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I am curious to peoples' thoughts about the various Razorback turrets that the Dark Angels now have access to. Some questions from a cost/benefit position:

1) What is the best anti-horde turret?

2) What is the best turret to help supplement the fight against flyers?

3) What is the best take all comers turret?

whoadirty wrote:
I am curious to peoples' thoughts about the various Razorback turrets that the Dark Angels now have access to. Some questions from a cost/benefit position:

1) What is the best anti-horde turret? With banner of devestation, who cares?

2) What is the best turret to help supplement the fight against flyers? TL Lascannon

3) What is the best take all comers turret? TL Lascannon

Yeah, TL LC is pretty awesome.

For Dark Angels? Twin-linked Lascannon all the way.

Blood Angels should definitely stick with their Lascannon/Plasma-Rifle loadout, though. The fast vehicle and rapid fire buffs made an already competitive loadout even better.

Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters: This gives you a good Rate of Fire and range, but won’t cut it vs. AV-12
Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer: Good vs. Hordes, but you will need to get close and no good vs. Flyers.
Twin-Linked Assault Cannon: Decent RoF, decent Range and its rending will do horrible thing to Flyers.
Twin-Linked Las-Cannon: No RoF worth talking about, but is great for taking down Armor and MC's.
Las Cannon with Twin-Linked Plasma Gun: Good Anti-Tank that gets better as you get closer to the target. If you could get within 12” of a flyer I could cause a great deal of damage.

I would say the Twin-Linked Assault Cannon would fill most of those needs.

Personally I would probably take the lascannon with a TL plasma gun, I just like it, having 2-3 shots instead of 1. The TLLC for reroll is good but, I prefer the plasma gun, as the transport will often move around and it lets me pop 3 AP2 shots around

I'd say the assault cannon turret ticks the requested boxes. Its the highest rof of all of them for hordes and has the potential to do bad things to heavy armour. High rof and twin linked helps as an ad-hoc aa gun and again rending gets it through all current flyer armour.it can deal with medium and light vehicles as well as infantry of all stripes so is multi-purpose.

Why do people keep bringing up rending against fliers? S6 rending is no more effective against AV12 and lower than straight S6 firepower. And even twin-linked, assault cannons are terrible. You're going to need a 6 to hit and a 6 to penetrate. 5.1% of your shots will manage to strip a hull point. With 4 shots, that is going to do literally nothing over 80% of the time.

If the AV isn't 6 points above your strength value, rending isn't going to do anything for you. And even at AV=S+6, it's just converting your scant few glances into penetrates. They're not even AP2.

Twin-linked AC vs. AV12 flier = 81% whiff.

If my probability is right then the twin linked lascannon is worse than the assault cannon at anti-air on av12. A 16% chance of a penetrating hit eacht urn of firing. So the assault cannon loadout is the best possible aa mount for the razorback. It might not be great but its the best option.

For me it is the Las/Plas but you could argue the Assault Cannon. If you don't like converting, then live with TL Las.
If you like the range, go assault cannon. If you want to kill MEQ and TEQ, go Las/Plas.

For those advocating the las/plas turret, are these fired as one weapon for purposes of moving/shooting limits or will one of the guns have to be snap fired if the vehicle moves 6"? Just curious as it seems like it would be two seperate weapons but since they occupy one weapon mount I am not sure if they are treated as one weapon.

two different weapons, so if moving to fast one needs to snapfire, but that doesnt matter if you shoot at flyers...

 Flinty wrote:
If my probability is right then the twin linked lascannon is worse than the assault cannon at anti-air on av12. A 16% chance of a penetrating hit eacht urn of firing. So the assault cannon loadout is the best possible aa mount for the razorback. It might not be great but its the best option.

The lascannon will strip the same number of hull points as the assault cannon, and will only get 75% penetrating shots instead of 100%. On the other hand, the lascannon is actually AP2, with all that entails on the vehicle damage chart. Of course, the assault cannon will be significantly better on AV11 targets. You know, relative to the fact that you're shooting a non-skyfire weapon.

If at all possible, these guns absolutely should not be fired at fliers. You will get nearly three times as many hits on ground targets as you will on aerial targets. So when you're doing target selection, ask yourself if the flier really is three times as scary. If it is? You probably should have brought more skyfire.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Did you remember to account for the fact that the assault cannon fires 4 shots? I know you're supporting my earlier conclusion, but accuracy is just as important too.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

I'm not clear you would ever resort to Razorbacks unless you other slots where full?

Heavy Support offers way better dakka for all three questions. Even a typhoon speeder in the FA slot is arguably better for the same points. Heck even a MSU tactical with a heavy weapon might be a better big picture investment.

So I guess the answer is none of the above.

Something I'm missing?

 Che-Vito wrote:

Corollax wrote:
Why do people keep bringing up rending against fliers? S6 rending is no more effective against AV12 and lower than straight S6 firepower. And even twin-linked, assault cannons are terrible. You're going to need a 6 to hit and a 6 to penetrate. 5.1% of your shots will manage to strip a hull point. With 4 shots, that is going to do literally nothing over 80% of the time.

If the AV isn't 6 points above your strength value, rending isn't going to do anything for you. And even at AV=S+6, it's just converting your scant few glances into penetrates. They're not even AP2.

Twin-linked AC vs. AV12 flier = 81% whiff.

4 Twin-Linked Assault Cannon shots, overall odds against Flyers:
5.1% chance of a penetrating hit against AV12 (you cannot glance, due to Rending)
5.1% chance of a penetrating hit against AV11, 5.1% chance of a glancing hit
10.2% chance of a penetrating hit against AV10, 5.1% chance of a glancing hit

All of the above are within 24"

1 Twin-Linked Lascannon shot, overall odds against Flyers:
15% chance of a penetrating hit against AV12, 5% chance of a glance.
20% chance of a penetrating hit against AV11, 5% chance of a glance
25% chance of a penetrating hit against AV10, 5% chance of a glance

All of the above are within 48"

While TL-Assault Cannons look significantly 'cooler' imo, than Lascannons...the math does not favor Assault Cannons against flyers.

wrong

vs an AV12 flyer

TL AC - 4 shots, 0.66 hit first time so 3.33 re-rolls get you another 0.55 hits, for a grand total of 1.2 hits.

Then 1/6 chance to penetrate gives us 0.2 penetrating hits for the assault cannon.

TL lascannon gets 0.16 hits, 0.13 with re-rolls, for a total of 0.29 hits, 0.2 hull points and 0.15 penetrating hits.

Against AV 11 the assault cannon gets you 0.4 hull points, and 0.2 penetrating, vs the TL lascannon's 0.25 hull points and 0.2 penetratings.

Against AV10 (are there even any AV 10 flyers?) the AC gets 0.6 hull points and 0.4 penetrating hits. The TL lascannon gets 0.29 hull points, 0.25 penetrating.

Yeah, it rather looked like he'd neglected to include the shot count for the assault cannon.

There are a few AV10 fliers, but they're pretty universally terrible. Dakkajets and Razorwings are probably the most notable outside of Imperial Armour publications.

Las-plas is even better at stripping hull points, if you can get within 12" (both weapons fired). All these options are very slow and ineffective though. 4 or 5 razorbacks to get rid of 1 hull point? Better off hoping for the lucky outright kill, I think, in which case twin-linked lascannons are probably your best bet (or speeders -- 12" move than 2 missiles into rear armour 10 isn't too shabby, even needing 6s to hit).

 Che-Vito wrote:

Corollax wrote:
Why do people keep bringing up rending against fliers? S6 rending is no more effective against AV12 and lower than straight S6 firepower. And even twin-linked, assault cannons are terrible. You're going to need a 6 to hit and a 6 to penetrate. 5.1% of your shots will manage to strip a hull point. With 4 shots, that is going to do literally nothing over 80% of the time.

If the AV isn't 6 points above your strength value, rending isn't going to do anything for you. And even at AV=S+6, it's just converting your scant few glances into penetrates. They're not even AP2.

Twin-linked AC vs. AV12 flier = 81% whiff.

4 Twin-Linked Assault Cannon shots, overall odds against Flyers:
5.1% chance of a penetrating hit against AV12 (you cannot glance, due to Rending)
5.1% chance of a penetrating hit against AV11, 5.1% chance of a glancing hit
10.2% chance of a penetrating hit against AV10, 5.1% chance of a glancing hit

All of the above are within 24"

1 Twin-Linked Lascannon shot, overall odds against Flyers:
15% chance of a penetrating hit against AV12, 5% chance of a glance.
20% chance of a penetrating hit against AV11, 5% chance of a glance
25% chance of a penetrating hit against AV10, 5% chance of a glance

All of the above are within 48"

While TL-Assault Cannons look significantly 'cooler' imo, than Lascannons...the math does not favor Assault Cannons against flyers.

This is not accurate.

Assault cannon has:
20% chance of a pen, 0% Glance against AV12, overall
20% chance of a pen, 20% Glance against AV11, overall
40% chance of a pen, 20% Glance against AV10, overall

You must have not counted the 4 shots correctly.

Also most flyers have av10 for their rear armour, so its still a useful check.

Corollax wrote:
Why do people keep bringing up rending against fliers? S6 rending is no more effective against AV12 and lower than straight S6 firepower. And even twin-linked, assault cannons are terrible. You're going to need a 6 to hit and a 6 to penetrate. 5.1% of your shots will manage to strip a hull point. With 4 shots, that is going to do literally nothing over 80% of the time.

If the AV isn't 6 points above your strength value, rending isn't going to do anything for you. And even at AV=S+6, it's just converting your scant few glances into penetrates. They're not even AP2.

Twin-linked AC vs. AV12 flier = 81% whiff.

You a bit off on how it works.
It's a lot better vs AV12 as you only Pen instead of glance Str 6 + D6 (with a roll of 6 normally being a glance adds another D3).
Twin linked means you hit ~30% of the time with each shot. With 4 shots, you should be averaging more than 1 hit per turn.
Compare that to twin-linked lascannon where you're hitting less than 1 time every 3 turns.

I'd take Las-Plas and leave the flyer killing to other units.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Don't feel bad, I find I almost never do anything to a degree of accuracy without at least 3 beers down me.

However 2 beers puts you firmly in "the zone" where everything you do is golden... its a fine line

Actually guys, your percents are all off. You guys were doing the math for expected results, them adding them 4 times.

Instead take the chance of 1 shot not penning and multiply it 4 times. An assault cannon has a 81% chance of wiffing, as reported earlier, and a 19 percent chance of 1 or more pens. The Las, as reported, has a 15% chance of a pen. However, since the hull point damage on either is negligible, the AP 2 Las cannon doubles the chance to wreck the flyer.

As an aside, a twin linked plasmas gun in rapid fire range has the same pen chance per shot as an assault cannon but at 12 inches, and an additional Las shot. The Las twin plasma, when in range, is the best at wrecking AV 12 flyers of all builds, and maintains parity at 24 with the assault and Las versions.

Devian -- that's precisely what I did in my calculation.

Corollax wrote:

If the AV isn't 6 points above your strength value, rending isn't going to do anything for you. And even at AV=S+6, it's just converting your scant few glances into penetrates. They're not even AP2.

Just thought id mention that a rend with the assault cannon also makes it ap2! So +1 on the damage chart!

 Scrollax wrote:

Corollax wrote:


If the AV isn't 6 points above your strength value, rending isn't going to do anything for you. And even at AV=S+6, it's just converting your scant few glances into penetrates. They're not even AP2.

Just thought id mention that a rend with the assault cannon also makes it ap2!

Not against vehicles.

Yeah, the rending rule only specifies the ap2 when you roll to wound. You don't do that against vehicles.