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Dude again just post your freaking list and get it over with. The personal attacks make you look petty.

I know how good demons list were in 5th. Heck the only list i ever feared was mono-tzeentch demons with tons of flamers

Firstborn wrote:
It's now time to put up, or shut up.

 Sasori wrote:
Fact of the matter is, you still have not provided those lists, and any major tournament results. Since your friend did attend Feast of Blades though, it would be nice if you would provide the requested information I asked for earlier in my post.

Firstborn, will you be putting up or shutting up?

Wish people would talk about cheesy stuff they've seen at games.. :( Or stories about TFG.

 Iron Dragon wrote:
Wish people would talk about cheesy stuff they've seen at games.. :( Or stories about TFG.

My ultimate personal cheese ball moment was actually in WHFB i took two warp lightning cannons in a 1000 pt game against a newbie. I am now deservedly harassed for this.

 Iron Dragon wrote:
Wish people would talk about cheesy stuff they've seen at games.. :( Or stories about TFG.

Man, sorry about people hijacking the crap out of your post.

So onto something that I used to find cheesy (or at least frustrating to play against).

Back in 4th edition there was a guy that used to bring a Nidzilla army. That was back when I was first starting and only had Tau that I was god awful with.

Just always was a bad feeling when I see that the only thing left on my half of the table is his army haha!

 captain collius wrote:
Dude again just post your freaking list and get it over with. The personal attacks make you look petty.

I know how good demons list were in 5th. Heck the only list i ever feared was mono-tzeentch demons with tons of flamers

Guys, just stop feeding the Troll...



Yes Fatecrusher was solid...
...At least until it met with a non-noob Draigowing or Henchman list that included at least 10 Interceptors and/or Strikes.

Then that Fatecrusher list was more like a 'Fits-of-laughting-at-crusher' list because those absolutely massive Deep Strike footprints of 8 'Crushers + Jugger Herald couldn't avoid the quake-bubbles. (or had to land well away and then spent at least the next 1-2 turns or more getting shot to gak while making up the lost ground.)

Bad players & Noobs took 100% Pally + Psyfleman lists.
Smart players took a solid Deathstar of Pallies + 3x Psyflemen and then added other supporting units to give their force more flexibility and some staying power.

 Manchu wrote:

Firstborn wrote:
It's now time to put up, or shut up.

 Sasori wrote:
Fact of the matter is, you still have not provided those lists, and any major tournament results. Since your friend did attend Feast of Blades though, it would be nice if you would provide the requested information I asked for earlier in my post.

Firstborn, will you be putting up or shutting up?

Manchu, are you on Vassal?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Dude again just post your freaking list and get it over with. The personal attacks make you look petty.

I know how good demons list were in 5th. Heck the only list i ever feared was mono-tzeentch demons with tons of flamers

Guys, just stop feeding the Troll...



Yes Fatecrusher was solid...
...At least until it met with a non-noob Draigowing or Henchman list that included at least 10 Interceptors and/or Strikes.

Then that Fatecrusher list was more like a 'Fits-of-laughting-at-crusher' list because those absolutely massive Deep Strike footprints of 8 'Crushers + Jugger Herald couldn't avoid the quake-bubbles. (or had to land well away and then spent at least the next 1-2 turns or more getting shot to gak while making up the lost ground.)

Bad players & Noobs took 100% Pally + Psyfleman lists.
Smart players took a solid Deathstar of Pallies + 3x Psyflemen and then added other supporting units to give their force more flexibility and some staying power.

More flexibility yes, but 1-2 instances of Warpquake isn't going to save you. You are talking to the wrong person if you are trying to "educate" me about the Daemon\Grey Knight matchup.

Firstborn wrote:
Manchu, are you on Vassal?

Nope. And it's not relevant. You have been asked to post this amazing list you run. Will you do it or not? If not, why not?

 Manchu wrote:

Firstborn wrote:
Manchu, are you on Vassal?

Nope. And it's not relevant. You have been asked to post this amazing list you run. Will you do it or not? If not, why not?

Hoping to maintain unoffensiveness, it does seem unlikely, considering all of his argument has been based on the template of:

-Bluster
-Sweeping Generalization
-Bluster
-Unbacked bragging

-Other user posts

-Defensive bluster
-Personal attack

Rinse and repeat.

I'd love to see this list, though. It sounds amazing.

Firstborn wrote:


Local tournaments don't count? Why is that? Our top local guy went to Feast of Blades in Chicago and beat the guy that took first. Care to play? I am Firstborn on Vassal.

You played a lot of 5th, but you don't even know about Fatecrusher? I used to destroy Draigo Wing builds with it. Just flat out annihilate them in assault.

Thats a neat trick, pics or it didnt happen.

Seriously guys, go start your own thread debating if Fatecrusher could beat x list.

Hell, I'll even start it for you if you want me to.


Until then, how about you don't flood a thread started by someone friendly joking about cheese stuff with crap nobody wants to read about but yourselves.

 rabid1903 wrote:
Until then, how about you don't flood a thread started by someone friendly joking about cheese stuff with crap nobody wants to read about but yourselves.

Chill. Firstborn is talking about a cheesy list beating an even cheesier list. It is exactly on-topic.

Manchu wrote:

 rabid1903 wrote:
Until then, how about you don't flood a thread started by someone friendly joking about cheese stuff with crap nobody wants to read about but yourselves.

Chill. Firstborn is talking about a cheesy list beating an even cheesier list. It is exactly on-topic.

Pretty much this.

rabid1903 wrote:Seriously guys, go start your own thread debating if Fatecrusher could beat x list.

Hell, I'll even start it for you if you want me to.


Until then, how about you don't flood a thread started by someone friendly joking about cheese stuff with crap nobody wants to read about but yourselves.

Not to mention, you know you can't actually tell other users what to do, right? I mean, Mods and Admins can, but I don't think regular users can.

I'm requesting that we return to what was intended by the opening post, not ordering or anything like that.

Having a thread hijacked is incredibly frustrating, and you might not know that you're doing it. Friendly reminders were given multiple times by the original poster and a few others.


Unfortunately, text doesn't translate that I'm actually very calm. After seeing friendly reminders not working though, and that the only posts that were getting attention were the ones that sounded more hostile; I adjusted my tactics. Worst of all, that was the post that got a response.

I'm leaving the thread now, you can say what you want. I just wanted people to realize what had happened.

From the looks of things all this banter/arguing can be stopped with such little effort from one or two persons

It looks like we need some emergancy cheese so I'll offer what little rations I have, it's not really the same but here we go!

The other week I played out a game by myself to do a battle report for my college article, the theme was that 4 Space Marines were rescuing civilians that had been stranded on a planet where groups of Orks live and some forces of Chaos.

6 Orks v.s 4 Space Marines, from what I read they only do well in groups, they took down two Marines thanks to lucky dice rolls, brought in some Chaos Cultists, they took them down too thanks to lucky dice rolls, only ended the game by deciding to bring a Helbrute onto the table.

It's cheesy how good the Orks did that game, expected the Marines to slaughter them and have an awesome last effort fight against the Chaos Cultists.

Never diss the Orks!

Seriously play drop pod armies, they are the cheddar.

And Im fairly certain berzerkers cant stand up to a hail of bolter fire and twin linked flamers/ meltas on a flank and still hope to swing properly at full force.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Firstborn wrote:


Local tournaments don't count? Why is that? Our top local guy went to Feast of Blades in Chicago and beat the guy that took first. Care to play? I am Firstborn on Vassal.

You played a lot of 5th, but you don't even know about Fatecrusher? I used to destroy Draigo Wing builds with it. Just flat out annihilate them in assault.

Thats a neat trick, pics or it didnt happen.

To carry on with my point:

If you charged a full 10 man paladin squad with your 8 bloodcrushers, and lets assume you magically took zero casualties from shooting despite their slow speed, and lets also assume fateweaver didnt take 4 master crafted psycannons, and numerous S5 bolter shots to the face that you managed to charge paladins that were standing in the open otherwise you're I1, and lets assume there is zero halbreds after all that you get what? 32 attacks on the charge, 16 hits, 14 wounds. 2 will be ignored by the stave, lets say 6 are ignored from swords and I'll give it to you the rest go in and that Draigo didnt make it in combat. Thats 6 wounds spread out over 10 2 wound models. Paladins hammerhand up back with draigos, along with the banner and counter attack you're looking at 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, after rerolls from fateweaver (who magically is still within 6") you're still looking at 7 wounds + daemon bane. Next round you lose your strength and attack bonus, and you have to deal with Draigo in the mix.

There is alot of "if's" in there for the Blood crushers to be swinging at full blast and there isnt a chance in hell you're sweep paladins.

The story is alot different now in 6th, you wouldnt even do a dent on the armour.

 Manchu wrote:

Firstborn wrote:
Manchu, are you on Vassal?

Nope. And it's not relevant. You have been asked to post this amazing list you run. Will you do it or not? If not, why not?

I will guess "not", but without any explanation. Just more bluster.

Sadly the current cheese really is flamer spam. At the 1500 - 1750 level, which is most UK tournaments, they can max on them without losing anything elsewhere, and you cant take enough to tip the balance.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Seriously play drop pod armies, they are the cheddar.

And Im fairly certain berzerkers cant stand up to a hail of bolter fire and twin linked flamers/ meltas on a flank and still hope to swing properly at full force.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Firstborn wrote:


Local tournaments don't count? Why is that? Our top local guy went to Feast of Blades in Chicago and beat the guy that took first. Care to play? I am Firstborn on Vassal.

You played a lot of 5th, but you don't even know about Fatecrusher? I used to destroy Draigo Wing builds with it. Just flat out annihilate them in assault.

Thats a neat trick, pics or it didnt happen.

To carry on with my point:

If you charged a full 10 man paladin squad with your 8 bloodcrushers, and lets assume you magically took zero casualties from shooting despite their slow speed, and lets also assume fateweaver didnt take 4 master crafted psycannons, and numerous S5 bolter shots to the face that you managed to charge paladins that were standing in the open otherwise you're I1, and lets assume there is zero halbreds after all that you get what? 32 attacks on the charge, 16 hits, 14 wounds. 2 will be ignored by the stave, lets say 6 are ignored from swords and I'll give it to you the rest go in and that Draigo didnt make it in combat. Thats 6 wounds spread out over 10 2 wound models. Paladins hammerhand up back with draigos, along with the banner and counter attack you're looking at 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, after rerolls from fateweaver (who magically is still within 6") you're still looking at 7 wounds + daemon bane. Next round you lose your strength and attack bonus, and you have to deal with Draigo in the mix.

There is alot of "if's" in there for the Blood crushers to be swinging at full blast and there isnt a chance in hell you're sweep paladins.

The story is alot different now in 6th, you wouldnt even do a dent on the armour.

The story changes considerably with 3 units of 8x Bloodcrushers supported by a Bloodthirster with blessing\might and Fateweaver. I win the assault every time, and I would confidently take on 2 bricks of 10x Paladins
with that setup. It is nastier than you can imagine.

The math has been broken down before, Blackmoor has been involved, and I have played the matchup countless times.

The one thing we can agree on (back on topic), are drop pod lists are cheedar. Especially with Ashmantle in a Lucious pod. It really is the best that the vanilla marine codex can put out right now, but it is very abusive
against most other armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Firstborn wrote:
Manchu, are you on Vassal?

Nope. And it's not relevant. You have been asked to post this amazing list you run. Will you do it or not? If not, why not?

I will guess "not", but without any explanation. Just more bluster.

Sadly the current cheese really is flamer spam. At the 1500 - 1750 level, which is most UK tournaments, they can max on them without losing anything elsewhere, and you cant take enough to tip the balance.

Yes, flamers & screamers are the current daemon power list. I actually developed the list and was playing it locally before Nick took 2nd at Nova with it.

It is a very powerful list, and if folks are using it in casual games they should be burned at the stake. Generally, I recommend using no more than 1 unit of each in friendly games. This is where players
need to use some common sense when playing with friends. I know everyone wants to win, but it is just abusive to spam nothing but flamers and screamers unless you are playing in a competitive
tournament.

The one thing we can agree on (back on topic), are drop pod lists are cheedar. Especially with Ashmantle in a Lucious pod. It really is the best that the vanilla marine codex can put out right now, but it is very abusive
against most other armies.

Because something that costs two slots (HQ & fast attack) Is over 300 points, that can be beaten by a single Hive Tyrant, kitted out Chaos lord, or anyone who has any equivalent of MC's, it's great if people don't know how to bubble rap or how to actually use the castle doctrine to fight it...You know, people who plan out how to fight them, and can think of how to beat alternative lists.

The story changes considerably with 3 units of 8x Bloodcrushers supported by a Bloodthirster with blessing\might and Fateweaver. I win the assault every time, and I would confidently take on 2 bricks of 10x Paladins
with that setup. It is nastier than you can imagine.

The math has been broken down before, Blackmoor has been involved, and I have played the matchup countless times.

That big a footprint is easily going to be broken by anyone with..Y'know, actual smarts, or who have actually fought things that deepstrike.That point cost also the equivalent of 1568 points. Literally an entire list that your not getting off on the first turn due to daemonic assault so it'll be coming down in piecemeal. So yeah, still waiting on that list you were bragging about.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The one thing we can agree on (back on topic), are drop pod lists are cheedar. Especially with Ashmantle in a Lucious pod. It really is the best that the vanilla marine codex can put out right now, but it is very abusive
against most other armies.

Because something that costs two slots (HQ & fast attack) Is over 300 points, that can be beaten by a single Hive Tyrant, kitted out Chaos lord, or anyone who has any equivalent of MC's, it's great if people don't know how to bubble rap or how to actually use the castle doctrine to fight it...You know, people who plan out how to fight them, and can think of how to beat alternative lists.

The story changes considerably with 3 units of 8x Bloodcrushers supported by a Bloodthirster with blessing\might and Fateweaver. I win the assault every time, and I would confidently take on 2 bricks of 10x Paladins
with that setup. It is nastier than you can imagine.

The math has been broken down before, Blackmoor has been involved, and I have played the matchup countless times.

That big a footprint is easily going to be broken by anyone with..Y'know, actual smarts, or who have actually fought things that deepstrike.That point cost also the equivalent of 1568 points. Literally an entire list that your not getting off on the first turn due to daemonic assault so it'll be coming down in piecemeal. So yeah, still waiting on that list you were bragging about.

You sir, are an armchair general. I eat guys like you for lunch.

A ben franklin says you haven't dealt with either of these 2 lists you are theory hammering over your keyboard. I have played them in the trenches, many times, where the rubber meats the road.

That's the difference between you and me.

Your arguments also fall flat. Bubble wrap is ineffective against a skilled Vulkan drop pod player, and a large footprint would be the least of your worries if you faced my Fatecrusher daemons.
Not to mention all 3x 8 Bloodcrushers, the Blood Thirster, and Fateweaver almost always show up turn 1. Because they are 50% of my 2k list. You need to re-read how daemonic assault works.

Your arguments also fall flat. Bubble wrap is ineffective against a skilled Vulkan drop pod player, and a large footprint would be the least of your worries if you faced my Fatecrusher daemons.
Not to mention all 3x 8 Bloodcrushers, the Blood Thirster, and Fateweaver almost always show up turn 1. Because they are 50% of my 2k list. You need to re-read how daemonic assault works.

According to the points total, that's 75% of your list if its 2k as its 1568 (Where's that list btw? There's about 400 points left to go, just a little more and that will be the rest! )

You sir, are an armchair general. I eat guys like you for lunch.

A ben franklin says you haven't dealt with either of these 2 lists you are theory hammering over your keyboard. I have played them in the trenches, many times, where the rubber meats the road.

That's the difference between you and me.

..You are just to comical, you know that right. You're like a politician throwing out buzzwords in an effort to detract from statements.

I like how there are trenches where rubber is a meat, and is on a road apparently.

Honestly firstborn your coming off as a troll, and if you are actually serious about this you could post some actual evidence.

Firstborn wrote:
You sir, are an armchair general. I eat guys like you for lunch.

More bluster, with no proof

Firstborn wrote:A ben franklin says you haven't dealt with either of these 2 lists you are theory hammering over your keyboard. I have played them in the trenches, many times, where the rubber meats the road.

Trenches have rubber in them now? And roads?

Firstborn wrote:That's the difference between you and me.

WEll there is one difference between you two....

Firstborn wrote:Your arguments also fall flat. Bubble wrap is ineffective against a skilled Vulkan drop pod player

Please post that vulkan / ashborn list then. We've pointed out the issues and so far all we've heard is "well a skiled player...". There is only so much a skilled player with drop pods can do against castle, in 5th or 6th, when it is a castle done well.

Firstborn wrote:, and a large footprint would be the least of your worries if you faced my Fatecrusher daemons.

Not if you want all 3 units to be in range of fateweaver it isnt. Warpquake does ruin your day, when it is two units of 5 strikes blocking a good portion of the board from you, turn one, apart from where the GK player wants you to go.

Firstborn wrote:Not to mention all 3x 8 Bloodcrushers, the Blood Thirster, and Fateweaver almost always show up turn 1. Because they are 50% of my 2k list. You need to re-read how daemonic assault works.

Please, post the lest, to see how original your list is

Oh, and as to your "I invented that list" re flamers and screamers. No, you didnt. You came up with the same list that about 1,000 people did when they saw the sheer points decrease of flamers and relatively increased power of them in 6th, witht eh de-mech meta. So please, post the list you created, so we can show prior "art"

In fact, post any actual list, with any actual proof you have to back up your claims. So far you have done nothing but be an insulting troll.

Ashmantle... interesting. However as both it and Lucius are FW, that quite restricts their use. Even that aside while it does seem powerful I don't necessarily see it as overpowered for the cost (in both points as well as taking up two FOC slots). This from an "armchair general" point of view of course, not having used them or seen them used. But there are things that can deal with a unit like that. Of course, a lot of them can only do so if it happens to win a combat at the end of its controlling player's turn so that it can be shot at.

Anyway, one extra-cheesy trick to pull is to agree on a "friendly" game and then the opponent pulling 3 flyers on you knowing full well you don't have any. Flyers in question being Void Ravens, to be exact. Which then of course blow you to smithereens without you being able to even touch them.

Well if some people don't want to respond with their actual list
I don't know if this counts but seeing my friend hide approximately 16 paladins (i'm not sure of the exact number but this is close enough) in a single piece of area terrain with draigo and a librarian and a techamarine and grant himself a 2+++ cover.

Coincidenty his cheddar failed to TH/SS

 captain collius wrote:
Well if some people don't want to respond with their actual list
I don't know if this counts but seeing my friend hide approximately 16 paladins (i'm not sure of the exact number but this is close enough) in a single piece of area terrain with draigo and a librarian and a techamarine and grant himself a 2+++ cover.

Coincidenty his cheddar failed to TH/SS

How did he get 2++?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Well if some people don't want to respond with their actual list
I don't know if this counts but seeing my friend hide approximately 16 paladins (i'm not sure of the exact number but this is close enough) in a single piece of area terrain with draigo and a librarian and a techamarine and grant himself a 2+++ cover.

Coincidenty his cheddar failed to TH/SS

How did he get 2++?

Reinforced ruins with the Librarian casting Shrouding.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Well if some people don't want to respond with their actual list
I don't know if this counts but seeing my friend hide approximately 16 paladins (i'm not sure of the exact number but this is close enough) in a single piece of area terrain with draigo and a librarian and a techamarine and grant himself a 2+++ cover.

Coincidenty his cheddar failed to TH/SS

How did he get 2++?

Reinforced ruins with the Librarian casting Shrouding.

Yep. Turtling at its finest

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Well if some people don't want to respond with their actual list
I don't know if this counts but seeing my friend hide approximately 16 paladins (i'm not sure of the exact number but this is close enough) in a single piece of area terrain with draigo and a librarian and a techamarine and grant himself a 2+++ cover.

Coincidenty his cheddar failed to TH/SS

How did he get 2++?

Im pretty positive it was a large ruin, reinforced by thr tech marine. And the libby gives stealth or something like that, iirc.

Firstborn wrote:

Dakka is a really $hitty place to have a rational discussion. There are always armchair generals out there with big finecast penis's that like to talk tough..

I've had a few rational discussions with people, but usually this is what comes to mind...

For what it's worth, I have found fatecrusher to still be awesome in 6th. This is even moreso given the shift to infantry based armies.