Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

rigeld2 wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 xole wrote:
Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo.

Rule what? Yarrick can't join Meph...

Why on earth not?

As others have pointed out an IC can not join a unit that only ever consists of one model. Meph will only ever be a one model unit.
Yarrick can run around near Meph but that's about it.

Dr. Samuel Johnson is right about Olsen Johnson being right.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Back on the topic of cheese though. I have to say in all of 6th edition, as a GK player whose day can be ruined by anyone who wants to just sneak a Farseer in their army, combined with how many armies they are Battle Brothers with and how potent Divination is and anti-all psykers the Eldar are, I submit that Eldar Allies are the ultimate cheese. I'm okay with playing DE and Orks, or IG and Chaos Daemons or even Tau and Space Marines; but there are certain unspoken rules in my play group and so far we've all stayed away from Eldar allies because it seems rude (I should note that there is an Eldar player in my group and there is a difference between playing Eldar and sticking a base Farseer and rangers in the back of the field just to screw with someone's army. Completely different).

I thank The Dice Gods that at least no allies can ever embark on each other's transport as Firedragons in the Dias of Destruction with a Farseer would have had me sell my other armies to invest in Eldar.

...I think you missed the points I was making:

Okay, this isn't a specific list I am talking about that you can tailor a list to destroy, but the cheese that exists within the GK codex: You can bring 7 Psychotroke grenades in a 2k+ battle and have them each in separate CC units, but I am not going to write that list out here; you can pack a list full of cheap twin-linked plasma cannons in 2+/3+ cover, but I am not going to write that list here. These are examples of the cheese one can dish out if one is so inclined which is what the topic is about. Exploiting the shrouding to grant a 3+ cover save to your land raider which is holding an objective behind a defense line (2+ if you play your objectives/ruins right), that is part of the Librarian/Grand Master Cheese; And with Coteaz and three librarians and 3 tech marines you can deploy your entire army in 2+ cover and it won't be crowded.

Psycannons Galore and Warp Quake are kind of cheesy, but Abaddon and a Squad of Terminators won't kill each other and then bounce off a squad that costs 1/3 their points because of them, a full squad of Necron Sheild Guard won't kill themselves and their lord because of them, Psychotroke grenade can do that (not always, but it happens) the fact that Psychotroke grenades make any squad, no matter how good it is in CC, think twice before assaulting one holding it is why I dub it the King Cheese of the GK codex, sitting high upon the other cheese of the codex, stankier than all others.

Technically in a double FOC, you can bring 4+6 so 10 psychotrope grenade slots as that's what techmarines are for.

I'd hardly call those combos even cheesy for plasma in 3+ cover as DA can do it even better in some ways or long fangs and aegis or marines and bolster and allied in DA or wolves priests for divination. Heck, Tau probably does high powered shooting with cover along with eldar allies for divination even better and they can strip your cover with marker lights. I'd hardly call that cheesy at all now a days. 4++ invul land raiders with bolters of banner of devestation is where the new stuff is at. Cover isn't as good as it used to be and GK unfortunately are woefully bad at stripping/denying cover saves to the enemy. CSM with noise marines and heldrakes are far far cheesier now a days.

I honestly can't really give as much credit to psychotrope grenades in 6th now as most people are moving away from assault almost completely due to all the nerfs. They are great devices to have in assault I agree but it only works on the first turn and frankly it's almost overkill to buy that many grenads now a days in the shooty war we're having in the current meta. We're seeing on average even with assault units, about 1-2 assaults occur in a whole game now a days.

I'm sorry, the psyco grenade just can't be the ultimate cheese at least in 6th due to low number of actual assaults now a days, increased reliance on shooting/fliers, and also but not limited to the fact that alot of races now get access to similar ability with telekinesis. It's just not the cheese that it used to be. High str, ignore cover, salvo or stuff like cron-air is rapidly leaving GK behind.

valace2 wrote:
Depends on whether or not you bring multiple units of screamers or flamers to a friendly game, because I wouldn't consider an army with 2 squads of each to be a friends army. Luckily there is only one daemon player in my local group, but out of the area daemon players have been coming to our local tournaments loaded down with max flamers and screamers and it has damn near killed any desire we had to run tournaments.

So pretty much any Tzeentch themed daemon list is a cheesy? If I play a single God I will bring multiples of all of the units I can include in the army, because I have to do so to fill out my points. Pretty arbitrary measurment, multiple units of screamers or flamers. 2 units of 5 screamers and 2 units of 4 flamers does not equate to 3 units of 9 flamers and 3 units of 9 screamers to get maximum effect and obnoxiousness. There is a level of inclusion that crosses the line, but just have multiple units of them is not it. I have a massive daemon horde that has 2 of every unit except nurgilings and slaanesh chariots. Only bought one of the chariots to try it out and kind of find the whole "scifi chariot" thing kind of silly. That way I can play combined hordse easily, single god hordes easily, etc. Don't even have 9 flamers of 9 screamers in my collection, let alone multiple units of 9. Think I have 7 flamers (4 metal and 1 new box of plastics) and 8 screamers (1 5 screamer box and 1 new 3 screamer box). So my tzeentch army would have multiple units of both at size 3 and 4 for the Flamers and both size 4 for screamers. Those units are hardly unbalancing or over powered in those configurations at all.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sorginak wrote:
Back on the topic of cheese though. I have to say in all of 6th edition, as a GK player whose day can be ruined by anyone who wants to just sneak a Farseer in their army, combined with how many armies they are Battle Brothers with and how potent Divination is and anti-all psykers the Eldar are, I submit that Eldar Allies are the ultimate cheese. I'm okay with playing DE and Orks, or IG and Chaos Daemons or even Tau and Space Marines; but there are certain unspoken rules in my play group and so far we've all stayed away from Eldar allies because it seems rude (I should note that there is an Eldar player in my group and there is a difference between playing Eldar and sticking a base Farseer and rangers in the back of the field just to screw with someone's army. Completely different).

Given that the common logic people like to use for as to why Eldar and Dark Eldar are battle brothers (because despite their spiritual differences they are all eldar and no one else is), I personally think that should be their *only* battle brothers level ally since no one else is an eldar they just shouldn't care as much about them. Thus making the eldar psychic allies less useful for the majority of the army. Of course people want their cake and want to eat it too so we get what we get. Eldar allies as you describe bring back too much of the feel of 2nd edition where you fought army X, but it was usually the bare minimum of army X stacked with a craptastic collection of eldar special characters always including a farseer. So that tactic really isn't unique to 6th edition. It just hasn't been doable for multiple versions of the game.

Skriker

Back on the topic of cheese though. I have to say in all of 6th edition, as a GK player whose day can be ruined by anyone who wants to just sneak a Farseer in their army, combined with how many armies they are Battle Brothers with and how potent Divination is and anti-all psykers the Eldar are, I submit that Eldar Allies are the ultimate cheese. I'm okay with playing DE and Orks, or IG and Chaos Daemons or even Tau and Space Marines; but there are certain unspoken rules in my play group and so far we've all stayed away from Eldar allies because it seems rude (I should note that there is an Eldar player in my group and there is a difference between playing Eldar and sticking a base Farseer and rangers in the back of the field just to screw with someone's army. Completely different).


Sorry if its off topic but i must ask, How is it any different then grey knights allying with IG to over come ALL there weak points? I play dark eldar/eldar allies simply because i have to. The amount of GK's around is ridiculous and as DE we have no psykic defense, so a farseer is the best option by far. Also is it so bad that for once its the GK's getting screwed over? I do it for all the daemons out there!!! Pathfinders make a good backfield Obj unit which dark eldar dont have access to, am i cheese for using them? Am i cheese for having allied halequins with the seer for fortune with a archon w/ shadowfield??? Well, maybe that bit....

But anyway, the biggest cheese i have came across is mordric using FITF with his stormraven, i looked and looked to find if i couldn't and found nothing. Altho it was a team game and my allie had the plasma LRBT :3

Have to agree that it is kind of silly to add psychic powers back to the game and leave some forces high powered in that area and others with absolutely nothing. Though there is still the saving throw available to any unit, so those armies aren't completely unstoppable. It is more problematic for a person who relies heavily on their psychic powers in games to suddenly find them not as useful, than it is for someone who has none and never had to use them to begin with.

Skriker

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
mordric using FITF with his stormraven

Not legal whatsoever. Mordrak's FttF only works on his unit.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Back on the topic of cheese though. I have to say in all of 6th edition, as a GK player whose day can be ruined by anyone who wants to just sneak a Farseer in their army, combined with how many armies they are Battle Brothers with and how potent Divination is and anti-all psykers the Eldar are, I submit that Eldar Allies are the ultimate cheese. I'm okay with playing DE and Orks, or IG and Chaos Daemons or even Tau and Space Marines; but there are certain unspoken rules in my play group and so far we've all stayed away from Eldar allies because it seems rude (I should note that there is an Eldar player in my group and there is a difference between playing Eldar and sticking a base Farseer and rangers in the back of the field just to screw with someone's army. Completely different).


Sorry if its off topic but i must ask, How is it any different then grey knights allying with IG to over come ALL there weak points? I play dark eldar/eldar allies simply because i have to. The amount of GK's around is ridiculous and as DE we have no psykic defense, so a farseer is the best option by far. Also is it so bad that for once its the GK's getting screwed over? I do it for all the daemons out there!!! Pathfinders make a good backfield Obj unit which dark eldar dont have access to, am i cheese for using them? Am i cheese for having allied halequins with the seer for fortune with a archon w/ shadowfield??? Well, maybe that bit....

But anyway, the biggest cheese i have came across is mordric using FITF with his stormraven, i looked and looked to find if i couldn't and found nothing. Altho it was a team game and my allie had the plasma LRBT :3

Ya FITF, its a very poorly worded rule and I'm not getting into it here as the last time it got brought up the topic got shut down (Though I don't consider it any worse than a proper drop pod assault).

If someone is Allying GK and IG against your DE and Eldar and you are actually using your Eldar, I'd be okay with that. My problem is when people just stick a base Farseer in the back of the map and has no other purpose other than to mess with psychic powers (Ahriman gets it the worst, I've seen him try to overcome the psychic wall and die from perils twice). I'll ignore the blatant GK hatred as I am sure it is bitterness from not maximizing your night shields and disintegrator cannons. My friends and I sometimes use each other's armies to battle with to try to gain a deeper understanding of the armies and I don't recall ever seeing my Knights pummeled as hard as when I played DE against them and brought 14 disintegrator cannons and 10 dark lances.

Also, the great thing about 6th is every unit gets to deny the witch. An army with Psychic might can be oppressive but it isn't unstoppable, but having a single model that can invalidate at least one special rule from every unit in a codex is why I call Eldar Allies Cheese.

There are plenty of armies where that single model does exactly nothing against as we'll though...

The bad thing about 6th is there is very little to stop buff powers from going off now. Which is the majority of GK abilities.

 Skriker wrote:

valace2 wrote:
Depends on whether or not you bring multiple units of screamers or flamers to a friendly game, because I wouldn't consider an army with 2 squads of each to be a friends army. Luckily there is only one daemon player in my local group, but out of the area daemon players have been coming to our local tournaments loaded down with max flamers and screamers and it has damn near killed any desire we had to run tournaments.

So pretty much any Tzeentch themed daemon list is a cheesy? If I play a single God I will bring multiples of all of the units I can include in the army, because I have to do so to fill out my points. Pretty arbitrary measurment, multiple units of screamers or flamers. 2 units of 5 screamers and 2 units of 4 flamers does not equate to 3 units of 9 flamers and 3 units of 9 screamers to get maximum effect and obnoxiousness. There is a level of inclusion that crosses the line, but just have multiple units of them is not it. I have a massive daemon horde that has 2 of every unit except nurgilings and slaanesh chariots. Only bought one of the chariots to try it out and kind of find the whole "scifi chariot" thing kind of silly. That way I can play combined hordse easily, single god hordes easily, etc. Don't even have 9 flamers of 9 screamers in my collection, let alone multiple units of 9. Think I have 7 flamers (4 metal and 1 new box of plastics) and 8 screamers (1 5 screamer box and 1 new 3 screamer box). So my tzeentch army would have multiple units of both at size 3 and 4 for the Flamers and both size 4 for screamers. Those units are hardly unbalancing or over powered in those configurations at all.

Skriker

+1

As a Tzeentch player myself, I find it somewhat insulting that I'd be labeled as 'cheesey' just because I have multiple units of Flamers/Screamers. What the heck else am I supposed to take to make-up my pts?!

My own personal rule is that I never include more than 9 of each per full 1000pts I'm playing, except in strait 1000pts or under games at which point I'll limit myself to no more than 9 combined. (because they are difficult to deal with)
Is that really cheesey to have a list with say 2 units of 4 Flamers + a unit of 6 Screamers at 1500pts? (Or are Daemon players simply not allowed to compete with other 'hard' lists because we single handedly ruined Fantasy?)

Mind you, I've had a local GK player whine that even taking a single unit of 3 Flamers is OP.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
There are plenty of armies where that single model does exactly nothing against as we'll though...

The bad thing about 6th is there is very little to stop buff powers from going off now. Which is the majority of GK abilities.

How is that any different than 5th? At least now every unit can deny the witch while before you had to have your psychic hood moving around the field to be in a 24" zone that in my opinion never should have been able to cancel out buffs to your own squad. By that standard every army that didn't have a librarian was completely screwed in 5th. The reason they weren't is that Psychic powers are powerful, but they won't win you the game. Now every army has some special rules or powers that are similar and even if they don't get a piece of that pie they have a means of countering it via deny the witch, and even DE have a character that is anti-psychers as I am sure the new Tau codex will get one too.

This topic is about cheese and exploits, all I am saying is that sticking a single model in an army when you know you are going against a Psyker army just to cancel their powers out isn't tactics, its cheese and I will be very surprised if that power isn't nerfed with the new codex. Its like the Necron dex just before the new one came out, the ability to "we'll be back" your units on a 4+ twice in a turn was cheese. GK power weapons in 5th was a bit OP, but then so were all power weapons and 6th took care of that. The only things I consider true cheese are things that combat by invalidating rules and stat lines not tactical precision, that's why I rule Psychotroke grenades cheese.

 Sorginak wrote:
I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (daemon players who aren't your friends who you'll never play again) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops. I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.

Wait, Warp Quake only affects Deepstriking Deamons?

I had someone tell me It affecting all deepstrikers.even drop pods. That rule allowed his Tau to stay alive.

*Quote* Mind you, I've had a local GK player whine that even taking a single unit of 3 Flamers is OP. *Quote*

There is only one answer to this, punch him in the throat!

There isnt a single army that resolves around psykic powers (MAYBE with the exception of tyranids, but they so screwed already this wont make much of a difference ) and if you MAKE an army that resolves around it you should be subjected to the same problem as every other army built around one thing. Rock Paper Bolter. So no, having a farseer is the ONLY good defense many xenos can get. Just because its effective for tau to have a seer to divination there shooting and for jet bikes to scoot around at the end doesnt mean its cheesey. Or one could say its cheesey for all grey knights to have a force weapon at AP 3 at least on ALL there units. Just because its effective (sorry for the grey knight hate but when i try to come up with examples they are always first to mind) Cheesey is blantently ignoring RAI/fluff to get a winning army. For example i will be cheesey as soon as i finish my halequin unit with shadowseer, farseer and archon, but not a moment before!!

But back to my point, any army that relies heavily on one thing carnt moan when they meet a thing that takes it from under them.

*Rant off*

The person who plays the mordric thing is very persauding with the store manager when it was brought to him, so he ruled it in his favour, dam puppy dog eyes! But if that isn't legal then id have to go with my plan for a unit with a re-rollable 2++ shadowfield at the frount, at least a 4+ re-rollable cover, 3 str 8 pistols, rending (here come the 's!) and a bucketload of attacks. GO GO GADGET DEATHSTAR!!!!

 xole wrote:
Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo..

Shame that an IC can't join a unit of a single model, so you can't attach Yarrick to Mephiston.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Sorginak wrote:
I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (daemon players who aren't your friends who you'll never play again) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops. I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.

Wait, Warp Quake only affects Deepstriking Deamons?

I had someone tell me It affecting all deepstrikers.even drop pods. That rule allowed his Tau to stay alive.

They were correct. Warp Quake works on any Deep Striking unit.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Sorginak wrote:
I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (daemon players who aren't your friends who you'll never play again) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops. I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.

Wait, Warp Quake only affects Deepstriking Deamons?

I had someone tell me It affecting all deepstrikers.even drop pods. That rule allowed his Tau to stay alive.

No, it works on everyone, it's just that Daemon players can't comprehend that it screws Drop Pod lists over too.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Sorginak wrote:
I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (daemon players who aren't your friends who you'll never play again) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops. I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.

Wait, Warp Quake only affects Deepstriking Deamons?

I had someone tell me It affecting all deepstrikers.even drop pods. That rule allowed his Tau to stay alive.

No, it works on everyone, it's just that Daemon players can't comprehend that it screws Drop Pod lists over too.

I meant that that tactic only screws over Deamon armies as they are the only one who have to rely on Deep Strike, and anyone who would use that tactic as their entire army base against daemons is basically saying "I don't feel like battling right now but check out my GK models" which should not be the point of battling and I guess I just don't consider it that cheesy because I would never do it and I never met anyone who has or would. I suppose if I had invested in a Drop Pod based army I would be upset about Warp Quake as well.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 xole wrote:
Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo..

Shame that an IC can't join a unit of a single model, so you can't attach Yarrick to Mephiston.

An archon with a Talos or wraithlord would be worse. T8 2++ is tough to get through.

If you want to tank something with your archon, the best bet is Wraithguard, since you've got that sweet majority T6 to reduce the number of 2++ saves you have to make.

One that had particularly irked me was at the tail end of 5th, BA Baal predators popping smoke in their scout move, shooting in their turn and claiming a cover save in the opponents turn due to the wording of an FAQ change in the last year or so of 5E's life.

Needless to say, I avoided giving games to players trying that for the rest of the edition.




Come to think of it, most of my really memorable unpleasant games have been games against Blood Angels.

I feel like at least 50% of this thread's cheese is just people playing the rules wrong in one shape form or other >.<

 sudojoe wrote:
I feel like at least 50% of this thread's cheese is just people playing the rules wrong in one shape form or other >.<

That's what usually happens in these kinds of threads.

 sudojoe wrote:
I feel like at least 50% of this thread's cheese is just people playing Grey Knights.

Fixed your typo...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Sorginak wrote:
I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (daemon players who aren't your friends who you'll never play again) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops. I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.

Wait, Warp Quake only affects Deepstriking Deamons?

I had someone tell me It affecting all deepstrikers.even drop pods. That rule allowed his Tau to stay alive.

No, it works on everyone, it's just that Daemon players can't comprehend that it screws Drop Pod lists over too.

Or maybe, we Daemon players are so much more furious about Warp Quake because we can't get out of our pods and walk onto the table/deploy normally!

When your army is forced to Deep Strike 100% of the time, a unit ability that can be taken up to 9 times and prevents you from even putting a single model on the table does tend to cause some well deserved butthurt.

No one else in the entire game is so royally screwed over by any other rule as Daemons are by Warp Quake.
Sure you can get GK players upset by taking a Farseer, or Tyranid players bemoaning army-wide force weapons, or MEQ's decrying plasma spam, etc... But at least you still get to try and compete.
For Daemon players, going against Warp Quake simply comes down to "win first turn or don't bother playing."

Experiment 626 wrote:
If you're facing 27+27 Flamers/Screamers, Fatey AND a bunch of other FMC's, then you're playing at rediculous pts levels.

And yes, even Templars have answers, despite the age of their codex. Hiding inside your transports for example, while giving up the First Blood point means that all you lose on turn 1 is a bunch of 50'ish pts transports, then pour point-blank range rapid firing goodness into those 5++ saves.
Add a flamer or three to your army instead of always spaming meltas/plasmas. (those make a god-awful mess of freshly landed daemon!)
Bring some Land Speeders. (Heavy bolters + Asscan/Heavy flamer)
Drop Pod down some of your own squads and get the drop on him.

It's not easy, but it's doable.

I wasn't playing against 27+27, in fact he didn't have any screamers at all in that particular list. But basically he could've taken nothing but 27 flamers (he didn't have that many of those either) and he very well might've won with just those against my 1850pt list which in the meanwhile would've been able to fight at least stalemate against most other lists in the tournament, barring of course the CronAir player and possibly the DA (the new dex had just come out). Which just shows why I'm saying what I'm saying, you don't necessarily need a codex full of cheesy units to make it completely unbalanced if using the few units that indeed are over the top for their price.

Adding flamers of my own could indeed work to some limited degree against the non-FMC units, but it's not like I could even take more than one per unit, and then against MEq they'd be quite lackluster compared to plasma or melta. But since both Flamers and Screamers move 12" and I cant, they can just land out of range on turn 1 even if I had a larger amount of flamer units, and then jump in and flame me into oblivion on the next turn, rendering my flamers useless. Assuming they don't just land in range and then outright kill my flamers, which given that player's style would be more likely.

Land Speeders I had, although Typhoons. But little good does it do when two out of four die on turn 1 when Flamers land next to them and wreck them then and there. I'm very loathe to put things in reserve, because with my dice rolling they tend to show up in turn 4 when it's already too damn late.

Drop pods? Well, that only works if the demon player goes first. Which in this case he did because I won the roll and I didn't see a point in wasting a turn by going first against an empty table. But in general there's only a 50% chance of getting to go second. And drop podding against an empty table... well, that's not very helpful. I do plan on using drop pods more once I can be arsed to properly assemble all three of them, but regardless they're a questionable solution to this particular problem.

Overall a TAC BT list just can't really do it without some extreme luck. Not even against a list that's reasonable compared to a 27+27 list. I mean really, if even CronAir - that flamers/screamers can't even hit at first! - gets massacred by the demons (guess why he has those FMCs in his list!) and I get massacred by CronAir, it's saying something. With a C:SM Null Zone list I might be able to at least hold on for longer, but beyond that... who knows.

And it's funny that it all gets attributed to the player's skill rather than playing demons. Yet when I played his Khorne list with my mostly-CC orks (my shooty things being a single Dakkajet, three Deffkoptas and 10 lootas which I had to take to meet the 1000pt limit), whereas he had 2 FMCs and a Soul Grinder and then mostly Khorne Bloodletters) it was a draw, and again playing his gunline IG against my C:SM it was a 4-3 score, with him getting that one extra point from first blood because he got to go first. So yeah, clearly nothing to do with the Codex at all. Not saying he's not a good player, because he is, certainly better than I am, but given the balance variations and even the very considerable effect of luck of the dice the latter two usually play a bigger role combined than player skill as long as the opponent is at least reasonably competent.

Experiment 626 wrote:
For Daemon players, going against Warp Quake simply comes down to "win first turn or don't bother playing."

Why do daemon players keep repeating this lie?
Though most of the Daemon player whining is just that. For Warp Quake to actually "screw daemons over completely", the list needs to be specifically written to do it. While 6e has moved GK to Strike lists, Warp Quake doesn't cover Daemon players deployment zone at all, unless GK player has brought Interceptors . And even in that case, GK player must succeed in at least critical 4 psychic tests per turn (~50% chance of failure per turn) or the board will have more than enough room for to Deep Strike. And no Mishap results may result in "Misplaced", because whole.

So in the end, this "automatic win tactic" results in Daemon player being unable to deploy any forces works probably somewhere around 10% time. Now, if your opponent actually makes a list that will lose to everyone else and brings 30 Interceptors and 30 Strikes, chances are higher. But considering that Flamer/Screamer spam has far higher chances of winning against most TAC-lists than this. And quite few "anti-flamer/screamer" lists that aren't based on using Warp Quake too.

So using Flamer/Screamer spam against TAC lists is far worse than "normal" (Max 10 interceptors) levels of Warp Quake against any Daemon player.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, it works on everyone, it's just that Daemon players can't comprehend that it screws Drop Pod lists over too.

Well the difference being that daemons can "only" deep strike while armies that use drop pods don't *have* to use drop pods in every game so you don't see people relying on warp quake as consistently against non-daemon armies. Yes it will affect them, but you seldom see the TFG GK player immediately switching lists when someone says they are playing Space Wolves which *could* have drop pods like they do when they say they find out their opponent is playing daemons.

Skriker

Luide wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
For Daemon players, going against Warp Quake simply comes down to "win first turn or don't bother playing."

Why do daemon players keep repeating this lie?
Though most of the Daemon player whining is just that. For Warp Quake to actually "screw daemons over completely", the list needs to be specifically written to do it. While 6e has moved GK to Strike lists, Warp Quake doesn't cover Daemon players deployment zone at all, unless GK player has brought Interceptors . And even in that case, GK player must succeed in at least critical 4 psychic tests per turn (~50% chance of failure per turn) or the board will have more than enough room for to Deep Strike. And no Mishap results may result in "Misplaced", because whole.

So in the end, this "automatic win tactic" results in Daemon player being unable to deploy any forces works probably somewhere around 10% time. Now, if your opponent actually makes a list that will lose to everyone else and brings 30 Interceptors and 30 Strikes, chances are higher. But considering that Flamer/Screamer spam has far higher chances of winning against most TAC-lists than this. And quite few "anti-flamer/screamer" lists that aren't based on using Warp Quake too.

So using Flamer/Screamer spam against TAC lists is far worse than "normal" (Max 10 interceptors) levels of Warp Quake against any Daemon player.

"Normal" levels of Warp Quake are pretty easy to deal with honestly. I've been playing Daemons for about two years now, and in all that time I've never played a GK player that had more than one or two units capable of using Warp Quake. In all that time, with and without Flamers I've never come closer to losing than one draw. Every other game was a win for me. I think this is more due to Daemons as a rule doing well against MEQ armies. The Meta I play in doesn't run towards lots of Warp Quake, or even players that will list tailor based on what army I'm playing.

As far as Flamers and Screamers go, where is the line between using a good unit, and cheesy spamming of that unit? If the rest of the codex is lackluster (and most of it is) how can you reasonably expect a Daemon player to avoid using the few units that are good?

How about you go to a 2000 point tournament only to deal with that guy who has 12 full IG squads and 3 basalisks

Drop pods are on my list right now.

If any of you remember 4th you'll remember pod armies were difficult for a lot of people to deal with, there were a few other builds that could weather them (nidzilla, Immortal falcon eldar, fish of fury tau) but they are all dead now. In 5th you could deal with them and put your entire army in reserve and negate aspects of it, but now in 6th you are forced to put 50% of your forces down unless you're marines in drop pods or daemons. add in the fact that reserves is now 3+ on turn 2 and you've got yourself a problem.

It was after I saw two players in an elimination tournament pretty much rocking the same drop pod army, the old woes have come back, and this time around there isnt much that can deal with them.

In case you guys didnt know about drop pod tactics here's a quick run through:
-You always want to go second, it eliminates a turn of offense of your opponent while you still get a full game turn of offense.

- Cherry picking, essentially you choose where the battle takes place.

-Vulkan, makes your meltas and flamers twin linked, even with snap shots you have a higher chance to kill stuff, even fliers!

 undertow wrote:
"Normal" levels of Warp Quake are pretty easy to deal with honestly. I've been playing Daemons for about two years now, and in all that time I've never played a GK player that had more than one or two units capable of using Warp Quake. In all that time, with and without Flamers I've never come closer to losing than one draw. Every other game was a win for me. I think this is more due to Daemons as a rule doing well against MEQ armies. The Meta I play in doesn't run towards lots of Warp Quake, or even players that will list tailor based on what army I'm playing.

Good for you that you don't have to deal with the jerky GK player who has his "warp quake list" set aside only for those daemons players who he games against. What you describe sounds like a balanced GK force that isn't designed to spam warp quake specifically. The issue isn't specifically with warp quake, so much as it is about the players who think it is cool to have a separate list that uses it significantly to screw over daemons players. TFG list tailoring is the real culprit here. List tailoring in any game is irritating. We generally have one culprit like that in our Flames of War league. Most of us show up with lists to play for the day, or lists for 2 different forces to play for the day, but he waits to make his army until he is there and sees what he will be facing. Some of us play 2 armies now specifically because he will watch us in one game, challange us for the next game and tailor his force to beat the one we just played, so we just swap out forces before the game with him and he gets really upset. Always most fun when he gears up to deal with your armor and you play your infantry force instead and he has little to know artillery or weaponry geared to blowing infantry out of their foxholes or assaulting infantry in cover.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guardslayer wrote:
How about you go to a 2000 point tournament only to deal with that guy who has 12 full IG squads and 3 basalisks

What is cheesy about that? I love guard armies that are full of troops as opposed to guard armies that have almost no actually boots on the groun in favor of lots of army and vendettas.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 undertow wrote:
"Normal" levels of Warp Quake are pretty easy to deal with honestly. I've been playing Daemons for about two years now, and in all that time I've never played a GK player that had more than one or two units capable of using Warp Quake. In all that time, with and without Flamers I've never come closer to losing than one draw. Every other game was a win for me. I think this is more due to Daemons as a rule doing well against MEQ armies. The Meta I play in doesn't run towards lots of Warp Quake, or even players that will list tailor based on what army I'm playing.

Good for you that you don't have to deal with the jerky GK player who has his "warp quake list" set aside only for those daemons players who he games against. What you describe sounds like a balanced GK force that isn't designed to spam warp quake specifically. The issue isn't specifically with warp quake, so much as it is about the players who think it is cool to have a separate list that uses it significantly to screw over daemons players. TFG list tailoring is the real culprit here. List tailoring in any game is irritating. We generally have one culprit like that in our Flames of War league. Most of us show up with lists to play for the day, or lists for 2 different forces to play for the day, but he waits to make his army until he is there and sees what he will be facing. Some of us play 2 armies now specifically because he will watch us in one game, challange us for the next game and tailor his force to beat the one we just played, so we just swap out forces before the game with him and he gets really upset. Always most fun when he gears up to deal with your armor and you play your infantry force instead and he has little to know artillery or weaponry geared to blowing infantry out of their foxholes or assaulting infantry in cover.

Skriker

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guardslayer wrote:
How about you go to a 2000 point tournament only to deal with that guy who has 12 full IG squads and 3 basalisks

What is cheesy about that? I love guard armies that are full of troops as opposed to guard armies that have almost no actually boots on the groun in favor of lots of army and vendettas.

Skriker

To add to the list of misery...

How about all those netlisters who troll along for power lists and then end up with TAC's lists looking like;
Coteaz
3x Henchmen groups of Acolytes/Banishers
3x 10 man Strikes
2x 10 man 'Ceptors
3x Pysfleman dreads
6x Psybacks

It's a TAC's list that no Daemon army has a hope in hell of ever beating unless you go first and can wipe-out pretty much anything that's not in a transport. (when it shoots back, it's not pretty just how fast those daemons die.)

You don't *need* to list taylor to screw over Daemon players. (although plenty of GK donkeycaves do list tailor when they see Daemons)
Just take 20+ Strikes with at least 10 'Ceptors and go first... Makes every Daemon player cry, and works wonders alongside a mainly Termie list since it brings numbers.