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hachieman2000 wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:
A few years back I won round 2 of "ard boyz with Infernal Gateway. My opponent foolishly stacked Archaen in a unit of 18ish Chaos knights. His only other unit was a block of like 20 trolls with the troll king. He charged across the board with his knights and on round 2 I rolled the magic "11"" and sent his General, BSB and only unit with a sttndard to the Chaos Wastes. One spell, with one roll of the dice netted me a 3000 point army from GW. But Tzeentch is fickle and I haven't repeated that since.

I wouldn't say I foolishly stacked him in a bunker of 18 chaos knights. That list when through 5 lists, to include 2 high elves Teclis list that were heavy on the magic, and it wasn't easy. Not much i could do, you IF the spell on 4 dice and got off the 11 on the unit. Its a risk people take with all those points in one unit. Id say it was foolish for you to pull your wizard out of his bunker into my knight bus' front arc and hope that spell wiped that unit, at risk of losing your Lvl4. Or id say you were foolish for running around the store hooting and hollering about how a "balanced list" won that game, when it was just classic gateway spam.

I have no issues losing that game, just your poor sportsmanship about it was really the only downside to the game. Just don't knock my list for losing to something i couldn't stop. And please don't confuse your gateway spam for good tactics, because those days are over. Ive been winning alot of games using the same tactics from before with this new book. Hope you can say the same.

That being said i had a good time at that tourney, and to be honest, i rather you win it then the Bretonians guy who was cheating or the skaven dude with a cardboard tower (fedex roll) and 100 ballpoint pen windows drawn on it. He had a pile of skaven bits glued in a huge pile of cotton calling it a block of 100 slaves. when it was just a pile of cotton, glue and bits with no form that he couldn't pull apart. If i could trampoline you past them then it was a win for me.

Bazinga!

I fail to see how the TO could honestly accept the Skaven player. It's one thing if you couldn't finish that last model of your unit for a tournament and it looks rather unfinished, but proxying stuff (very poorly on top of that!) for a lame, cheesy list is in no way fitting to a competitive tournament - then again, unrestricted tournaments in WHFB are a bad idea to begin with. Gateway spam never was a sportmanship-like tactic anyway, I always gave people with such lists 0 sportsmanship points.

On the other hand, that huge unit of extremely strong models can hardly be beaten in melee, but must either be tarpitted or be quickly annihilated - and magic is the only reliable way to do so. Still, I am so happy Gateway got changed - nobody should lose a match because of 100% luck.

Bazinga!

I fail to see how the TO could honestly accept the Skaven player. It's one thing if you couldn't finish that last model of your unit for a tournament and it looks rather unfinished, but proxying stuff (very poorly on top of that!) for a lame, cheesy list is in no way fitting to a competitive tournament - then again, unrestricted tournaments in WHFB are a bad idea to begin with. Gateway spam never was a sportmanship-like tactic anyway, I always gave people with such lists 0 sportsmanship points.

On the other hand, that huge unit of extremely strong models can hardly be beaten in melee, but must either be tarpitted or be quickly annihilated - and magic is the only reliable way to do so. Still, I am so happy Gateway got changed - nobody should lose a match because of 100% luck.

I agree the skaven guy shouldn't of been allowed to use a most of that crap. And i also agree that magic is the most effective way to kill units like that, Orkams mind razor for one was my scariest threat. But that being said, i dont think the spells are too over powered because alot of the time you risk miscasting the scary ones.

hachieman2000 wrote:

Bazinga!

I fail to see how the TO could honestly accept the Skaven player. It's one thing if you couldn't finish that last model of your unit for a tournament and it looks rather unfinished, but proxying stuff (very poorly on top of that!) for a lame, cheesy list is in no way fitting to a competitive tournament - then again, unrestricted tournaments in WHFB are a bad idea to begin with. Gateway spam never was a sportmanship-like tactic anyway, I always gave people with such lists 0 sportsmanship points.

On the other hand, that huge unit of extremely strong models can hardly be beaten in melee, but must either be tarpitted or be quickly annihilated - and magic is the only reliable way to do so. Still, I am so happy Gateway got changed - nobody should lose a match because of 100% luck.

I agree the skaven guy shouldn't of been allowed to use a most of that crap. And i also agree that magic is the most effective way to kill units like that, Orkams mind razor for one was my scariest threat. But that being said, i dont think the spells are too over powered because alot of the time you risk miscasting the scary ones.

I think anyone who has ever played against a 7th edition Chaos army book list has been on the wrong side of a gateway. I played against my friend and had an epic game wherein he used gateway and sent my about 700 pt 40 plague monk with furnace and plague priest block into the ether. Of course in the final magic phase of the game i Got Dreaded 13th off on his Chaos Warrior block of tzeentch. rolled a 17 on 4d6 he had 16 guys. game ended in a tie.

 bigyounk wrote:
A few years back I won round 2 of "ard boyz with Infernal Gateway. My opponent foolishly stacked Archaen in a unit of 18ish Chaos knights. His only other unit was a block of like 20 trolls with the troll king. He charged across the board with his knights and on round 2 I rolled the magic "11"" and sent his General, BSB and only unit with a sttndard to the Chaos Wastes. One spell, with one roll of the dice netted me a 3000 point army from GW. But Tzeentch is fickle and I haven't repeated that since.

Oh man! Great job! I hate fighting dou*** lists like this, I mean, 18 Knights, Archeon, and 20 trolls with trogg! I have been gatewayed before, it always sucks but it is apart of the game, but at least you weren't has foolish as this guy only having 2 units to support himself through a 3k game. I mean, really, no room to complain. I would have been dancing around with joy to see one of those blocks get sucked down a hole.

Worse thing I had happen to me is when I had withering casted on my lizardmen then followed by dwellers. It wasn't just one spell but it utterly destroyed my army.

This thread is getting awesome.

Nice first post ABDanger!

18 Knights, Archeon, Throgg and 20 trolls! That sounds so foolish it hurts my placenta!

hachieman2000 wrote:

Bazinga!

I fail to see how the TO could honestly accept the Skaven player. It's one thing if you couldn't finish that last model of your unit for a tournament and it looks rather unfinished, but proxying stuff (very poorly on top of that!) for a lame, cheesy list is in no way fitting to a competitive tournament - then again, unrestricted tournaments in WHFB are a bad idea to begin with. Gateway spam never was a sportmanship-like tactic anyway, I always gave people with such lists 0 sportsmanship points.

On the other hand, that huge unit of extremely strong models can hardly be beaten in melee, but must either be tarpitted or be quickly annihilated - and magic is the only reliable way to do so. Still, I am so happy Gateway got changed - nobody should lose a match because of 100% luck.

I agree the skaven guy shouldn't of been allowed to use a most of that crap. And i also agree that magic is the most effective way to kill units like that, Orkams mind razor for one was my scariest threat. But that being said, i dont think the spells are too over powered because alot of the time you risk miscasting the scary ones.

Sounds like someone got the gateway crutch out and used it as a weapon. Being a WoC player myself I have used it time to time myself, but if I sink half my opponents army down a hole I really don't count it as anything to brag about. If I lead his knight block away with petty units and then killed trogg to let the trolls wonder around like the dummies they are, then I would consider myself a hero.

Also, I would have flipped the table on someone who fielded an army of skaven that were cotton balls. What is he going to do, get mad that I hurt his models? Seriously, I know people have a price with the game but if you are going to play, play it with real models. I don't want imagine what 100 slaves in a fed ex tower would look like.

 Red_Zeke wrote:
This thread is getting awesome.

Nice first post ABDanger!

Thanks! I normally don't get on forums but when I saw this guy complaining that he lost due to gateway when he had those two death stars it just made me go hulk angry.

Has anyone had Final Transmuation kill them off with terrible rolls? You just roll 5's and 6's and that's all you can roll and then you just feel sad inside.

ABDanger wrote:

 Red_Zeke wrote:
This thread is getting awesome.

Nice first post ABDanger!

Thanks! I normally don't get on forums but when I saw this guy complaining that he lost due to gateway when he had those two death stars it just made me go hulk angry.

Has anyone had Final Transmuation kill them off with terrible rolls? You just roll 5's and 6's and that's all you can roll and then you just feel sad inside.

Yes I sure did bring 2 deathstars, its ard boyz and every one brought no comp cheese. I'm not complaining I lost, I just dont see how I'm foolish for putting archeon in a Knight bus for protection. So go hulk angry, It doesn't bother me. I'm just frowning on bad sportsman ship and crutch spells.

ABDanger wrote:

 Red_Zeke wrote:
This thread is getting awesome.

Nice first post ABDanger!

Thanks! I normally don't get on forums but when I saw this guy complaining that he lost due to gateway when he had those two death stars it just made me go hulk angry.

Has anyone had Final Transmuation kill them off with terrible rolls? You just roll 5's and 6's and that's all you can roll and then you just feel sad inside.

Dude, no comp. Death stars were everywhere. This is the very core of this thread, one spell wins a gave vs people having to actually fight other units. Really if you are counting your wins by how many times you can sink a unit it is kinda sad. I think its fine to put archeon and trogg in respective blocks how else are you supposed to do it?

Gyar wrote:

ABDanger wrote:

 Red_Zeke wrote:
This thread is getting awesome.

Nice first post ABDanger!

Thanks! I normally don't get on forums but when I saw this guy complaining that he lost due to gateway when he had those two death stars it just made me go hulk angry.

Has anyone had Final Transmuation kill them off with terrible rolls? You just roll 5's and 6's and that's all you can roll and then you just feel sad inside.

Dude, no comp. Death stars were everywhere. This is the very core of this thread, one spell wins a gave vs people having to actually fight other units. Really if you are counting your wins by how many times you can sink a unit it is kinda sad. I think its fine to put archeon and trogg in respective blocks how else are you supposed to do it?

I think it's less about them being in blocks and more about them being the ONLY two units in the list.

Just saying.

Stoupe wrote:

Gyar wrote:

ABDanger wrote:

 Red_Zeke wrote:
This thread is getting awesome.

Nice first post ABDanger!

Thanks! I normally don't get on forums but when I saw this guy complaining that he lost due to gateway when he had those two death stars it just made me go hulk angry.

Has anyone had Final Transmuation kill them off with terrible rolls? You just roll 5's and 6's and that's all you can roll and then you just feel sad inside.

Dude, no comp. Death stars were everywhere. This is the very core of this thread, one spell wins a gave vs people having to actually fight other units. Really if you are counting your wins by how many times you can sink a unit it is kinda sad. I think its fine to put archeon and trogg in respective blocks how else are you supposed to do it?

I think it's less about them being in blocks and more about them being the ONLY two units in the list.

Just saying.

Hey when your fighting for a 3000pt army at ard boyz, your right I'm gonna bring the cheese, everyone else is. All the other regular tourneys I'm just in it for roadtrips and beer. Oh I also had a warshrine.

Personally, I think every army that plays skaven should have dwellers for a free upgrade. That way if you get 13th, you can auto return the favor.

Had one game where I was dwellered via a slann. My leaders rolled a 2 and live and in returned pitted the slann and most of the unit off the board, Thus the reasoning behind having dwellers as a free upgrade vs 13th.

Do unto others.....

6x lions chariots are from the HE dex which we are allowed to take.

I have not seen this subject in awhile,, good to read up on all the views.

13th is guaranteed to be removed or drastically changed whenever they get a new codex anyway - trend is to let instagib threads disappear (for good).

And really, a spell that can only go of with IF is stupid to begin with.

 Sigvatr wrote:


And really, a spell that can only go of with IF is stupid to begin with.

I think this gets overstated a bit, 13th needs a 25 to cast which is exactly average on a 6 dice casting. Something that you will cast with average dice isn't really something that needs IF to go off.

8th Edition WHFB is like a mile long see-saw balanced with a herd of elephants at each end.

What I mean by that is that it's a balance of extremes. There are two things which are very strong in this edition and that is Large Units and Magic. Large Units, thanks to Steadfast, Horde and other such stuff are very hard to crack by conventional means and can take on most things, even big scary monsters. Everything except "Sixth Spells" which can potentially remove a large proportion of that unit in a single cast. So, you can take Large Units, giving yourself an advantage, but then run the risk of losing hundreds of points in a single cast. Risk vs Reward. It's balanced. By the same token, if you load out on tons of powerful magic users, that's less space for the aforementioned massive units, so you're losing an advantage there. A large part of the game is finding the balance between these things that works for your playstyle and your army.

I used to run a Wood Elf army and being an underpowered book to begin with often struggled against most armies, especially out of the newer books and their magic. In my opinion magic is ridiculously overpowered and if designed right can break or make a game for you.

What ended fantasy for me (besides the steadfast rule) was when an opponents Slann wiped out my entire army basically single handed in two turns. I promptly sold my 3000pt. army and went head first into 40k. The results have been much better as 40k is definitely much more balanced.

 gmaleron wrote:
40k is definitely much more balanced.

Lol, no.

 Tangent wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
40k is definitely much more balanced.

Lol, no.

Seconded.

I don't know if its more balanced but for me:

Its much much more fun.

Its scenarios/misisons are much better suited to a more tactical play beyond one shot units / super spells and precise angles of movement (which is ultra dull for me).

I often find that there is more opportunity for small units to actually do soemthing other than during deployment.

At least it paved the way for premeasuring in 40k which is only a good thing in both games.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Tangent wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
40k is definitely much more balanced.

Lol, no.

Seconded.

Thirded.

I feel the way 6th has been going might actually fix it up a bit however, so long as they keep the power balance of current codex going right. (Just like 8th fantasy)

I laugh at people complaining about Teclis you moan about his op IF casts. Try playing a mono khorne army with no wizards. The Key is to taking units big enough that you can take some casulties and keep on ticking. For example I had to play against a goblin player at 1k points I took 12 chaos warriors with additional hand weapons khorne and full command x2 chaos lord with sield Mark of Khorn 5 chaos knights full command MoK. Bear in mind I had less points than him and I curb stomped his goblin army into the ground 9he had a level 4 and 2 level 2s). His magic wasnt even that scary.
On another note I also play Dark Elves and some times I use lore of shadow and tbh I prefere to use the withering + enfeebling foe + miasma as its much more efective than Mindrazor.

Captaintyrius wrote:
I laugh at people complaining about Teclis you moan about his op IF casts. Try playing a mono khorne army with no wizards. The Key is to taking units big enough that you can take some casulties and keep on ticking. For example I had to play against a goblin player at 1k points I took 12 chaos warriors with additional hand weapons khorne and full command x2 chaos lord with sield Mark of Khorn 5 chaos knights full command MoK. Bear in mind I had less points than him and I curb stomped his goblin army into the ground 9he had a level 4 and 2 level 2s). His magic wasnt even that scary.
On another note I also play Dark Elves and some times I use lore of shadow and tbh I prefere to use the withering + enfeebling foe + miasma as its much more efective than Mindrazor.

a) You played against one of the weakest lists aka Goblins - and a seemingly new / not good player. 12 Chaos Warriors cannot do anything against a proper Goblin list at 1k points - Doom Divers / Mangler Squigs / Fanatics make short work of them.

b) Taking a lvl 4 Goblin Shaman and 2 level 2 is the biggest waste of points I can possibly imagine. I am pretty sure you confused the list though and he did not really field those shamans. A lvl 4 and a lvl 2 Goblin means that you got all spells of the Little Waaagh! covered and the remaining level 2 only has the signature spell (as no spell may be taken twice in the same army and Goblins can only choose the Little Waaagh!).

c) The Little Waaagh! has little to no offensive spells, it mostly is a supportive lore with a lot of hexes / buffs.

d) "withering + enfeebling foe + miasma" might be more effective, but that's 3 spells. You will never get all of these off in a proper game unless you roll IF for all 3 of them.

e) I could easily win vs. your list without any magic at 1k

So, I don't want to offend you. It just seems that you don't have as much experience as other players. That's why made these points - your example isn't a proof for the (in)effectiveness of magic

1) Mangler squaigs and fanatics are really not a problem for M\ono Khorne WoC its called running quite a few ten man units of Marauders and 5 man of war hounds just so that I can take care of said things. 12 chaos warriors with Khorne and Adhw will do more than you think. His level 4 had the sig spell and 3 spells one of his level 2s took the sig spell and one other spell and the other level 2 took both spells. Yes I will get all 3 of those spells off clearly uve never heard of a Dark Elf Magic Item called the Sacrifical Dagger or the Dark Star cloak. I can quite easily get them off because guess what I generally cast after casting one of them? Power of Darkness, its such a under rated spell that its unreal. Try taking my list on at 1k and watch as your goblins fall to my Juggerknights. Difference is in a goblin list only fanatics and mangelers + pump wagons and bolt throwers can crack my armour yet I should be in combat by turn 2 or turn 3 at the latest. Overall if you play against someone who knows how to use a Mono Khorne army effectively theres very little which it fears. Btw I was taught by my friend who plays both Mono Khorne Warriors and Mono Khorne Daemons. While the internet says full Khorne isnt viable that is true in some cases but in most it isnt. Frenzy isnt such a issue as people make it out to be

Small, costly and highly armored units are the smallest danger to any Goblin player. Spear Chukkaz, Doom Divers and Mangler / Fanatics tear them apart. A unit of Chaos Knights usually dies in turn 1 or 2 as a single Doom Diver hit takes them out of the game.

You will never make it into melee in turn 2 given that you can deploy at a distance of max. 12'', then move max. 8'' per turn with your infantry - which will be the main part of your army unless you take fast cavalry. Heavy cavalry will never make it to the enemy in time.

Then there's the tarpit issue: 12 AHW Warriors cannot do anything vs. a unit of 50 Goblins. First of all, let's assume you're having a good day and 9 Chaos Warriors make it into melee range and the enemy did not take any fanatics:

9 Chaos Warriors strike first, that's 6 models in base contact, thus 24+3 = 27 attacks. They hit at 3s, thus 18 hits. They strike with S3 (nets) and thus wound at 4+ => ~9 wounds caused. Goblins get a 6+ armor and the 6+ ward save, thus all in all, we're looking at ~7 dead Goblins.

The Goblins strike back, that's 10 attacks, hit with 4s, thus 5 hits, wound with 4s, thus ~2.5 wounds, 4+ armor save, thus ~1 dead Chaos Warrior.

Goblins lose the fight by ~5, thus test at re-rollable LD 8. 43 Goblins remaining that will most likely tarpit the entire unit of Chaos Warriors until the rest of the game.

Realistically, you will make it into melee with ~6 Chaos Warriors aka one rank. Similar results. No magic, champs etc. involved in the math, just the normal combat units.

Not to mention the other big unit of Goblins and Wolf Chariots / Wolf Riders, Squigs Hordes etc.

MSU Marauder units are really vulnerable though and flanking is hardly possible. They now cost as much as e.g. 2 Goblin Wolf Chariots - that make short work of them

I got 2 Chaos players at the place I play and both are the easiest enemy I can get matched up. Goblins are very effective against those armies especially now that you cannot spam Marauders anymore (1 Marauder now being as expensive as 3 Goblins).

And when we're talking about actual game sizes, Mono Khorne at ~2.5k points is likely to be an auto-lose against most armies. Your enemy gets a static +8 (!) to all casting attempts (+4 for lvl 4 casting and you get +0 for not having a wizard to dispel) compared to normal lists. Any current tournament army would have a field day vs. a Mono Khorne list and chow through it at ease. Even Dwellers kill 50% of a Chaos Warrior unit per cast and against Teclis, he'll laugh and pick Lore of Metal to table you by turn 3

Captaintyrius wrote:
I laugh at people complaining about Teclis you moan about his op IF casts. Try playing a mono khorne army with no wizards. The Key is to taking units big enough that you can take some casulties and keep on ticking. For example I had to play against a goblin player at 1k points I took 12 chaos warriors with additional hand weapons khorne and full command x2 chaos lord with sield Mark of Khorn 5 chaos knights full command MoK. Bear in mind I had less points than him and I curb stomped his goblin army into the ground 9he had a level 4 and 2 level 2s). His magic wasnt even that scary.
On another note I also play Dark Elves and some times I use lore of shadow and tbh I prefere to use the withering + enfeebling foe + miasma as its much more efective than Mindrazor.

I like how you laugh at people who complain about Teclis, then proceed to use an example where you beat a horribly weak list that doesn't even have access to Teclis.

Teclis is a hard counter to WoC. He gets to pick his spells before the game and thus chooses Lore of Metal - that's it pretty much for your army.

 Sigvatr wrote:

And when we're talking about actual game sizes, Mono Khorne at ~2.5k points is likely to be an auto-lose against most armies. Your enemy gets a static +8 (!) to all casting attempts (+4 for lvl 4 casting and you get +0 for not having a wizard to dispel) compared to normal lists. Any current tournament army would have a field day vs. a Mono Khorne list and chow through it at ease. Even Dwellers kill 50% of a Chaos Warrior unit per cast and against Teclis, he'll laugh and pick Lore of Metal to table you by turn 3

Not that I'm disagreeing with the general point, but where are you getting +8? In a 'normal' list of a level 4 facing a level 4, they come out even (+4 vs +4). In this case it's +4 more (+4 vs +0).

I'm also genuinely curious what parts of WoC you think might give you trouble. I'd like to know what to consider for my own lists.

 Evertras wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

And when we're talking about actual game sizes, Mono Khorne at ~2.5k points is likely to be an auto-lose against most armies. Your enemy gets a static +8 (!) to all casting attempts (+4 for lvl 4 casting and you get +0 for not having a wizard to dispel) compared to normal lists. Any current tournament army would have a field day vs. a Mono Khorne list and chow through it at ease. Even Dwellers kill 50% of a Chaos Warrior unit per cast and against Teclis, he'll laugh and pick Lore of Metal to table you by turn 3

Not that I'm disagreeing with the general point, but where are you getting +8? In a 'normal' list of a level 4 facing a level 4, they come out even (+4 vs +4). In this case it's +4 more (+4 vs +0).

I'm also genuinely curious what parts of WoC you think might give you trouble. I'd like to know what to consider for my own lists.

Point 1: I'm an idiot Yes, you are correct. Mage A (lvl 4) attempts to cast a spell and gets +4 on the attempt while the enemy lvl 4 attempts to dispel, thus +0 on the attempt. No level 4 means losing the advantage and thus, as you correctly stated, you are at a +4 disadvantage. My bad, I apologize.

Point 2: Mostly magic. Haven't played against the new army book yet, but Tzeentch gave me a lot of trouble in the past. Gateway of course and Treason wrecked havoc among my poor little Goblins. Marauders were another big issue as they were only 2x the price of a Goblin yet were superior. Some mathhammer:

30 Marauders w/ Khorne, THW vs. 50 Goblins (not fair point-wise, but that's a usual battle): 18 attacks, hit at 3s => 12 hits, wound on 3s => 8 wounds, 6+ ward save => ~7 dead Goblins

Goblins strike back with 10 attacks, hit at 4s, 5 hits, wound on 4s, 2.5 dead Marauders, steadfast Goblins. The thing is that Marauders were able to both tarpit themselves vs a lot of enemies and still packed a lot of punch. That's no longer the case, fortunately, and Marauders are likely to lose.

What Goblins lack is anti-horde. We got Stone Lobbaz, but can only field two of them, and only our 6th spell is a template-based weapon that almost needs to be cast with IF in order to be fully effective. The other major downfall, and the main reason why Goblins are really weak, is no resistance to any sort of damage. Massed small arms fire completely wrecks us. The old Nurgle rain spell was instant death for Goblins. 5'' S2 hits destroyed a Goblin unit...any Goblin unit. Squig herders are a staple unit but lots of S2/3 fire kills them outright.

Hell Cannons are a big issue too as they have high S attacks, force panic tests and our normal anti-artillery units aka Wolf Riders cannot kill them, but rather get killed in return.

Warriors are not much of a problem as they can easily be tar-pitted.

Animosity is another big problem as you do not want to get in melee fights with Goblins, you need to rely on your war machines to thin the enemy out.

The easiest part is heavy cavalry such as Chaos Knights. Doom Diver, 1 hit, takes the unit out of the game. Same goes for Chariots: hit them with a Doom Diver, take them out.

Inexperienced Goblin players frequentlly make the mistake of not deploying over the entire zone, thus you could squeeze some scouts in. Marauder riders are a must. Try to force them behind the enemy battleline and wreck havoc among the war machines. Keep in mind that it's just Goblins operating them and they die on the spot. Disabling the war machines is key to defeating Goblins.

Another effective mean is Death Magic - if you can snipe the BSB / general out, you almost won the game. Most Goblin players run a bunkr behind their main line so it's harder to reach, but if you can somehow snipe the general out, Goblins will soon fall apart. Even with re-rolls, they now test on LD 5. Game over

Overall, Goblins have a good chance vs. WoC and the new army book seems to tilt the balance further towards Goblins. 6 Spear Chukkaz come at so few points and destroy anything with armor at ease.