costs 5 points less than a Primaris Psyker and brings a hell of a lot more to the table.

The DA chaplains are not only cheaper but have the much better hatred vs. litanies.

I guess the question I am asking is, will we see a large update like we did a few years back that brought all the codex closer in line with each other or is this just representative of how the DA roll? Cheap HQ and expensive vehicles?

5th to 6th changes the point standards of things.
DA planes are worse compare to SR or Vendettas because they were cost as skimmers, they basically got the flyer rule for free when 6th comes around. (Though the Vendetta was undercosted even before it was flyer)
We'd assume that Libby, Chaps, Razors and Vindi of other SM chapters will have similar point cost when they are updated.

The real problem is GW doesnt update all their factions at the same time like PP, so we have inconsistencies all over the place for long periods of time.
Hell, if they just tell Ward, Cruddace, Kelly and Vetock to each do one codex at the same time, the point balance would be drastically improved.

I wouldn't read too much into cost changes, most of them are likely purely for their own sake. Vehicle utility changed massively in 6th, mostly for the worse, and vehicles remained largely where they were in terms of cost with only minor changes in cost if they changed at all. The other changes are generally part of the constantly downward trend on unit costs since 3rd edition.

 Jackster wrote:

tgf wrote:
It appears that GW while not being great at game design balance or testing is learning from its community.

The new DA codex is an example of that. We all know certain items were more cost effective than other and thus they got played more. For instance TH&SS terminators were bar none the most effective terminators and in the DA codex they got a 5 point increase.

Razor spam has been a long time problem on the tournament scene. The basic DA razor back now costs more than a GK razorback with psybolt ammo and enjoys neither fortitude nor S6 heavy bolters. (I don't expect to see any DA razorbacks).

The DA Planes are stupidly expensive when you consider you can ally and get a storm raven for 25 points more with much better guns, armor and transport capacity, or get a vendetta/valkyrie for less both bringing better armor, more firepower and transport capacity.

Vindicators got a cost increase as well, does this reflect their improved ability with the change to ordnance vs. vehicles?

On the flip side you are seeing them adjust costs down on models that were over priced.

Librarians are a steal in the DA dex, almost too cheap for what they do. A DA librarian costs 5 points less than a Primaris Psyker and brings a hell of a lot more to the table.

The DA chaplains are not only cheaper but have the much better hatred vs. litanies.

I guess the question I am asking is, will we see a large update like we did a few years back that brought all the codex closer in line with each other or is this just representative of how the DA roll? Cheap HQ and expensive vehicles?

5th to 6th changes the point standards of things.
DA planes are worse compare to SR or Vendettas because they were cost as skimmers, they basically got the flyer rule for free when 6th comes around. (Though the Vendetta was undercosted even before it was flyer)
We'd assume that Libby, Chaps, Razors and Vindi of other SM chapters will have similar point cost when they are updated.

The real problem is GW doesnt update all their factions at the same time like PP, so we have inconsistencies all over the place for long periods of time.
Hell, if they just tell Ward, Cruddace, Kelly and Vetock to each do a book at a time, the point balance would be drastically improved.

Exactly I think I was playing my DW for 2 years with 4+ SS and my apothecary ignoring the first failed shooting save after C:SM came out.

I don't think it is always fair to compare the costs of upgrades between two different armies, and the comparison gets less valid the more different the armies are. If you want to compare, say, Assault Terminators between Codex marines and variant marines, you might have a case, but when you start trying to compare Big Shootas to Heavy Bolters, I think you miss out on part of the equation. The points cost alone doesn't reflect the unit/model that is being upgraded. Giving a Str 8, AP 2 weapon to a model with multiple wounds, a high ballistic skill, and/or a big armor save is better than giving it to a much weaker model. Upgrades to a single Space Marine are going to go farther than upgrades to a single ork, on average.

I think that it's misleading to compare Codexes in a vacuum. They have to be compared in context, if at all.

That's just my opinion, of course. It certainly makes me a happier gamer.

And, as a personal side note, I think that Games Workshop is GREAT at game balance and design. If I didn't, I wouldn't be playing their games.

I friend of mine and me came with another theory, Subtle Army List Manipulation. Some units are made more expensive or cheaper to nudge you into creating a more “Fluffy” without forcing unwanted rules at you.
Look at Space Wolves, what’s cheep, Grey Hunters, Wolf Guard Terminators and Long Fangs. This encourages people to play more ground pounding list than mechanized list. Also the Cheep Wolf Guard Terminators armed with “Power Weapons, now they are not fielding Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Armies like everyone else. Long Fangs were made really good to once more make them more of a foot list.

So with DA they want you to spam librarians, devastators and min/maxed tactical squads.

Vindicator stayed the same price as it was in the previous DA Codex. Nothing says it has to be exactly the same price as C:SM regardless of possibly improved ability. I wouldn't wager on improved ability being the reason it stayed at 125, anyway.

I hope C:SM won't inherit the stock Razorback cost increase, though. Given the nutty price Templars pay for Razorbacks, I was finally happy to be able to play cheap Heavy Bolter Razorbacks with C:SM. The last thing I need is for that to be taken away again. For Templars even 70->55 would of course be an improvement, but still, the price hike just seems to make the HB not that good of a choice compared other things you can pick.

The new Chaplains are indeed better since you get rerolls even if assault, so thus can't wait until Templars get theirs.

it doesnt mean anything unless they grow the balls to go in and start FAQing the older books back into line - nerfing/buffing them accordingly.

They never have and they won't start now.

Luide wrote:
They never have and they won't start now.

Actually they did somewhat do such a thing (Halfway through fifth edition) changing DA and BT's wargear to be in line with C:SM.

They don't do actual nerfs or buffs.