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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Gotta admit, I’m staggered that ammo can even be that old. Guess I always assumed ammo tended to be used rather than stored.

   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 catbarf wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Steel ammo probably will go dodgy far earlier simply because steel corrodes.


Brass corrodes too, and steel ammunition is normally lacquered both to protect against corrosion and to facilitate extraction.

Soviet ammo was almost all steel-cased and was intended to last indefinitely in arsenal storage. Most of it still works fine today.


Also true, however the germans weren't that thourough with their steel ammo....unlike the soviets which planned with it from the beginning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Gotta admit, I’m staggered that ammo can even be that old. Guess I always assumed ammo tended to be used rather than stored.


Generally, if the military budget is in question over here atleast, yes ammo get's used up, even if that means that the conscripts get to shoot 5 times a week rather than 2 or 3 times. Gotta make sure that the state pays for the next batch of ammo. Atleast it's fun going to the range though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 15:52:00


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
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GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Gotta admit, I’m staggered that ammo can even be that old. Guess I always assumed ammo tended to be used rather than stored.


There are militias in north and east Africa currently armed with WW2-era German MP44 rifles, supplied by the Soviets, using ammunition that was made alongside the rifles in the 40s.

It can last a long, long time- depending on your tolerance for less-than-perfect functionality.

Not Online!!! wrote:Also true, however the germans weren't that thourough with their steel ammo....unlike the soviets which planned with it from the beginning.


You are 100% correct. All depends on how it's made and treated.

   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 catbarf wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Gotta admit, I’m staggered that ammo can even be that old. Guess I always assumed ammo tended to be used rather than stored.


There are militias in north and east Africa currently armed with WW2-era German MP44 rifles, supplied by the Soviets, using ammunition that was made alongside the rifles in the 40s.


So sad we can't make a trip there to save those old relics. I'd pay good cash to snag and save a handful of those things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 catbarf wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Steel ammo probably will go dodgy far earlier simply because steel corrodes.


Brass corrodes too, and steel ammunition is normally lacquered both to protect against corrosion and to facilitate extraction.

Soviet ammo was almost all steel-cased and was intended to last indefinitely in arsenal storage. Most of it still works fine today.


Also true, however the germans weren't that thourough with their steel ammo....unlike the soviets which planned with it from the beginning.


The soviets also stored their ammo in sealed cans.



Airtight from the factory so it will last basically forever. I've got a couple of these myself. Under normal circumstances its a good value for buying in bulk, though ammo of all types is hard to get nowadays. This sort of stuff flooded the market after the Cold War as the various former combloc countries sold their inventories on the free market to get some quick cash. And i believe that the Russians still make and sell ammo in these type of storage containers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 04:57:03


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

Not Online!!! wrote:
 catbarf wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Steel ammo probably will go dodgy far earlier simply because steel corrodes.


Brass corrodes too, and steel ammunition is normally lacquered both to protect against corrosion and to facilitate extraction.

Soviet ammo was almost all steel-cased and was intended to last indefinitely in arsenal storage. Most of it still works fine today.


Also true, however the germans weren't that thourough with their steel ammo....unlike the soviets which planned with it from the beginning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Gotta admit, I’m staggered that ammo can even be that old. Guess I always assumed ammo tended to be used rather than stored.


Generally, if the military budget is in question over here atleast, yes ammo get's used up, even if that means that the conscripts get to shoot 5 times a week rather than 2 or 3 times. Gotta make sure that the state pays for the next batch of ammo. Atleast it's fun going to the range though.


In every unit I was ever in, the mass expenditure of ammo at the range was referred to as the G.A.C., or Great American Cook-off. Burning up the 12 gauge ammo with the pumps was the most fun, I'd be handing back an empty shotgun while a full one was being handed to me over my other shoulder.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





No luxury sooting over here, you get your STGW 90 (or variant of it) and the mags and you will learn how to hit a target 300m out without any help or so help me god.

Also an alternative before my time was sneaking disposal via lake.... yeah....
Conscripts do wierd gak mate. Conscripts do wierd gak.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 08:38:15


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

Not Online!!! wrote:
No luxury sooting over here, you get your STGW 90 (or variant of it) and the mags and you will learn how to hit a target 300m out without any help or so help me god.

Also an alternative before my time was sneaking disposal via lake.... yeah....
Conscripts do wierd gak mate. Conscripts do wierd gak.


I'm not saying that we don't focus on proficiency, I'm saying every now and then command decides it doesn't want to turn in any live ammo, or has been given specific instructions for complete expenditure. I remember one time they had tons of 7.62 belted that needed burned up and they pulled 6 M60s out of a vault to aid in the GAC.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Just Tony wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
No luxury sooting over here, you get your STGW 90 (or variant of it) and the mags and you will learn how to hit a target 300m out without any help or so help me god.

Also an alternative before my time was sneaking disposal via lake.... yeah....
Conscripts do wierd gak mate. Conscripts do wierd gak.


I'm not saying that we don't focus on proficiency, I'm saying every now and then command decides it doesn't want to turn in any live ammo, or has been given specific instructions for complete expenditure. I remember one time they had tons of 7.62 belted that needed burned up and they pulled 6 M60s out of a vault to aid in the GAC.


it's not about proficency, it's about the "occaisional" lackluster quality of the conscripts and the clear point to just waste the ammo to maintain the budget as is
It's also a joke about my time as a recruit... we had people that were unable even after 2 such weeks for ammo expenditure to not hit their own targets and instead shot the next ones to them.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

Not Online!!! wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
No luxury sooting over here, you get your STGW 90 (or variant of it) and the mags and you will learn how to hit a target 300m out without any help or so help me god.

Also an alternative before my time was sneaking disposal via lake.... yeah....
Conscripts do wierd gak mate. Conscripts do wierd gak.


I'm not saying that we don't focus on proficiency, I'm saying every now and then command decides it doesn't want to turn in any live ammo, or has been given specific instructions for complete expenditure. I remember one time they had tons of 7.62 belted that needed burned up and they pulled 6 M60s out of a vault to aid in the GAC.


it's not about proficency, it's about the "occaisional" lackluster quality of the conscripts and the clear point to just waste the ammo to maintain the budget as is
It's also a joke about my time as a recruit... we had people that were unable even after 2 such weeks for ammo expenditure to not hit their own targets and instead shot the next ones to them.



Wow.

I don't have the words...

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Well, i'd rather go on ammo expenditure for 3 weeks in a row, compared to ÜW. (survival week).
also shooting is fun at the ranges and it did help with accuracy of some people to even be able to hit a target at 300m, others got the best ratings in the year, so it wasn't really waste, just the internal logic of a militia conscript system applied under budgetary pressure to use the ammo up.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So how long does it take for ammo to go dodgy?

In the video I shared, WW2 sounds pretty obvious for being dodgy. But are we talking a few years, a decade?


Stored away from air and moisture ammo is good nearly indefinitely. Some of the primers May degrade. I shot WW2 surplus 303 about 10 or 7 years ago with 100% fires. I’ve never run across WWI 303 but mostly I think that’s because ww2 happened and the commonwealth continued to use SMLEs for another 50 years in various nations.

In regards to KY ballistics catastrophic failure it seems pretty likely he got ahold of some counterfeit Slap rounds that were either overcharged (likely) or undercharged, Mark Serbu the designer of that gun and generally a good firearms resource anyway pointed out that the rounds KYB sent pictures of are not crimped. SLAP rounds are produced by Olin for the government and are always crimped. Mark talks about other nonsense in this video but it’s a good break down of the arguments going on on ARF and Reddit right now.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=na1Qo7FxDeM


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
No luxury sooting over here, you get your STGW 90 (or variant of it) and the mags and you will learn how to hit a target 300m out without any help or so help me god.

Also an alternative before my time was sneaking disposal via lake.... yeah....
Conscripts do wierd gak mate. Conscripts do wierd gak.


I'm not saying that we don't focus on proficiency, I'm saying every now and then command decides it doesn't want to turn in any live ammo, or has been given specific instructions for complete expenditure. I remember one time they had tons of 7.62 belted that needed burned up and they pulled 6 M60s out of a vault to aid in the GAC.


It’s like 30% that turning live ammo into the ASP is a pain in the dick; it’s 80% that ammo is forecasted through the system whose name I no longer need to know. The S3 training NCO would fething MURDER you if you turned in 10 or 20% of your quarterly training ammo and then he/she could only get the amount you used last time and the unit fails to qualify the number of crews or individuals next quarter or year. As either the S3 or SAMT I would personally ring the life out of the officer or NCO that turned in live ammo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/19 01:16:09


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Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
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It's always been kinda wild to me that nnot having enough oomph in your charge can be just as dangerous as having too much.

Like, I know why, but it's still crazy.

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Made in za
Dakka Veteran



South Africa

I had a friend who was in the Commando (basically our version of the National Guard) who got me invited to a range day. Had to burn through an entire years budget of ammo in a day. I literally never knew you could get bored running a beltfed.

As for war ammunition, I recently went to a bullet factory here, the only one that produces .mil ammo in SA. They were celebrating a new order from the military. The first order since the end of the Border War in 1990. That's how much ammo was produced and stored then. In the early 2000s the Goverment dumped 3 million rounds of .303 that they couldn't sell to civilians any more, all WW2 supplies. They'd been a major source for sports shooting for decades and then all got dumped in the ocean due to a new law preventing civilians owning military bullets. Bullets our military hasn't used since the 60s.

KBK 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






UK

Anvildude wrote:
It's always been kinda wild to me that nnot having enough oomph in your charge can be just as dangerous as having too much.

Like, I know why, but it's still crazy.


An old guy in my club once had some dud rounds - He put one through, the 2nd blew his barrel to bits (thankfully all the bits went forward), yet he was completely oblivious and had to be prevented from chambering the 3rd round

   
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Monticello, IN

Kayback wrote:
I had a friend who was in the Commando (basically our version of the National Guard) who got me invited to a range day. Had to burn through an entire years budget of ammo in a day. I literally never knew you could get bored running a beltfed.



I had to explain to my last Platoon Sergeant why I rolled my eyes at being asked if I "wanted" to fire the Mark 19 grenade launcher. "I've cleared more rounds from that gun than most people in this unit have fired. Let THEM have a turn, I'm all out of HOOAH for this one..."

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For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






So when it comes to cool and snazzy looking modern weapons, are there many which are actually kinda effective?

Only one I can think of is the P90. Seems all the other sort of SciFi styled guns are wildly impractical?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/21 15:01:43


   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Even the P90 is of mixed effectiveness. It is good at what it does, but what it does isn't considered particularly useful right now. It is an SMG that was designed around a projectile intended to defeat body armor, the FN 5.7mm. So while it is moderately effective at penetrating soft body armor, its not really any more effective at defeating an armored target than any of the other amazing SMGs available in 9mm or .45. You're always going to be dumping multiple rounds into a target and your 9mm or .45 is still going to get through or hit parts not covered by body armor, and be more effective when they do get through because 5.7 projectiles are tiny and cause minimal damage(relatively speaking)

Until the very recent decision by the US to look into a new SMG their usage has been really dying. Modern assault rifles are able to do everything an SMG can plus more. SMGs made more sense when the standard service rifle was an actual rifle, bolt action or semi-auto or had a burst option, and you needed to sprinkle in a full auto weapon that wasn't an LMG.

SMGs have become a specialty tool for law enforcement or personal protection. Not really much use as a battlefield weapon. Especially if you are one of the armed forces that uses bullpup rifles, which eliminate the last advantage an SMG has over an assault rifle(being compact).

Honestly, I think the DP12 I just got might be the only really sci-fi looking thing that actually has a practical niche. Yes, it is gimmicky, but the gimmicks actually work and it offers a good mix of characteristics when you are looking at shotguns.

Semi-auto shotguns are finnicky things. Unless you are willing to shell out $2k+ for a Benelli, most semi-auto shotguns can only run certain ammo reliably. This is because shotgun shells can vary wildly in the gas pressure that the shells generate, and gas pressure is what is used to operate the gas system to make it a self-loading shotgun. The Benelli is great, but it is very very expensive and you still are using a tube magazine that at best holds 7+1 shells. That isn't terrible for shotguns by any means. Tube magazine shotguns are typically between 5 and 8 rounds in a tube.

Now if you want something that is nearly 100% reliable assuming no operator error, Pump shotguns are the way to go. Manually cycled action means you don't have to care about the power of the shells you are using. Beanbag rounds all the way up to slugs will work just fine. Usually they are again tube magazine fed, but there are detachable box magazine fed pumps too so you can potentially have more capacity. Though detachable box magazines are usually more common on a semi-auto shotgun. Pump shotguns with tube do have one disadvantage though. They are quite long assuming the shotgun has a buttstock. so they can be unwieldy.

The DP12 on the other hand has a good compromise for all of these points, with the only real problem being total weight.

The DP12 is only ~30" in length while still having 18" barrels. So you have a very compact gun while still having full size barrel length. It is a pump action so you have that as a reliable method of cycling, so any ammunition will function in it. You have a staggering magazine capacity, with 2 tube magazines holding 7 shells each(2-3/4" shells) for a total of 14+2. You have quick follow-up because you get 2 rounds to fire before the action needs to be cycled, so it is similar to a semi-auto in terms of quicker follow-up.

The weight is a downside. It is nearly 10 lbs, I believe over 10 when it is fully loaded, but this does help mitigate the substantial recoil of 12 gauge. and because of its compact design, pistol grip, and front vertical grip, it isn't unwieldy. I can hold mine out by the pistol grip with my hand full extended and it balances perfectly over it. It doesn't tip forward or backwards. This makes it very handy when whipping around to new targets.

And while it is definitely not a cheap shotgun($1450 MSRP) it isn't a $2-2.5k Benelli. But even with this, it isn't anything new technologically. It is really just two pump shotguns stuck together with a bullpup layout.

Ultimately, the reason most new firearms aren't making a splash is because firearm technology has really stagnated. Nothing new has really been invented since just after WW2. Nothing that has proved super useful anyway. At their core, the M4 rifles that the US uses are not much different than the M16s that got issued in Vietnam. You could take an M16 from just after Vietnam and slap all the modern doodads from a modern M4 on it and you would just have an M4 with an M16 receiver. At their core, the M4 is a 70 year old design. Just with minor tweaks to allow for attachments, different fire control groups for different selector settings(burst vs full auto or both).

Even the new NGSW trials to replace the M4 aren't any leap forward in technology. They're just bullpupping an M4 and swapping ammo to something a little bigger. But it is still pretty much the same 70+ year old technology. No, swapping the ammo casing from brass to polymer is not technological advancement. It is just a novel use of existing technology.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/21 16:57:36


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Liche Priest Hierophant






Clearly the answer here is the Pankor Jackhammer.

GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.

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M.A.V.- if you liked ChromeHounds, drop by the site and give it a go. Or check out my M.A.V. Oneshots videos on YouTube! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So when it comes to cool and snazzy looking modern weapons, are there many which are actually kinda effective?

Only one I can think of is the P90. Seems all the other sort of SciFi styled guns are wildly impractical?


The P90 is an 80s design. What's sci-fi? Not being snarky, just saying, it's a moving target. Is an AUG (1977) sci-fi? Or a Vector (2006)? I actually own an AUG and will defend it as my pick for the best bullpup, but 'sci-fi' is a very subjective thing.

I have to disagree with Grey Templar on a couple of points:

-5.7mm is much better at piercing Level II or III body armor than 9mm or .45. Against the contemporary body armor fielded by near-peer adversaries, pistol calibers simply won't inflict damage, even with repeated impacts- it's very, very rare to achieve multiple hits in a tight cluster on full auto in combat. I do agree with the general point that it's a solution to a question that hasn't been particularly relevant for a while now. Keep in mind the point of the P90 was so truck drivers and clerks could shoot back against Soviet paratroopers dropping behind Berlin. That's how old it is.

-SMGs are doctrinally obsolete compared to carbines, but carbines have their problems. Short-barreled 5.56 rifles really suck in terms of concussion, noise, flash, and reliability, and the significant loss in muzzle velocity limits range and greatly reduces lethality. Milspec 5.56 through a sub-10" barrel is actually more similar to 9mm than it is to 5.56 through a 20" barrel in terms of ballistics and wound cavity. Modern cartridges like .300BLK are, in part, an attempt to optimize for lower velocity and shorter barrel length, but they have tradeoffs of their own, like being ineffective beyond not much farther than SMG range. There's a general relationship where you have to design either towards short barrels, low velocity, and consequently short range, or long barrels, high velocity, and long range, and putting ammo intended for the latter in a compact platform causes all these nasty side effects.

-Semi-auto shotguns are a proven technology. Being tuned for a specific ammo type isn't a real problem; it's no different from semi-auto rifles and handguns being designed for a particular ammo type and either failing to cycle on weak rounds or being beaten to death by stronger rounds. Combat shotguns are designed for full-power buckshot and modern designs work quite reliably. Heck, even some older ones- the Browning Auto 5 and Remington Model 11 are over a century old and have exemplary records in combat.

-Pump shotguns are more reliable assuming no operator error... but that's a big caveat. Short-stroking pump guns under stress is a non-negligible problem, particularly for novice shooters (read: your average 18-year-old soldier). Given that semi shotguns offer softer recoil impulse and higher effective rate of fire, and theoretical reliability is the main thing a pump has going for it, that's a legitimate issue.

But the main reason pumps are still in common military use- and the elephant in the room for combat shotguns in general- is that shotguns aren't particularly militarily viable, so their most common application is as a specialist weapon. They're good for breaching doors, they're good for stopping vehicles (I enjoy checking out the racks of Benellis going through the guard checkpoints of US gov't facilities in the DC area), and they're good for less-lethal ammunition in law enforcement use, but by and large if you want to clear a building you use a carbine of some flavor.

Every so often the good idea fairy strikes some poor gun designer and they get the urge to design yet another full-auto or high-capacity combat shotgun. Jackhammer. Striker. AA-12. USAS-12. Some of them see minimal adoption in very specialized roles, but the most success these guns have had has been in Hollywood. It's the kind of thing that sounds super impressive, but in reality a double-tap with 5.56 above fragmentation velocity will kill someone just as dead as nine pellets of 00 buck, while weighing a fraction as much and being able to shoot out to about ten times the effective range.

The point about technology stagnating is spot-on though. The modern AR platform is the same gun it was in the 1960s, minor tweaks aside. What's changed have been the sighting systems used with the guns (an enormous force multiplier) and the support for additional accessories. A modern compact Mk18 is ballistically less effective than a Vietnam-era M16, but with a common accessory package can achieve much better hit probability at range, illuminate with a flashlight for close quarters, designate with a laser for artillery or air support, flood with IR to support night vision, and facilitate better recoil control at all ranges.

That said, the NGSW trials may actually represent a significant advance, because the calibers being trialed are not just something a little bigger. A little bigger is, say, 6.8 SPC- what the NGSW trials are asking for is a caliber with higher bullet mass and higher velocity than 6.8 SPC while retaining the same diameter, necessitating extremely high chamber pressures that a simple AR rework couldn't handle. The designs proposed so far are actually really interesting technically, like Textron's entry using a moving chamber on a cam track that seals to the barrel to fire. The fact that this is an actual iteration in small arms capability is the main reason I think this is actually going to result in procurement of a new weapons system, compared to every other attempt to replace the AR15 (all the way back to the 1970s) that basically ended in 'that's cool, but isn't sufficiently better than the AR to justify the cost'.

   
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The Conquerer






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Changing projectile specs still isn't anything revolutionary. Its just a longer bullet with 6.8mm caliber that is seated a little deeper in the cartridge than what otherwise might be done. Bu deepseated bullets aren't anything new. Heck, the APFDS shells that Abram's uses are almost 1/2 way down the shell. I've seen .458 socom bullets that are literally seated 80% down into the shell with only a tiny amount of powder(600+ grain subsonic thicc-boi projectiles).

I'm sure the military will definitely adopt this new weapon system, but I think it is down to the ammunition and not necessarily because the rifles are anything special. The military has realized how anemic 5.56 is and they have gone into this designing a new cartridge from the ground up and asked everybody to make a gun that fits that round. The rifles would be just as special/not special if they were chambered in something else, but it is the new cartridge that is the center focal point here.

That said, the military isn't going to be dropping the M4 any time soon. The proposed contract for the NGSW is just enough to equip the front line troops and is rather limited in quantity. Reserve troops are still going to be issued M4s for the foreseeable future.

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To clarify what catbarf asked.

Erm. Sleek design, the sort of 80’s/90’s SciFi laser which was designed to look cool rather than worry about function.

Example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FSloCRmYDI

   
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Ephrata, PA

So I bought a Kimber Custom 2 a few weeks ago. It is my first 1911, and I cleaned and oiled it the same way I do my other guns, and it sat until today (about 2 weeks). Went to the range today, and the slide kept jamming as the round cycled into the chamber. First the range officer thought it was just me limp wristing, but then I let him try to put a mag through, and it happened to him a bunch of times. We could both feel the slide getting caught on something as it dropped. I used Winchester white box, and both a factory Kimber mag, and a WC 47D mag.

After a whole 15 rounds (took almost 20 minutes, and at least 30 F2Fs), the range officer suggested that I take it home, clean the hell out of it, sloppy oil the stripped bits, and let it sit for a while, then dry it off and re-lube it. I have literally never been asked to leave a range for safety issues before. All of my Kimber groups are telling me to just re-clean and oil it, and try to get at least 200 rounds through it before I ship it off to kimber.

Any other ideas/suggestions?


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If you have any other .45's, you could try a few rounds in those. You could also do a plunk test with the barrel disassembled. That might tell you more if you have any .45 that's not from the Winchester White Box. Either of these could tell you if the ammo is the problem.

Maybe the recoil spring is really stiff?
   
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Second Story Man





Austria

 catbarf wrote:
Not being snarky, just saying, it's a moving target. Is an AUG (1977) sci-fi? Or a Vector (2006)? I actually own an AUG and will defend it as my pick for the best bullpup, but 'sci-fi' is a very subjective thing.

I just watched Dredd last night and the one thing to catch my eye was the sneaky placed AUG in the background for the SciFi weapon collection of the bad guys

the AUG is still a SciFi "themed" weapon because it looks different to anything else, even other bullpups, the classic design which was revolutionary by its time (like the integrated sight, or transparent magazine) are now considered outdated so the group of people who will recognize the design is limited
which is a reason why you see it in near-future SciFi movies

but if the question is to get something that works and still look futuristic, an AUG would be the first that comes to my mind

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Maine

I've fired brass cased pre1945 8mm Mauser and while the ammo looks flawless externally on the inside there can be considerable corrosion of the brass. The powder however is perfectly functional and the later 8mm spitzer type bullets are awesome. I have know folks who have reloaded the bullets and powder into new brass. I still shoot 1950's FN contract ammo, tho I am always sorting out the rounds with questionable primers to shoot first. So far they have all been flawless in functionality.

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 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
So I bought a Kimber Custom 2 a few weeks ago. It is my first 1911, and I cleaned and oiled it the same way I do my other guns, and it sat until today (about 2 weeks). Went to the range today, and the slide kept jamming as the round cycled into the chamber. First the range officer thought it was just me limp wristing, but then I let him try to put a mag through, and it happened to him a bunch of times. We could both feel the slide getting caught on something as it dropped. I used Winchester white box, and both a factory Kimber mag, and a WC 47D mag.

After a whole 15 rounds (took almost 20 minutes, and at least 30 F2Fs), the range officer suggested that I take it home, clean the hell out of it, sloppy oil the stripped bits, and let it sit for a while, then dry it off and re-lube it. I have literally never been asked to leave a range for safety issues before. All of my Kimber groups are telling me to just re-clean and oil it, and try to get at least 200 rounds through it before I ship it off to kimber.

Any other ideas/suggestions?



If it wasn’t under warranty you’d be polishing the mating surfaces. From your description check the hood and the end of the barrel for wearing from the slide

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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
So I bought a Kimber Custom 2 a few weeks ago. It is my first 1911, and I cleaned and oiled it the same way I do my other guns, and it sat until today (about 2 weeks). Went to the range today, and the slide kept jamming as the round cycled into the chamber. First the range officer thought it was just me limp wristing, but then I let him try to put a mag through, and it happened to him a bunch of times. We could both feel the slide getting caught on something as it dropped. I used Winchester white box, and both a factory Kimber mag, and a WC 47D mag.

After a whole 15 rounds (took almost 20 minutes, and at least 30 F2Fs), the range officer suggested that I take it home, clean the hell out of it, sloppy oil the stripped bits, and let it sit for a while, then dry it off and re-lube it. I have literally never been asked to leave a range for safety issues before. All of my Kimber groups are telling me to just re-clean and oil it, and try to get at least 200 rounds through it before I ship it off to kimber.

Any other ideas/suggestions?



Its a possibility the recoil spring hasn't been worn in yet. My 1911(Springfield) was very stiff and didn't feed quite right till the spring got a little loosened up just through some usage.

You could try just loading up some snap caps and cycling it a bunch to get it loosened up. Sometimes my 1911 gets ftf when the slide closes too fast for the round to make it into the chamber, which I think is down to the spring being overly strong. The solution just seems to be breaking it in a bit.

How hard is it to manipulate the slide? It should be firm but not uber stiff.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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Denison, Iowa

I don't know why there is such hate for semiauto shotguns. Are the ones you guys looking at devoid of adjustable gas systems? I bought a DDI-12 (Improved Saiga) and it has a 4-positon gas adjustment knob that will reliably cycle anything from the lightest birdshot to hard hitting slugs without beating the gun up.
   
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Humorless Arbite





Maine

I'm not sure if it's actually semi auto hate, but when the pump or break action type shotguns are the standard measurement for ammo compatibility semi autos start to look cranky. Especially the box fed variety where ammo deformities when stored in loaded magazines or overall shell case length from one manufacturer to another can be an issue. Plus the expensive nature of some of the more reliable semis compared to their pump action counterparts.....ugh...

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Heh. I bet you could make a square-barreled shotgun that would fire square shells. Probably even give it cubic shot.

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