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Honestly, if the APC is supposed to be a count-as Chimera it has more than priced itself out of that range by now.

 BrookM wrote:
Honestly, if the APC is supposed to be a count-as Chimera it has more than priced itself out of that range by now.

It's bigger than a land raider, so not a counts as chimera.

To compare it with a Chimera is an insult to the Dreamforge APC. That vehicle kit is excellent and full of detail, it even includes the on-board stormtrooper unit.

Too expensive for my taste though.

 Korinov wrote:
To compare it with a Chimera is an insult to the Dreamforge APC. That vehicle kit is excellent and full of detail, it even includes the on-board stormtrooper unit.

Too expensive for my taste though.

Yeah, it's extremely detailed.. and I think that's the best and worst thing about it. Best because I usually love details like that. Worst because if you aren't building it for display but for gaming (especially if you're fielding many) those extra details are more than what I'm looking for.. I kinda wish it had been approached like the Chimera or Rhino with a generic box type interior with minimal detail and an upgrade kit for that extra bling (like Forgeworld kits).
I know it's not the same thing but given the original prices of the Stormtroopers I think a lot of us were hoping for something like
http://www.amazon.com/Tamiya-Models-German-Hanomag-SdKfz/dp/B000WN8AHA/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1453590106&sr=8-4&keywords=1+35+sdkfz
or
http://www.amazon.com/Tamiya-Models-37010-Sd-Kfz-234-Model/dp/B00502FO5Y/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1453590106&sr=8-16&keywords=1+35+sdkfz

And a kit to finish it off like
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Dog-Accessories-Dragon-T35018/dp/B00ZBIWP6S/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1453590106&sr=8-14&keywords=1+35+sdkfz

The pricing on the APC honestly killed my interest in the STuG because I'm fairly certain I won't be able to afford it if it ever does get produced :/

The size, complexity and detail of the APC is most comparable to the Valkyrie.

I would agree about the APC. I think it should have had a slightly simpler interior, with the troops being an optional upgrade. Then price it a little cheaper.

If the goal was to push these items towards the hi-end collector or the serious modeler, then yes the interior was a good thing. For the casual gamer, not so much.

I'd be fine with some of the smaller, more "common" vehicles in the Iron Core universe to not have interiors at all. The Stug, the Paladin, Black Widow, and any equivalents in the other factions don't really need the interior detail. It only slows down production and increases costs.


Also, as a side note, I have been looking at other manufacturers' products. The sci-fi future Nazi thing has been done before (although Dreamforge does it best). I wonder if it might be cheaper to buy the rights to a handfull of other lines and use them in the Iron Core universe? Basically place-holders until DF version are released in the distant future. There are more than a few items from DUST, AT-43, and Secrets of the Third Reich that might work. Not to mention several other small-time guys that make generic counts-as models that would be happy to cash in on a situation like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing I've wondered about is how far sprue-dulplication can go. I all ready mentioned that a single sprue repeated 4 times would make a bulk of the Black Widow. Could that be done with the other models too?

As silly as it sounds, one of my favorite models of all time is the REALLY old-school Game Workshop Rhino Model. It was simply one sprue, doubled up.

Yes, I know that it is a simple, undetailed model. It was also made with technology from 30 years ago. A similar philosophy of design could mean that a Stug could be made with as few as 2 unique sprues, instead of the 4 or 5 it would normally take.

DUST is a disaster, I wouldn't touch it with a 100' pole.

AT-43 is dead as a doornail.

SoTR never got any traction.

Really, I don't see Mark buying someone out. Better to partner with a rulesmaker.

I agree that DUST is a disaster, and I know that AT-43 is dead. I'm not talking about the rules, just the models. The fact that they are both in trouble means their designs (and molds for those models) could be picked up cheaply.

It's kind of like that little Subaru Sports car. It's actually a Toyota that was rebadged and changed just enough to look like a Subaru. Cheaper for Subaru than making their own.

Actually, the GT-86 / FR-S is a Subaru sports car that was engineered by Subaru, using the Subaru 2.0l boxer engine, and is built in Subaru's Gunma plant -- all of the hard stuff that costs real dollars to launch a car.

Toyota provided the existing Lexus IS transmission, the DI engine bits, and did the bodywork -- off the shelf parts and relatively easy styling work.

Toyota's real value was in providing sales volume via their massive global dealer network.

Subaru couldn't have done it without Toyota, but they could have done it with GM, Volkswagen, Honda or Ford. Toyota couldn't have done it at all.
____

Getting back to Dreamforge - Dust / AT-43, those are likely encumbered properties, in the sense that the current owner is likely to try and recover losses in any sale. So they actually have negative value, due to the current owner wanting more than market value to cover previous losses. Dust, in particular, is like this. Pure poison. If Dreamforge were to announce acquisition of Dust, Mark would be actively harming his brand.

In the end it all comes down to the fact that Mark didn't sculpt Ada with huge breasts like all of Paolo Perente's women have, so Paolo would not allow it to happen.

If Mark is looking for a team up, then maybe Afterlife. Has his own rules, does his own resin stuff. Mark could help transition them to plastic and they could help with the game system, and for a short period, resin parts. I'm not one to backtrack to resin, but maybe use it as a testbed for initial runs to get a few partial factions out there to see the direction of the armies, then go with the most popular options.

I'd prefer to not backtrack to resin either, however, I'd rather have resin soon than have to wait years for plastic.

Let's just face it, industry giant GW has yet to faze all of their resin kits out, and they have a HUGE market share. If they can't do it, demanding Dreamforge be all plastic is unrealistic.

Yes, plastic is much easier to convert and assemble. Not to mention it is less costly for high-volume items. Low-run items however, might be perfect for resin.

Alternate Leviathan heads (offering new rules) would be a relatively good choice. For a single lump of ping-pong sized resin you could charge $25 easily and people would pay it readily. I would pay a premium for a head that looked like the old Gabriel Knight.

Certain character models and low-volume units could also be resin. Hypothetically, if there was a unit that had models larger than Valkir (imagine GW Orgryn) that only had 2 or 3 models in the squad, I'd be happy for them to be resin. Heck, even a small scout buggy (Like an Ork Wartrack) would be fine in resin.


As for Plastic infantry I'd like to see, what is the "Russian" faction in Iron Core called? If Mark made some plastic long-coat guys with or without gasmasks he would be rolling in money. Thousands of 40K players have been asking for plastic greatcoat Imperial Guard for 15 years. With DF levels of detail they would sell so many kits it would probably be DF's top seller. He wouldn't even have to worry about rules at that point.

GW also had a huge catalog of units and sculpts dating back for decades done in metal. They've also added a few brand-new ranges and greatly expanded others. If they wanted to, they could easily be all-plastic, but they knew they'd make more selling new things than re-vamping existing ones. So yes, GW is the industry-leader with (comparatively) unlimited resources, but they also are carrying a great deal more baggage as a result of that. It still remains true that demanding Dreamforge produce an entire catalog in all-plastic in any sort of useful timeframe is indeed horribly unrealistic.

However, I'm not really convinced that resin is the best forward path. It would depend on the # of units that need to be sold to make the small sprues like Ada and the Leviathan heads viable really.

As far as the Protectorate goes (Space Russians), that investment would indeed be a great one tactically for the "I want to move kits" angle, but a huge step backwards strategically because he's just made The Great Patriotic War in Spaaaaaaaaaace! and it'd be somewhat unavoidable that people would think of that when thinking of Iron Core (even though it's more of The Great War in Spaaaaaaaaaace! ). So if he wants to just go with the "Counts As" market, then yeah, it'd be a great seller presuming nobody beats him to in the 18 months+ and I'd certainly snag a few boxes. If he does something truly novel like the Shadokesh, he might not sell much comparatively, but still have stuck to his vision and might develop his own game more, but at the cost of immediate sales (I'm sorry, I can't see Shadokesh selling as well as Not-Vahallans).

Having to make choices like that are why I'm glad I'm not Mark.

I got a bunch of the Feral Shadokesh and Handlers in the Kickstarter. I use them in my Dark Eldar army as HQ mercenary bodyguards.

I'm torn between what I'd like to see as the next race. Shadokesh are truly unique and will make the game its own thing. Protectorate on the other hand have much broader appeal and would rake in significant sales. If I remember the fluff Mark came up with for Iron Core, the Protectorate are "poor" and have fewer Leviathans, and as such rely more heavily on large, slow tanks. These would sell to many as well. Some of the common tank designs could also be shared, meaning less needs to be developed. With all this added income it could very well fund further expansion of the game. In the long run it might add more diversity than going strait to Shadowkesh.

I honestly would be happy with anything produced, and I WILL buy it.

Speaking of funding, I wonder if this will be funded by another kickstarter, or just be a private investment kind of thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, I'd love it if the Protectorate tanks took inspiration from Russian T-34 tanks, but larger almost superheavy sized with Iron Core esthetics. Boxy, but with seriously sloped front armor, a turret set far forward, and exposed fuels tanks

If you didn't see, Mark replied on the Dreamforge Facebook about goings on. He's been flying under the radar consolidating his distribution chain and taking that over for the most part.

The Shadokesh warrior box is coming down to final box art and sprue finalization. So, they are moving along.

I know for a fact that a rule set was delivered to Mark, and he may very well have plans to use it for full release as a game with his figures.

We can only hope that he gets his stuff broken out to the mainstream soon.

I heard that he go the renders for the Shadokesh done, and had box art, but I wasn't aware that they were all ready headed to production. I thought they might be in a "ready whenever you are" kind of situation. Sitting on a shelf ready for when time was right.

I didn't know about the rules set though. That is something I'm going to be glad to see.

Here's an idea that might be easy.

Do a box of light infantry/conscripts/cannon fodder. Bodies can be generic future infantry (flak vest and web gear), great coats, rags and mismatched armor or whatever. Do the body, legs and arms as one piece then offer several head options (heroic soldiers, gas-mask wearing oppressors, freedom fighters with bandanas over their faces, techno-barbarians, space russians, you get the idea).

Go for as many bodies as can fit on a sprue, maybe include 1 or 2 armless bodies per sprue to make special weapons or leaders, but the emphasis should be bodies over misc bits.

I've been painting a lot of metal lately and one thing is find is that when the body and arms are done as one unit you can get more diverse poses and more natural poses than then now-typical 5 part plastic figure. The legs, arms, shoulders, hips all work in harmony rather than being isolated units. Sure there'd be repetition but if a sprue had 10-15 individual bodies you'd only have a few and with a wide variety of heads, plus the ability to add other bits it would not be as major a problem as some might think.

Just as an example of what can be done, here's the Perry's fitting 15 bodies, plus some extra heads and arms on to one spure. More active poses might cut that number, but not by much.



I think people would be interested in a set like that, then any rules set would offer light infantry hoards, medium infantry in squads and heavy infantry in small bands. A diverse set of options for players.

It's an interesting thought, but I'm not sure how well it would play out in practice. The Perrys do it in historicals because in most historical games the focus is on the unit as a whole and not really individual models. This is primarily due to the blocks that defined combat from ancient times up to really the 20th century. The eye blurs as it tries to take in rank-upon-rank of soldiers where the fact that 15 poses repeat themselves in a block of 30 or 60 doesn't really jar that much because the human brain is incredibly lazy. Also historical army uniforms are at a glance largely of similar cuts for a given period, mainly differing in coloring and head-gear, and this also helps keep the eye from looking terribly closely at the bodies.

Modern and sci-fi settings have looser formations where the "unit" is actually individual models. On the one hand it's harder to notice repetition because they're more spread out, but on the other it's also easier because there's no "eye distraction" imposed by the formation itself. When there's not slight variation in the arms in terms of angle nor weaponry, the repeated nature becomes much more apparent, even with the head-swaps and extra gear simply because the arms are one of the more important aspects of a model. Once the pattern has been identified by the way the barrel of Pose 7 is always at this angle (and our lazy brains LOVE patterns, because it lets them be lazy), the other similarities become much more apparent. Now, you can break that up with more varied kits alongside it, similar to how GW's snap-fit Cadians blend in with an army of their multi-part brethren, but that's because of the amount of "pattern noise" that the bigger variety imposes.

All of that said, while I may disagree on the arms there is a good case to be made for the bodies being made one piece if it results in some sort of appreciable savings in tooling costs or sprue size. Doing a "build-a-faction" scheme of bodies + arms/weapons + heads as distinct sprues is an interesting idea as well, similar to what Vic does with her range in resin. Personally though, I think the more complex kits with cross-compatibility is the better option. Unfortunately, it's also the one that's the hardest to really do, and it does make the kits more expensive per model which lowers overall sales.

Are the Panzerjaegers available at all right now? I've checked with most of the big UK stores and havn't found any, nothing in Sweden or Germany either. Are the US stores out of stock to?

Huh.

I don't see them on Dream Forge's site either.

The War Store seems to have them.

http://www.thewarstore.com/dream-forge-games.html

Ohman wrote:
Are the Panzerjaegers available at all right now? I've checked with most of the big UK stores and havn't found any, nothing in Sweden or Germany either. Are the US stores out of stock to?

Thats one of the restock items currently on its way from China, If you find someone who has them in stock I would confirm with them first, before placing the order.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Here's an idea that might be easy.

Do a box of light infantry/conscripts/cannon fodder. Bodies can be generic future infantry (flak vest and web gear), great coats, rags and mismatched armor or whatever. Do the body, legs and arms as one piece then offer several head options (heroic soldiers, gas-mask wearing oppressors, freedom fighters with bandanas over their faces, techno-barbarians, space russians, you get the idea).

Go for as many bodies as can fit on a sprue, maybe include 1 or 2 armless bodies per sprue to make special weapons or leaders, but the emphasis should be bodies over misc bits.

I've been painting a lot of metal lately and one thing is find is that when the body and arms are done as one unit you can get more diverse poses and more natural poses than then now-typical 5 part plastic figure. The legs, arms, shoulders, hips all work in harmony rather than being isolated units. Sure there'd be repetition but if a sprue had 10-15 individual bodies you'd only have a few and with a wide variety of heads, plus the ability to add other bits it would not be as major a problem as some might think.

Just as an example of what can be done, here's the Perry's fitting 15 bodies, plus some extra heads and arms on to one spure. More active poses might cut that number, but not by much.





I think people would be interested in a set like that, then any rules set would offer light infantry hoards, medium infantry in squads and heavy infantry in small bands. A diverse set of options for players.

I see what you are going for there. I like that style of sprue. Honestly, when I think of Hordes, I don't exactly go for "individualism", so the repeating pose isn't a deal breaker. With the chest and legs as one piece I'm betting you could fit at least 25% more troops on the sprue over the stormtroopers.

Oh my it seems I discontinued a kit without even knowing it

http://www.thewarstore.com/product82106.html

 NoseGoblin wrote:
Oh my it seems I discontinued a kit without even knowing it

http://www.thewarstore.com/product82106.html

There is only truth on the internet! the conspiracy has been revealed!

 NoseGoblin wrote:
Thats one of the restock items currently on its way from China, If you find someone who has them in stock I would confirm with them first, before placing the order.

Will do. Thanks for the reply and good luck moving forward with your range, me and a lot of others are eagerly awaiting your next step!

Getting back the the shared ruleset, apparently someone is doing it in 6mm

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cewargames/polyversal-6mm-miniatures-game-system

Sc-fi greatcoat soldiers

Bodies with legs as one piece works best with a nice variety of poses, though. All in wide stance variants would be a waste.

Just something to toss out, with Warlord announcing their new zombie game, a lot of WGF kits are no longer 'counts as', they are part of a game.

I think that's another sign that having a game is vital to selling models.

Placed an order for another Keilerkopf, the cannon kit Loki/Zeus, and the Thor rocket launchers to put on my first one as a mobile HQ/artillery piece

Awesome sale on Leviathan arms, both 15mm and 28mm, at Miniature Market!

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/ssearch?q=Leviathan+Accessory

The arms are amazing - if you have any of these kits, you should snap some up at absurd prices here while they have stock (most are at a stock level of 3 currently, with just a few higher)

Any idea when the Keilerkopf APC will be restocked in the DreamForge web store?