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Personally I think the Masque using the Pervane of Slaanesh (Is that the right one?). Three shots all at separate units and then forcing them to move and make a formation as you choose. And that it even gets snap shots off and can just utterly ruin an assault phase

Or Flamers of Tzeentch in general. Hell just deep striking them before was nasty, now with the wall of death and them being two wounds they are bastards

 Watchersinthedark wrote:
Personally I think the Masque using the Pervane of Slaanesh (Is that the right one?). Three shots all at separate units and then forcing them to move and make a formation as you choose. And that it even gets snap shots off and can just utterly ruin an assault phase

Or Flamers of Tzeentch in general. Hell just deep striking them before was nasty, now with the wall of death and them being two wounds they are bastards

Really? You think a T3/W2 non-character model that is always on her little 'ol lonesome is super cheesey?!
Pavane is nowhere near as OTT as Lash was, and outside of a MoS Prince, it never hits on better than a 3+

As for Flamers, for their original 35pts/model cost, they damn better have been able to do something considering how easy they were to kill! Now? Sure, if you're facing 15-18+ in games under 2k pts they're evil, despicable things. But one unit of 9 or a pair of 4-5 strong units is hardly cause to b about them.
Wall of Death is cheesey? How about you try multi-assault them with 2+ units, or throw a horde unit of 25-30+ grunts at them. Or just bring some anti-infantry guns of your own like more bolters/flamers/multi-shot guns, etc...



Unless you're saying that us Daemon players should never be allowed to stand a chance at competing...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Watchersinthedark wrote:
Personally I think the Masque using the Pervane of Slaanesh (Is that the right one?). Three shots all at separate units and then forcing them to move and make a formation as you choose. And that it even gets snap shots off and can just utterly ruin an assault phase

Or Flamers of Tzeentch in general. Hell just deep striking them before was nasty, now with the wall of death and them being two wounds they are bastards

Really? You think a T3/W2 non-character model that is always on her little 'ol lonesome is super cheesey?!
Pavane is nowhere near as OTT as Lash was, and outside of a MoS Prince, it never hits on better than a 3+

As for Flamers, for their original 35pts/model cost, they damn better have been able to do something considering how easy they were to kill! Now? Sure, if you're facing 15-18+ in games under 2k pts they're evil, despicable things. But one unit of 9 or a pair of 4-5 strong units is hardly cause to b about them.

What makes the masque so good is that she can manipulate your opponents models. In 6th edition, this has a much greater effect than in 5th edition. These are some ways I have abused it in 6th.
* Grouped units together to maximize flamer coverage
* Pulled special weapons to front of unit so they are removed first as casualities
* Pulled Null Zone Librarian to front of unit so he is forced to make LoS saves
* Moved units out of difficult terrain so I am not striking on init 1
* Pulled units out of quarters (for NOVA missions) during the final turn, allowing me to secure primary objective and winning the mission.
* Moved models within assault range of my bloodcrushers.

Also, the masque becomes significantly more durable when put near fateweaver. At that point she goes from a 3++ to 8/9 chance of saving, meaning you need to do ~18 wounds to kill her. That's when shes at her most PITA.

For 100 points the masque is an amazingly good character. I take her whenever she can fit into a CSM/CD army.

I'm not saying The Mask isn't good - she most certainly is.

But honestly, she's pretty damn easy to counter and very difficult to effectively hide. Even a 10-man Tac squad can kill her a single round of shooting with a bit of luck.
And as you point out, she does kinda rely on Fatey's re-rolls to really shine, which effectively bring her upto 433pts cost to take full advantage of her abilities!

I've seen the Mask used too many times by bad players to think she's honestly cheese of anykind.

A real "cheesey" unit makes up for a player's lack of skill. (such as Purifyers in 5th due to being 'uber shooty while also being assaulty everything killers with Clensing Flame +cheap I6!) On the other hand, the Mask requires a good deal of skill to be a worthwhile investment.

About the whole Ashmantle in Lucius Assault Drop Pod.

"Immune to Melta!"
"Immune to Lance!"
"AV 13!"

A Wraithlord CAN make short work of Ashmantle.

Wraithguards WILL make short work of Ashmantle.

Granted it's a good list against the majority of the Meta but hardly broken given an old overcosted codex can give it a run for it's money.

Experiment 626 wrote:
And as you point out, she does kinda rely on Fatey's re-rolls to really shine, which effectively bring her upto 433pts cost to take full advantage of her abilities!

A real "cheesey" unit makes up for a player's lack of skill. (such as Purifyers in 5th due to being 'uber shooty while also being assaulty everything killers with Clensing Flame +cheap I6!) On the other hand, the Mask requires a good deal of skill to be a worthwhile investment.

Well, lets be fair here. Fateweaver also brings a lot more to the table than just buffing masque

I agree that Masque takes some skill to use correctly. I'm not sure on the theory that 'cheesey' means a lack of skill is required. Some of the most abusive things in this game are combos that take a bit of skill/planning to pull off.

One example would be a grey hunter squad popping a wolf banner, then taking every AP3 hit onto a wolf guard in terminator armor, which causes every hit to bounce right off. Another would be taking skullcrusher next to fateweaver and using him to tank 10 paladins with his 35/36 chance of saving.

Those are incredible 'exploits', but are not easy.

Currently in the game today I think the 'cheeziest' unit is the beast pack of cheese. To play this well takes some skill, but its stupidly good for how cheap it is.

Really? You think a T3/W2 non-character model that is always on her little 'ol lonesome is super cheesey?!
Pavane is nowhere near as OTT as Lash was, and outside of a MoS Prince, it never hits on better than a 3+

As for Flamers, for their original 35pts/model cost, they damn better have been able to do something considering how easy they were to kill! Now? Sure, if you're facing 15-18+ in games under 2k pts they're evil, despicable things. But one unit of 9 or a pair of 4-5 strong units is hardly cause to b about them.
Wall of Death is cheesey? How about you try multi-assault them with 2+ units, or throw a horde unit of 25-30+ grunts at them. Or just bring some anti-infantry guns of your own like more bolters/flamers/multi-shot guns, etc...



Unless you're saying that us Daemon players should never be allowed to stand a chance at competing...

Well first off, Masque isn't one of the characters that you just use by herself. I've been seeing a lot of Masque followed by heavy weapons murder. When she lands and manages to pull a few squads into the wide open or even just brings them into rapid fire/assault range she's already made her points back.

As for the wall of death part, sure that's fine until it's a wall of no armour saves allowed...then yeah it kinda becomes cheese. Yeah you could multi assault them or run hordes, but that happens to be the strength of those particular tactics. It's hard to multi assault when one of your units got turned into barbecue, or when 3 units of flamers just wrecked whatever they could find. Not to mention that 3 models for what? 90 or 100 points that can murder an entire squad in one go then likely save 50% of whatever comes at them and happens to be eternal warrior fits nicely into that box.

Daemons do need an update, but I still see them holding their own quite often at my FLGS. Seems to be mostly Khorne, Nurgle/Tzeentch players here though. Only really ever see Masque as part of an allies force. And then you have to hope you have something with interceptor or you're gonna lose a couple units.

I'm not sure on the theory that 'cheesey' means a lack of skill is required. Some of the most abusive things in this game are combos that take a bit of skill/planning to pull off.

I agree there man. In all reality, every army has something that could easily be considered cheese. It's just some of them require a lot more skill to pull off then others

Dear dark ones, these are all great!
I ran into someone trying to do one at a tournie the other day and by god he almost looked liking crying when I pointed out it was illegal.

He was playing Tau. and He swan dived an Etheral off the top of a Watchtower.
He had most of his force hidden in Devilfish Transports or buildings. What he didn't mainly ran (I think he was unlucky enough to have 4 out of 5 of the units run) anyway.
Afterwards he pops out his force thinking it had preferred enemy for me to almostly gleefully inform him that only Tau units that passed the test have preferred enemy.

Poor boy looked like crying as he reread his codex too see the exact wording.

 Dand218 wrote:
Dear dark ones, these are all great!
I ran into someone trying to do one at a tournie the other day and by god he almost looked liking crying when I pointed out it was illegal.

He was playing Tau. and He swan dived an Etheral off the top of a Watchtower.
He had most of his force hidden in Devilfish Transports or buildings. What he didn't mainly ran (I think he was unlucky enough to have 4 out of 5 of the units run) anyway.
Afterwards he pops out his force thinking it had preferred enemy for me to almostly gleefully inform him that only Tau units that passed the test have preferred enemy.

Poor boy looked like crying as he reread his codex too see the exact wording.

The exact wording that would show that he was right, and that you were wrong?

The codex is very explicit that it applies pass or fail to all tau who take the test. It doesn't apply to the guys in the transports as per the FAQ, but the ones that fled are still Preferred Enemy.

Of course, the real problem is that he'd have to swan-dive at least twice as Dangerous Terrain only takes 1 wound off on a failure, no matter how high you fall from.

Chrysis wrote:

The exact wording that would show that he was right, and that you were wrong?

The codex is very explicit that it applies pass or fail to all tau who take the test. It doesn't apply to the guys in the transports as per the FAQ, but the ones that fled are still Preferred Enemy.

Of course, the real problem is that he'd have to swan-dive at least twice as Dangerous Terrain only takes 1 wound off on a failure, no matter how high you fall from.

I meant he misunderstood. He thought the ones in the Transport got it, which as you said the FAQ cleared that issue up.
We both agreed both the ones that fled and stayed had preferred enemy.
Follow me?

And I may have sniped him or something. I only remember it was during my first turn.