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 xSPYXEx wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 xSPYXEx wrote:
Fearless automatically passes any LD test you're required to take.

Incorrect. Fearless automatically passes Morale, Fear, Regroup, and Pinning checks.
There's a non-trivial difference.

It's faster and easier to just say LD tests.

Psychic tests, Doom of Malan'tai tests, Mindshackle Scarabs, etc.

It's faster to say "I win because I say so", but it's not the rules.

 xSPYXEx wrote:

 tvih wrote:
You do in fact choose to fail the check and thus choose to flee (if you had to take the Morale test anyway, CT in fact wouldn't do anything!), in close combat it's the Initiative test that you have to deal with to see if you actually manage to get free or not. No such test for shooting phase tests, obviously.

Well, you have to be required to take a test before you can choose to fail one. Which isn't hard if you run Combat Squads, however.

Ah yes, true that you do have to "lose" the combat and get the test, indeed. Silly me.

--

And as for the Flamers and Screamers, they're so broken that yeah, you could just sa well consider them "legal exploits." Good luck playing against them with marines that rely on saves when they take your saves away, and even vehicles get wrecked by them effortlessly. A Horde army suffers less from the armor-ignoring nature of the attacks, but still gets annihilated regardless. It's funny when even locally people say the Daemons suck, yet they utterly dominated our local tournament. 12 matches, 11 massacres, one tie (against CronAir). The thing is just because some or even most units in a codex sucks doesn't mean the whole sucks.

 tvih wrote:

And as for the Flamers and Screamers, they're so broken that yeah, you could just sa well consider them "legal exploits." Good luck playing against them with marines that rely on saves when they take your saves away, and even vehicles get wrecked by them effortlessly. A Horde army suffers less from the armor-ignoring nature of the attacks, but still gets annihilated regardless. It's funny when even locally people say the Daemons suck, yet they utterly dominated our local tournament. 12 matches, 11 massacres, one tie (against CronAir). The thing is just because some or even most units in a codex sucks doesn't mean the whole sucks.

And yet, having one or two killer units doesn't make a codex good/OP...
Besides, Flamers/Screamer spam has plenty of viable counters, even with Marines. (and a horde list used properly just laughs at it)

On the other hand, a Daemon player going second against a Derp Quake list is well, 110% screwed.

Unless the GK player fails one of the WQ tests, at which point it's bend over time again.

Experiment 626 wrote:

On the other hand, a Daemon player going second against a Derp Quake list is well, 110% screwed.

Thats only one 'counter list' though.

How many of the rest of the armies will give you a challenge? Especially TAC lists?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Also - BoW are notoriously bad for getting rules hideously wrong, so I would take anything they say with a pinch of salt.

As for warp quake with 20 stikes being cheese? Not after the stupid WD update gave daemons the cheesiest army in creation it isnt. One of the least fun armies to play against is any daemon + allied IG (for the bastion quad gun with lord commisar lols) that is using the current "tactic" of spamming the crap out of flamers and screamers. It is absolutely yawn-tastic

I have just as little respect for those playing their daemons that way as I do for the warp quake maneuver. Besides someone who plays their daemons full of extra cheese like that really has no place to get whiny about being warp quaked in the first place. Just a matter of who's cheese wins the day then.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Also - BoW are notoriously bad for getting rules hideously wrong, so I would take anything they say with a pinch of salt.

As for warp quake with 20 stikes being cheese? Not after the stupid WD update gave daemons the cheesiest army in creation it isnt. One of the least fun armies to play against is any daemon + allied IG (for the bastion quad gun with lord commisar lols) that is using the current "tactic" of spamming the crap out of flamers and screamers. It is absolutely yawn-tastic

I have just as little respect for those playing their daemons that way as I do for the warp quake maneuver. Besides someone who plays their daemons full of extra cheese like that really has no place to get whiny about being warp quaked in the first place. Just a matter of who's cheese wins the day then.

Skriker

How many Flamers does it take to qualify as cheese? I generally run 2 units of 6, or 3 units of 4, and one squad of 8-9 Screamers. In the same list I run 4 FMCs (Fateweaver, Bloodthirster, 2x Tzeentch Princes). I've always run Flamers, even back in 5th, just not so many due to how costly they were. I will admit that they are sort of broken, so I would never bring 27 to a game.

If I were playing someone at my FLGS and he pulled out a Warp Quake list I'd let him deploy and if he went first I'd try to seize the initiative. If I were unsuccessful I'd say 'good game' with a large helping of sarcasm and walk away.

Experiment 626 wrote:
There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1.
Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...

5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.

Depends on whether or not you bring multiple units of screamers or flamers to a friendly game, because I wouldn't consider an army with 2 squads of each to be a friends army. Luckily there is only one daemon player in my local group, but out of the area daemon players have been coming to our local tournaments loaded down with max flamers and screamers and it has damn near killed any desire we had to run tournaments.

I have several armies, which usually come with me when I go to game, but if I know I am playing a daemon player I will run my knights, not loaded down with strike and interceptor squads but you can be sure there will be some of them and odds are they will be put into combat squads. To often I have had screamers and flamers hitting my lines hard on turn one. In fact any tournament I go to from now on will include Grey Knight allies.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I think one of the more cheesy, less exploit tactic is to use the imhotek's lightning in a apoc game, and that c'tan shard cryptec? combo that makes everything difficult dangerous. because i want to slow the crap out of an already slow format.

Heh, try using the Gets Hot! thingamajig the Warpsmith has on a 50-man Conscript Blob and have them recieve FRF, SRF!. Have fun rolling 150 shots 3 at a time.

the warpsmith can only use that on vehicles

Force multipliers are the way to get extreme cheese in this edition.

An example would be anything that lets you 'reroll'. A rerolled 2+ has a 35/36 chance of not getting hurt, which lets you tank nearly every hit without batting an eye.

The most obvious example of this is the fortuned shadow field. There are other examples, however. A wolf guard in terminator armor in a unit of GH who just popped the wolf banner can tank tons of ap3+ hits. Skullcrusher next to fateweaver can tank an entire paladin squads attacks.

Other examples are preferred enemy when you hit/wound on 3s. That increases the chances of hitting/wounding from 66.66% to 77.77% Its a very solid boost. This is even better with PGs, which then go from killing the wielder 1/18 of the time to 1/108 of the time. They also go from wounding 5/6 of the time to wounding 97.22% of the time -- a very nice perk!

Going the other direction works well too. Using a darkshoud to give all your bikes a 2+ cover save is a nice advantage. That's because going from a 3+ save to a 2+ save doubles your durability.

Edit: it's been covered...

valace2 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1.
Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...

5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.

Depends on whether or not you bring multiple units of screamers or flamers to a friendly game, because I wouldn't consider an army with 2 squads of each to be a friends army. Luckily there is only one daemon player in my local group, but out of the area daemon players have been coming to our local tournaments loaded down with max flamers and screamers and it has damn near killed any desire we had to run tournaments.

I have several armies, which usually come with me when I go to game, but if I know I am playing a daemon player I will run my knights, not loaded down with strike and interceptor squads but you can be sure there will be some of them and odds are they will be put into combat squads. To often I have had screamers and flamers hitting my lines hard on turn one. In fact any tournament I go to from now on will include Grey Knight allies.

Well, would I be a donkeycave if I brought two units of just 4-5 Flamers to a 1500pts game? What about if I brought a unit of 9 Flamers and two units of 3-4 Screamers to a 1750pts or 2000pts game?

Yes, I agree that bringing 27+27 is being a dirty-filthy hobo in friendly games, and if you think you're clever you're not - just a run-o-the-mill WAAC donkeycave who should burn in a car fire. Myself, I've honestly never brought more than 18 Flamers + 9 Screamers to a game. (and that time we were playing 2500pts, so it was hardly being rude) I used Flamers heavily before the WD update, and yes, I even played with two units of 3 Screamers before they became @$$kicking monsters!
Flamer/Screamer spam is no worse and just as rude as a 'Cron flying french bakery, or DE Venomspam or Vendetta-spam IG, or any of the other top-level boring spam lists.

But, even though it's a dirtball list, it's still not as bad as being denied the ability to even put your models on the table due to how Warp Quake interacts with the Daemon's forced deployment.
Hence why I think it's much cheesier than playing a boring- spam list. Warp Quake isn't a tactic at all, it's an abuse of a unforseen ineraction between two rules. Warp Quake can easily remove the Deep Strike rule from the game.
Quaking a Daemon player into submission on turn 1 takes no actual thought or strategic planning, just rolling some dice and denying your opponent the chance to even play.

Hence, it's about as low as you can get because you're playing at your opponent, instead of playing with your opponent.

Experiment 626 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1.
Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...

5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.

Depends on whether or not you bring multiple units of screamers or flamers to a friendly game, because I wouldn't consider an army with 2 squads of each to be a friends army. Luckily there is only one daemon player in my local group, but out of the area daemon players have been coming to our local tournaments loaded down with max flamers and screamers and it has damn near killed any desire we had to run tournaments.

I have several armies, which usually come with me when I go to game, but if I know I am playing a daemon player I will run my knights, not loaded down with strike and interceptor squads but you can be sure there will be some of them and odds are they will be put into combat squads. To often I have had screamers and flamers hitting my lines hard on turn one. In fact any tournament I go to from now on will include Grey Knight allies.

Well, would I be a donkeycave if I brought two units of just 4-5 Flamers to a 1500pts game? What about if I brought a unit of 9 Flamers and two units of 3-4 Screamers to a 1750pts or 2000pts game?

Yes, I agree that bringing 27+27 is being a dirty-filthy hobo in friendly games, and if you think you're clever you're not - just a run-o-the-mill WAAC donkeycave who should burn in a car fire. Myself, I've honestly never brought more than 18 Flamers + 9 Screamers to a game. (and that time we were playing 2500pts, so it was hardly being rude) I used Flamers heavily before the WD update, and yes, I even played with two units of 3 Screamers before they became @$$kicking monsters!
Flamer/Screamer spam is no worse and just as rude as a 'Cron flying french bakery, or DE Venomspam or Vendetta-spam IG, or any of the other top-level boring spam lists.

But, even though it's a dirtball list, it's still not as bad as being denied the ability to even put your models on the table due to how Warp Quake interacts with the Daemon's forced deployment.
Hence why I think it's much cheesier than playing a boring- spam list. Warp Quake isn't a tactic at all, it's an abuse of a unforseen ineraction between two rules. Warp Quake can easily remove the Deep Strike rule from the game.
Quaking a Daemon player into submission on turn 1 takes no actual thought or strategic planning, just rolling some dice and denying your opponent the chance to even play.

Hence, it's about as low as you can get because you're playing at your opponent, instead of playing with your opponent.

Only problem with quake anti daemon cheese is that the GK player has to go first. An the Vendetta spam isn't nearly as useful as it used to be, are they undercosted yes, but with only 3 shots its just not that effective when people are running mainly foot armies. Daemons will laugh at Vendettas and Crons will just get back up. If you know you are playing daemons and come loaded with 2 full interceptor squads and 2 full strike squads and then hope to go first you are TFG. Having said that I don't like flamers and screamers, yes flamers have always been good now they are damn near game breaking. They are to hard to kill and even 2 or 3 flamers can kill an entire unit of pretty much anything. They need to do something about those units.

I had a player I know once claim that Mephiston's psychic power that makes his Strength a 10 doesn't specify a duration, and so therefore it lasted all game. (When someone claimed that Blessings have a default duration, he counter argued that the power wasn't a Blessing, and couldn't possibly be, since there WERE no Blessings when that codex came out, and it was never errata'd to that effect.)

Hands down cheesiest rules exploit I have seen is the wobbly model exploit. We have a large supply of craters in my local game store, for use when a vehicle explodes. A player once claimed that the book states that you replace an exploded vehicle with the crater, and must put any carried models from the vehicle into the crater. Since models can only be balanced oddly (on each other's bases, or tipped over) with an opponent's permission, he would just refuse to give said permission, insisting that any models which wouldn't fit INSIDE the lip of the crater would be automatically destroyed. (Meaning, in most cases, that you can only place 3-5 models from the transport.)

 Jimsolo wrote:
I had a player I know once claim that Mephiston's psychic power that makes his Strength a 10 doesn't specify a duration, and so therefore it lasted all game. (When someone claimed that Blessings have a default duration, he counter argued that the power wasn't a Blessing, and couldn't possibly be, since there WERE no Blessings when that codex came out, and it was never errata'd to that effect.)

Hands down cheesiest rules exploit I have seen is the wobbly model exploit. We have a large supply of craters in my local game store, for use when a vehicle explodes. A player once claimed that the book states that you replace an exploded vehicle with the crater, and must put any carried models from the vehicle into the crater. Since models can only be balanced oddly (on each other's bases, or tipped over) with an opponent's permission, he would just refuse to give said permission, insisting that any models which wouldn't fit INSIDE the lip of the crater would be automatically destroyed. (Meaning, in most cases, that you can only place 3-5 models from the transport.)

This sounds more like cheating and less like cheese.

I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (daemon players who aren't your friends who you'll never play again) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops. I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.

I remember playing against another GK player and only losing one squad of psykers because my shooting phase was so ridiculous (6 Str 10 ap 1 36" large blasts and Plasma cannons & 36" storm bolters galore) and every squad contained either psycotroke, rad and blind grenades or two Jokero and had a 2+ or 3+ cover or 3++. I also remember a squad of Berzerkers and Karhn jumping out of a Land Raider and then bouncing off a single tech marine with a lucky set of rolls. Those grenades... Never get cocky and try to assault a single GK tech marine with a warding stave, shoot it if you have the chance.

As far as biggest cheese goes, I've thought about combining BA or DA with IG. Librarians with Divination supercharging squadrons Lemann Russ or Librarian rolling Biomancy or Telepathy in a full infantry platoon. Relentless + feel no pain or invisible squad of 50+ guardsmen with 5 heavy and 5 special weapons that can be turbo charged to do decent in CC with the right psychic powers + Commissars & Sgts before issuing orders. We tested a house rule where in 2k+ you could bring allied detachments from two different codexes just once, then promptly decided that it must be at least a 5k Apoc battle. Apoc battles are ridiculous if you adhere to the allied chart from the BRB as well. So many devastating combinations.

Experiment 626 wrote:
There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1.
Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...

5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.

You are not allowed to juggle units like you describe. They are placed not deep stuck again and it has to be a legal position so you only get to misplace them once. You guys have been playing it wrong. Btw, I also play daemons and I've had the following happen before:

warp quake, misplaced my screamers into coteaz's plasma cannon servators, he gets about wound of them because the tails make it impossible to completely be in base to base along with using the plastic clear see through bases (you know the ones I'm talking about). I make about 4 saves, (slightly above average) and lose 2 screamers out of squad of 8. I then turbo boost over coteaz's unit and take out coteaz's servitors + bolter acolytes and put one wound on coteaz despite his 2+ (he was near the front so only had some 3 wounds allocated to him after the rest of his squad died). Got lucky with D3 roll so 6 x 3 = 18 hits and vs T3, I got slightly above average with 12 wounds. As he was behind the aegis, he only got his crappy 5+ armor save since my final position is used to determine if he gets any cover. (we didn't know if you get cover for this but we played it like you did but really didn't matter in the above example)

I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (not your friends) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops.

How are you getting 7 psycotroke greandes? Most you can possibly have is 2 from HQ's and 3 from techmarines for total of 5. Not quite sure how you wrote the sentence but librarians can't have psychotrope grenades but I'm guessing you meant that the librarian is just along for the ride? Also, only one psychotrope grenade can work. Having several in one squad doesn't do anything for you per the FAQ. Having terminator armored guys with all crusaders works well vs small MSU 5 man units but you can't make sweeping advances so people will get away from you fairly easily and then the squad is vulnerable to small arms fire there after. 3++ vs 3+ armor is the same vs a wall of AP5 bolters.

Also with a librarian and grand master, you can't take coteaz, so how are the crusader henchmen troops? Not sure what you mean by this. Are you guys only playing 2K+ double FOC or something? Everything is pretty much broken at that stage and frankly I've not see any tournament or even local groups really do it anymore cause the game might as well be apoc as nothing is even remotely balanced at that point and we'd all be just playing for LOL's and beer.

I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.

2+ cover can work for some but you better be clustered into a ruin with great firing points/windows, a techmarine boosting it, and static librarian with stealth all sitting in a fire base wich may or may not have the best firing lanes. This can be totally ruined if say your opponent picked the table half with all the good ruins and is kind of dependent on your terrain make up for your exact table. Also this causes significant bunching up as I'm sure you are aware. The new noise marine spam will eat this alive. Str 8, ap3 ignore cover will eat through dreads/foot marines/vindicare you got hiding back behind the ruins there. It's also fairly suspect vs even the fairly commonly seen heldrake now a days.

I remember playing against another GK player and only losing one squad of psykers because my shooting phase was so ridiculous (6 Str 10 ap 1 36" large blasts and Plasma cannons & 36" storm bolters galore) and every squad contained either psycotroke, rad and blind grenades or two Jokero and had a 2+ or 3+ cover or 3++. I also remember a squad of Berzerkers and Karhn jumping out of a Land Raider and then bouncing off a single tech marine with a lucky set of rolls. Those grenades... Never get cocky and try to assault a single GK tech marine with a warding stave, shoot it if you have the chance.

so I take it your lists are something like:

8 psykers + 2storm bolter acolyte + 1-2 jokaero
8 psykers + 2storm bolter acolyte + 1-2 jokaero
8 psykers + 2storm bolter acolyte + 1-2 jokaero
8 psykers + 2storm bolter acolyte + 1-2 jokaero
8 psykers + 2storm bolter acolyte + 1-2 jokaero
8 psykers + 2 storm bolter acolyte + 1-2 jokaero?

coteaz with servitors with plasma cannons+ jokaero + acolytes ? (this is like 2k+ double FOC? cause you are over 6 troops now)

crusader squad + grand master/librarian again? (8 foot squads rawr!)

with techmarines in each squad? And a lot of ruins on your table half with all great LOS and all boosted I take it?

I mean this is a pretty good gunline (don't get me wrong cause I've run the same thing before) but you have no mobility to get objectives if they are not in your deployment area. There's no answer for you to get line breaker and ability to respond to 48' guns. Line of sight on some boards will see this get wrecked pretty bad too so it's again fairly dependent on your local terrain make up. Having a giant LOS blocking mountain in the middle of the map makes this list pretty much evaporate if the enemy can close in quickly. Once they drive off one of your buildings, they now get that nice 3+ cover save you nicely bolsterd for them too. (ork shoota boys can also pump out stupid amount of shots, 180 points of boys will shoot 12 henchmen off a building with 3+ cover in one turn, with waaag, I've overran these kinds of units before too even if one or two survive)

Deep striking flamers can also melt alot of these henchmen along with stuff like incinerators, and of course noise marines/heldrakes and probably venom spam too as they can stay at 36' range and poison spam you while you need another 6' to get into range with your guys as nightshields totally gives this kind of list the middle finger as you essentially are immobile since you can't afford to leave your cover.

Experiment 626 wrote:
And yet, having one or two killer units doesn't make a codex good/OP...
Besides, Flamers/Screamer spam has plenty of viable counters, even with Marines. (and a horde list used properly just laughs at it)

On the other hand, a Daemon player going second against a Derp Quake list is well, 110% screwed.

A Codex is "OP" if it can be used to make an OP list. Any Codex can make a crap list, but not all can make an OP list. It doesn't necessarily take many overpowered units to make a potentially overpowered army.

Flamer/Screamer spam can't really be properly countered with a proper take-all-comers marine list as far as I can tell as without just about every unit having good invulnerability saves you just flat out die faster than you can kill. And what marine units have those good invulnerability saves? Yeah, TH+SS termies, for C:SM Legion of the Damned... and that's about it. If the map is VERY open and the demon player has bad luck with his deep strikes you might have a small chance, but that's about it, on average you just lose, especially when you have a bunch of flying MCs with rerollable invulnerability saves coming for you when you're desperately trying to deal with the flamers and screamers that are simply twice as fast as you to begin with. As a primarily BT player I don't even have access to Null Zone, which to my limited Psyker knowledge could quite possibly be the best Psyker ability to have against demons (barring some potential GK anti-demon psyker shenanigans I guess, not really familiar with GK), especially lists with the Fateweaver.

Anyway, I'm not saying using Warp Quake like that isn't a slowed stunt to pull though if it works as you describe (I'm not familiar with the ability personally, I've never used a psyker of any sort so far), because it is. But whoever rewrote the Flamers and Screamers pulled an absolutely slowed stunt as well.

Speaking of Null Zone, I can't wait for the new C:SM codex to come out and hopefully remove that or make it subject to random power selection rolls.

 Exergy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I think one of the more cheesy, less exploit tactic is to use the imhotek's lightning in a apoc game, and that c'tan shard cryptec? combo that makes everything difficult dangerous. because i want to slow the crap out of an already slow format.

Heh, try using the Gets Hot! thingamajig the Warpsmith has on a 50-man Conscript Blob and have them recieve FRF, SRF!. Have fun rolling 150 shots 3 at a time.

the warpsmith can only use that on vehicles

The APOC rulebook also states that abilities and weapons with 'unlimited' range, or that affect every model on the table should be limited to 72" (pg 37 incase anyone wanted a citation)

 tvih wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
And yet, having one or two killer units doesn't make a codex good/OP...
Besides, Flamers/Screamer spam has plenty of viable counters, even with Marines. (and a horde list used properly just laughs at it)

On the other hand, a Daemon player going second against a Derp Quake list is well, 110% screwed.

A Codex is "OP" if it can be used to make an OP list. Any Codex can make a crap list, but not all can make an OP list. It doesn't necessarily take many overpowered units to make a potentially overpowered army.

Flamer/Screamer spam can't really be properly countered with a proper take-all-comers marine list as far as I can tell as without just about every unit having good invulnerability saves you just flat out die faster than you can kill. And what marine units have those good invulnerability saves? Yeah, TH+SS termies, for C:SM Legion of the Damned... and that's about it. If the map is VERY open and the demon player has bad luck with his deep strikes you might have a small chance, but that's about it, on average you just lose, especially when you have a bunch of flying MCs with rerollable invulnerability saves coming for you when you're desperately trying to deal with the flamers and screamers that are simply twice as fast as you to begin with. As a primarily BT player I don't even have access to Null Zone, which to my limited Psyker knowledge could quite possibly be the best Psyker ability to have against demons (barring some potential GK anti-demon psyker shenanigans I guess, not really familiar with GK), especially lists with the Fateweaver.

Anyway, I'm not saying using Warp Quake like that isn't a slowed stunt to pull though if it works as you describe (I'm not familiar with the ability personally, I've never used a psyker of any sort so far), because it is. But whoever rewrote the Flamers and Screamers pulled an absolutely slowed stunt as well.

If you're facing 27+27 Flamers/Screamers, Fatey AND a bunch of other FMC's, then you're playing at rediculous pts levels.

And yes, even Templars have answers, despite the age of their codex. Hiding inside your transports for example, while giving up the First Blood point means that all you lose on turn 1 is a bunch of 50'ish pts transports, then pour point-blank range rapid firing goodness into those 5++ saves.
Add a flamer or three to your army instead of always spaming meltas/plasmas. (those make a god-awful mess of freshly landed daemon!)
Bring some Land Speeders. (Heavy bolters + Asscan/Heavy flamer)
Drop Pod down some of your own squads and get the drop on him.

It's not easy, but it's doable.

 macc92 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I think one of the more cheesy, less exploit tactic is to use the imhotek's lightning in a apoc game, and that c'tan shard cryptec? combo that makes everything difficult dangerous. because i want to slow the crap out of an already slow format.

Heh, try using the Gets Hot! thingamajig the Warpsmith has on a 50-man Conscript Blob and have them recieve FRF, SRF!. Have fun rolling 150 shots 3 at a time.

the warpsmith can only use that on vehicles

The APOC rulebook also states that abilities and weapons with 'unlimited' range, or that affect every model on the table should be limited to 72" (pg 37 incase anyone wanted a citation)

Good to know as i believe it was something like 150k vs 150 on 6 or so tables at the now closing LA bunker. And i just remember folks on stools sleeping and waiting for the necron player to roll for stuff.
And at an end of league mega battle at the san pedro gee dubs on a 6k vs 6k 3 way on a vanguard strike 6 ft by 6 ft table vs at least 2 blood angel jump pack players (they where sad as they ether moved slow or lost a buncha models)

Manticores with camo netting behind an ADL. 3+ cover. Or, any unit with stealth or camo cloaks behind the line.

Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo.

@martin All my tanks forever have camo cloaks and they never move from behind their aegis defense line. I'm glad we don't have to pretend we aren't fighting world war I in space anymore.

 sudojoe wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1.
Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...

5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.

You are not allowed to juggle units like you describe. They are placed not deep stuck again and it has to be a legal position so you only get to misplace them once. You guys have been playing it wrong. Btw, I also play daemons and I've had the following happen before:

warp quake, misplaced my screamers into coteaz's plasma cannon servators, he gets about wound of them because the tails make it impossible to completely be in base to base along with using the plastic clear see through bases (you know the ones I'm talking about). I make about 4 saves, (slightly above average) and lose 2 screamers out of squad of 8. I then turbo boost over coteaz's unit and take out coteaz's servitors + bolter acolytes and put one wound on coteaz despite his 2+ (he was near the front so only had some 3 wounds allocated to him after the rest of his squad died). Got lucky with D3 roll so 6 x 3 = 18 hits and vs T3, I got slightly above average with 12 wounds. As he was behind the aegis, he only got his crappy 5+ armor save since my final position is used to determine if he gets any cover. (we didn't know if you get cover for this but we played it like you did but really didn't matter in the above example)

I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (not your friends) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops.

How are you getting 7 psycotroke greandes? Most you can possibly have is 2 from HQ's and 3 from techmarines for total of 5. Not quite sure how you wrote the sentence but librarians can't have psychotrope grenades but I'm guessing you meant that the librarian is just along for the ride? Also, only one psychotrope grenade can work. Having several in one squad doesn't do anything for you per the FAQ. Having terminator armored guys with all crusaders works well vs small MSU 5 man units but you can't make sweeping advances so people will get away from you fairly easily and then the squad is vulnerable to small arms fire there after. 3++ vs 3+ armor is the same vs a wall of AP5 bolters.

Also with a librarian and grand master, you can't take coteaz, so how are the crusader henchmen troops? Not sure what you mean by this. Are you guys only playing 2K+ double FOC or something? Everything is pretty much broken at that stage and frankly I've not see any tournament or even local groups really do it anymore cause the game might as well be apoc as nothing is even remotely balanced at that point and we'd all be just playing for LOL's and beer.

I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.

2+ cover can work for some but you better be clustered into a ruin with great firing points/windows, a techmarine boosting it, and static librarian with stealth all sitting in a fire base wich may or may not have the best firing lanes. This can be totally ruined if say your opponent picked the table half with all the good ruins and is kind of dependent on your terrain make up for your exact table. Also this causes significant bunching up as I'm sure you are aware. The new noise marine spam will eat this alive. Str 8, ap3 ignore cover will eat through dreads/foot marines/vindicare you got hiding back behind the ruins there. It's also fairly suspect vs even the fairly commonly seen heldrake now a days.

I remember playing against another GK player and only losing one squad of psykers because my shooting phase was so ridiculous (6 Str 10 ap 1 36" large blasts and Plasma cannons & 36" storm bolters galore) and every squad contained either psycotroke, rad and blind grenades or two Jokero and had a 2+ or 3+ cover or 3++. I also remember a squad of Berzerkers and Karhn jumping out of a Land Raider and then bouncing off a single tech marine with a lucky set of rolls. Those grenades... Never get cocky and try to assault a single GK tech marine with a warding stave, shoot it if you have the chance.

so I take it your lists are something like:

8 psykers + 2storm bolter acolyte + 1-2 jokaero
8 psykers + 2storm bolter acolyte + 1-2 jokaero
8 psykers + 2storm bolter acolyte + 1-2 jokaero
8 psykers + 2storm bolter acolyte + 1-2 jokaero
8 psykers + 2storm bolter acolyte + 1-2 jokaero
8 psykers + 2 storm bolter acolyte + 1-2 jokaero?

coteaz with servitors with plasma cannons+ jokaero + acolytes ? (this is like 2k+ double FOC? cause you are over 6 troops now)

crusader squad + grand master/librarian again? (8 foot squads rawr!)

with techmarines in each squad? And a lot of ruins on your table half with all great LOS and all boosted I take it?

I mean this is a pretty good gunline (don't get me wrong cause I've run the same thing before) but you have no mobility to get objectives if they are not in your deployment area. There's no answer for you to get line breaker and ability to respond to 48' guns. Line of sight on some boards will see this get wrecked pretty bad too so it's again fairly dependent on your local terrain make up. Having a giant LOS blocking mountain in the middle of the map makes this list pretty much evaporate if the enemy can close in quickly. Once they drive off one of your buildings, they now get that nice 3+ cover save you nicely bolsterd for them too. (ork shoota boys can also pump out stupid amount of shots, 180 points of boys will shoot 12 henchmen off a building with 3+ cover in one turn, with waaag, I've overran these kinds of units before too even if one or two survive)

Deep striking flamers can also melt alot of these henchmen along with stuff like incinerators, and of course noise marines/heldrakes and probably venom spam too as they can stay at 36' range and poison spam you while you need another 6' to get into range with your guys as nightshields totally gives this kind of list the middle finger as you essentially are immobile since you can't afford to leave your cover.

...I think you missed the points I was making:

Okay, this isn't a specific list I am talking about that you can tailor a list to destroy, but the cheese that exists within the GK codex: You can bring 7 Psychotroke grenades in a 2k+ battle and have them each in separate CC units, but I am not going to write that list out here; you can pack a list full of cheap twin-linked plasma cannons in 2+/3+ cover, but I am not going to write that list here. These are examples of the cheese one can dish out if one is so inclined which is what the topic is about. Exploiting the shrouding to grant a 3+ cover save to your land raider which is holding an objective behind a defense line (2+ if you play your objectives/ruins right), that is part of the Librarian/Grand Master Cheese; And with Coteaz and three librarians and 3 tech marines you can deploy your entire army in 2+ cover and it won't be crowded.

Psycannons Galore and Warp Quake are kind of cheesy, but Abaddon and a Squad of Terminators won't kill each other and then bounce off a squad that costs 1/3 their points because of them, a full squad of Necron Sheild Guard won't kill themselves and their lord because of them, Psychotroke grenade can do that (not always, but it happens) the fact that Psychotroke grenades make any squad, no matter how good it is in CC, think twice before assaulting one holding it is why I dub it the King Cheese of the GK codex, sitting high upon the other cheese of the codex, stankier than all others.

 xole wrote:
Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo.

Rule what? Yarrick can't join Meph...

rigeld2 wrote:

 xole wrote:
Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo.

Rule what? Yarrick can't join Meph...

Why on earth not?

 CaptainGrey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 xole wrote:
Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo.

Rule what? Yarrick can't join Meph...

Why on earth not?

He's Infantry (Unique), not IC. You can never join an IC to a unit that only ever consists of a single model (Battle Brothers or no) unless it also has the IC special rule (i.e. you can't join a Tyranid Prime to a Trygon or Tervigon, but you can attach one to a squad of Carnifexes)... that hasn't changed while I wasn't looking has it, because if so then cheese has been unleashed in 6th edition...

 CaptainGrey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 xole wrote:
Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo.

Rule what? Yarrick can't join Meph...

Why on earth not?

IC on page 39, BRB. ICs aren't allowed to join vehicles or units that always consist of one model. Mephiston isn't an IC. He's a unit that always consists of one Mephiston.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 xole wrote:
Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo.

Rule what? Yarrick can't join Meph...

Why on earth not?

As others have pointed out an IC can not join a unit that only ever consists of one model. Meph will only ever be a one model unit.
Yarrick can run around near Meph but that's about it.