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Ouze wrote: I'm just gonna say it: the P90 is a butt ugly gun, and the PS90 made it worse.
But it shoots fething lasers man! Having shot both, I actually prefer the feel of the PS90. The P90, without gloves, you can feel the concussion or something on the knuckles of the support hand. I think they changed the texture of the plastic too between the 1980's and the later PS90s. It is kind of ugly though.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Just saw this video again. Great illustration of the ridiculous durability of an AK.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Just saw this video again. Great illustration of the ridiculous durability of an AK.
It was a cool video but I feel like I came away with the opposite takeaway - you were seeing significant malfunctions after about 10 mags / 300 rounds. I mean, that is far in excess of what anyone should be doing in that timeframe, obviously... but ARs seem to be able to do much, much higher select fire round counts before they start having operating issues.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Grey Templar wrote: Just saw this video again. Great illustration of the ridiculous durability of an AK.
It was a cool video but I feel like I came away with the opposite takeaway - you were seeing significant malfunctions after about 10 mags / 300 rounds. I mean, that is far in excess of what anyone should be doing in that timeframe, obviously... but ARs seem to be able to do much, much higher select fire round counts before they start having operating issues.
Ummmm, there was not a single malfunction in that video. Not a single failure to feed, failure to fire, failure to eject, not even a cook-off. The only problem with the rifles operation was pulling the bolt back because it was getting dirty/heat expanding making it difficult to cycle it manually, with the added difficulty of it being too hot to touch. But every time it chambered and was then fired it worked flawlessly with normal operation. Every magazine was emptied without issue once it was loaded.
An AR15 under the same type of test(non-stop firing with no cool-off) would have clogged its gas system long before getting to that round count, assuming the heat didn't destroy it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/03 05:15:05
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Ummmm, there was not a single malfunction in that video. Not a single failure to feed, failure to fire, failure to eject, not even a cook-off. The only problem with the rifles operation was pulling the bolt back because it was getting dirty/heat expanding making it difficult to cycle it manually, with the added difficulty of it being too hot to touch. But every time it chambered and was then fired it worked flawlessly with normal operation. Every magazine was emptied without issue once it was loaded.
An AR15 under the same type of test(non-stop firing with no cool-off) would have clogged its gas system long before getting to that round count, assuming the heat didn't destroy it.
There's actually quite a few youtube video tests of people doing just that. Mechanically speaking, so long as nothing's screwed up with lockup, it'll fire consistently without fail, no matter the gun. Having to manually cycle the gun does constitute a failure though, and a pretty drastic one too, especially if you're in the midst of a combat environment. Realistically speaking of course, you don't end up shooting that much in a single engagement continuously as well. The AK actually isn't as dirt stupid reliable either, as its not that hard to gum up the works if you end up crawling through some mud.
Good video to illustrate that an AR burning steel case can get to 800ish rounds before an actual catastrophic failure during continuous fire, and that failure is in the barrel and not the gas tube, bolt or any other part.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 05:43:00
Grey Templar wrote: Just saw this video again. Great illustration of the ridiculous durability of an AK.
It was a cool video but I feel like I came away with the opposite takeaway - you were seeing significant malfunctions after about 10 mags / 300 rounds. I mean, that is far in excess of what anyone should be doing in that timeframe, obviously... but ARs seem to be able to do much, much higher select fire round counts before they start having operating issues.
Ummmm, there was not a single malfunction in that video. Not a single failure to feed, failure to fire, failure to eject, not even a cook-off. The only problem with the rifles operation was pulling the bolt back because it was getting dirty/heat expanding making it difficult to cycle it manually, with the added difficulty of it being too hot to touch. But every time it chambered and was then fired it worked flawlessly with normal operation. Every magazine was emptied without issue once it was loaded.
An AR15 under the same type of test(non-stop firing with no cool-off) would have clogged its gas system long before getting to that round count, assuming the heat didn't destroy it.
300 rounds in an AR platform at cyclic rates? You won’t see issues that that point. I see someone already posted an IV8888 video: he’s done several meltdowns on various priced uppers.
That dude slamming the charging handle back using the table isn’t a good sign. It means the bolt or oprod is binding.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Yeah, that AR was not mil spec, where it seems the AK was. First hiccup was on 3rd magazine when the bolt failed to hold open. The dude having to use some serious effort to cycle the bolt after sustained fire is part of the reason why weapons ment for sustained fire frequently fire from an open bolt, and probably contributes to the cult of the last round bolt hold open.
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Open bolt is mostly used because it is a much simpler design, you can save a lot of $ by eliminating the complex machining that a hammer or striker fired weapon has. There are actually a lot of drawbacks to such a system which make it not ideal for anything other than an SMG or a HMG. Mostly down to the recoil prohibiting accurate fire because there is recoil impulse before the round fires in addition to after. It is also more difficult to make a weapon with an open bolt select-fire.
There is a minor benefit in cooling with open bolts, but in practical situations it doesn't really matter.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Additional upside to open bolt, in weapons meant for sustained or extended fire, is the prevention of runaway guns.
No round being held in the chamber at action means no chance of a cookoff causing an unintended burst.
My $0.02, which since 1992 has rounded to nothing. Take with salt.
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Farseer Anath'lan wrote: Additional upside to open bolt, in weapons meant for sustained or extended fire, is the prevention of runaway guns.
No round being held in the chamber at action means no chance of a cookoff causing an unintended burst.
Well, yes, a round can't cook off in an open bolt. But you have the risk, without specific safety features in place, of a physical bump to the gun causing it to set off a burst. Yes, all modern open bolt guns have these features, but many of the original ones did not. Or had very basic ones that an inexperienced user could ignore.
Any open bolt gun without the safety engaged is a much greater risk then a closed bolt firearm in terms of negligent discharge. Closed bolt guns generally can't go off if you just drop them, open bolt guns totally can, assuming the safeties are not engaged. So there is an extra safety hazard.
You take an original Uzi prior to them adding safety features to prevent this and throw it down the stairs and you will probably have it mag dump by itself. Even simply falling over from being propped against a wall was known to set them off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 14:15:03
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Farseer Anath'lan wrote: Additional upside to open bolt, in weapons meant for sustained or extended fire, is the prevention of runaway guns.
No round being held in the chamber at action means no chance of a cookoff causing an unintended burst.
Well, yes, a round can't cook off in an open bolt. But you have the risk, without specific safety features in place, of a physical bump to the gun causing it to set off a burst. Yes, all modern open bolt guns have these features, but many of the original ones did not. Or had very basic ones that an inexperienced user could ignore.
Any open bolt gun without the safety engaged is a much greater risk then a closed bolt firearm in terms of negligent discharge. Closed bolt guns generally can't go off if you just drop them, open bolt guns totally can, assuming the safeties are not engaged. So there is an extra safety hazard.
You take an original Uzi prior to them adding safety features to prevent this and throw it down the stairs and you will probably have it mag dump by itself. Even simply falling over from being propped against a wall was known to set them off.
Not disagreeing, and yes, early gun, the odds of a physical bump causing a runaway was much greater then a cook off. Nowadays, though, with those safety features, the probability's reversed. Even knocking them around pretty damn hard isn't likely to set them off - combat's not exactly kid gloved, they get thrown around. Cook offs, though? Everyone's had a few. Weapon fails to cycle, pop the lid, bang. And a runaway gun is a huge safety issue - no one wants your LSW suddenly dumping a dozen rounds before the gunner can snap the belt. Even with muzzle awareness, that's an additional hazard that people go to great lengths to avoid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 15:25:05
My $0.02, which since 1992 has rounded to nothing. Take with salt.
Elysian Drop Troops, Dark Angels, 30K
Mercenaries, Retribution
Ten Thunders, Neverborn
Been watching The Walking Dead Season 10. And am on the main story finale.
See when The Horde is approaching? I’m wondering how effective two, three maybe four of the mini guns out of Predator might’ve been?
I ask because my only knowledge of such weapons is from pop culture. And my question is tied to another pop culture source.
In theory? Whilst they may not outright kill many zombies (unless somehow fixed to average height for the business end), they’d still make a pretty decent mess, and turn most Whisperers lurking among The Horde into either soup, mist or shrieking Zombie chow.
I’m guessing against such a slow moving and densely packed target environment, they’d be great. But I’m also wondering what their penetration power is. Would each round only shred the first, second and third zombie in its path?
Some extrapolation may be required on account of rotten meat. But I’m interested to hear about it nonetheless.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Been watching The Walking Dead Season 10. And am on the main story finale.
See when The Horde is approaching? I’m wondering how effective two, three maybe four of the mini guns out of Predator might’ve been?
I ask because my only knowledge of such weapons is from pop culture. And my question is tied to another pop culture source.
In theory? Whilst they may not outright kill many zombies (unless somehow fixed to average height for the business end), they’d still make a pretty decent mess, and turn most Whisperers lurking among The Horde into either soup, mist or shrieking Zombie chow.
I’m guessing against such a slow moving and densely packed target environment, they’d be great. But I’m also wondering what their penetration power is. Would each round only shred the first, second and third zombie in its path?
Some extrapolation may be required on account of rotten meat. But I’m interested to hear about it nonetheless.
As set up in Predator, not great. They actually had that EXACT weapon on a show called Hollywood Weapons. Even firing blanks creates so much recoil that a well-built man with military training was not able to hold himself up, let alone keep it on target. Real ammo would be MUCH worse. Even if you put it on a swivel mount, the average round is just a .308/7.62x51mm full metal jacket. Yeah, it might penetrate 3 zombies deep, and possibly chop them off horizontally at the sweep line. Going to use A LOT of ammo though.
Realistically, I'd go with Molotovs and pipe bombs with lots of shrapnel. Not going to do much to the horde, but still a lot more likely to make a Whisperer go running when they aren't in the front ranks.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Been watching The Walking Dead Season 10. And am on the main story finale.
See when The Horde is approaching? I’m wondering how effective two, three maybe four of the mini guns out of Predator might’ve been?
I ask because my only knowledge of such weapons is from pop culture. And my question is tied to another pop culture source.
In theory? Whilst they may not outright kill many zombies (unless somehow fixed to average height for the business end), they’d still make a pretty decent mess, and turn most Whisperers lurking among The Horde into either soup, mist or shrieking Zombie chow.
I’m guessing against such a slow moving and densely packed target environment, they’d be great. But I’m also wondering what their penetration power is. Would each round only shred the first, second and third zombie in its path?
Some extrapolation may be required on account of rotten meat. But I’m interested to hear about it nonetheless.
I'd think the main problem with such weapons in a post-apocalyptic scenario would be how wasteful they are in ammo. That thing fires like thousands of rounds per minute and maintaining a supply to keep up with that would be difficult I imagine. Not to mention carrying it all around.
If you somehow did have the resources to set up several of those weapons, I'd imagine they'd be really effective though. The zombies would basically just be turned into a pulp. But again, the problem would probably that you'd run out of ammo before you'd run out of zombies.
As set up in Predator, not great. They actually had that EXACT weapon on a show called Hollywood Weapons. Even firing blanks creates so much recoil that a well-built man with military training was not able to hold himself up, let alone keep it on target. Real ammo would be MUCH worse. Even if you put it on a swivel mount, the average round is just a .308/7.62x51mm full metal jacket. Yeah, it might penetrate 3 zombies deep, and possibly chop them off horizontally at the sweep line. Going to use A LOT of ammo though.
Realistically, I'd go with Molotovs and pipe bombs with lots of shrapnel. Not going to do much to the horde, but still a lot more likely to make a Whisperer go running when they aren't in the front ranks.
Yeah, the M134 would be good, just, not as they did it in Predator. Now, if they were to mount it in an old DC 3, however....
That said,if you want to take Gatling guns to zombies, might I suggest...
Our buddy, the GAU-8. If there were ever a weapon system you felt the urge to buy a beer afterwards, this is it. No matter what flavor your zombies come in, fast, slow, exploding, mutating, hyper muscular or armored (particularly armored) this bad boy will turn them to virulent goo. To make extra sure, the same A-10 platform also supports delivery systems for napalm and white phosphorus. Because you can never be too sure when dealing with the undead.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Mini-guns have horrendous recoil due to being chambered in full rifle calibers. They absolutely cannot be carried and used by a person both because of recoil and how much ammo you need to have to operate them. They are definitely a vehicle only weapon system. They gotta be bolted down to something substantial that can also carry the 5000+ rounds you'd need to fire it a useful amount.
Now, there is something new that is man-portable. The XM556 Microgun.
Its basically a mini-gun scaled down to 5.56, same round used by M4s and AR15s. The makes the recoil manageable, though still definitely substantial, and you still eat ammo like crazy.
In theory, you could have a backpack ammo feed system with a couple thousand rounds in it. But you would have at best a few seconds of fire and you'd be dumping multiple rounds per target. Not exactly the best kill per bullet ratio you'd want in a zombie appocalypse. I'd rather have an MG3, adjustable rof is nice.
In a maximum density zombie crowd, you would definitely be penetrating multiple bodies. Potentially up to 5-6 or even more. The issue is that each zombie would be getting hit by multiple bullets, so you are kinda wasting a lot of your shots. A bunch of dudes with select fire rifles, most being used in semi-auto, would be more efficient. You can space your shots out and make them count, and maybe use full auto occasionally to clear them out if you're getting too close.
Something like this would be more useful vs zombies.
A controllable rate of fire, you can vary how fast or slow you fire so you can be selective where you dump your shots.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/07 01:02:06
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
On the penetration issue, and I’m pretty sure we’re diving into “who knows”…
But given Zombies in the Walking Dead can have their skulls smooshed with just a single stomp, or a few swings of a flimsy door, we can reasonably assume their overall body integrity is compromised.
So I’m wondering if a single gut shot would cause enough damage to barely trouble the next round?
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Grey Templar wrote: Just saw this video again. Great illustration of the ridiculous durability of an AK.
It was a cool video but I feel like I came away with the opposite takeaway - you were seeing significant malfunctions after about 10 mags / 300 rounds. I mean, that is far in excess of what anyone should be doing in that timeframe, obviously... but ARs seem to be able to do much, much higher select fire round counts before they start having operating issues.
Ummmm, there was not a single malfunction in that video. Not a single failure to feed, failure to fire, failure to eject, not even a cook-off.
That's because you are artificially redefining "malfunction" to only include the point a round has been chambered. By the 10th mag, it was no longer possible to normally charge the rifle, and to me, that is a malfunction - if you have to mortar it to load it, that is not normal operation in my book, and I was surprised it happened to early on. I would have expected a much higher round count before that became a problem.
Grey Templar wrote: You take an original Uzi prior to them adding safety features to prevent this and throw it down the stairs and you will probably have it mag dump by itself. Even simply falling over from being propped against a wall was known to set them off.
Honestly? That just makes me want the dangerous bad boy of the firearms world that much more.
"You're dangerous"
"yeah, I am dangerous"
*bite*
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/07 18:26:55
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On the penetration issue, and I’m pretty sure we’re diving into “who knows”…
But given Zombies in the Walking Dead can have their skulls smooshed with just a single stomp, or a few swings of a flimsy door, we can reasonably assume their overall body integrity is compromised.
So I’m wondering if a single gut shot would cause enough damage to barely trouble the next round?
As evidenced by episode 1 of the walking dead, the zombies can definitely survive everything short of their heads being destroyed, but a zombie with no functioning legs or arms is pretty much a non-issue. Can't bite you if it can't catch you.
So in theory as long as their ability to walk/crawl is eliminated/severely hampered you can safely wait for the zombie to rot away.
This would really be what ends a zombie appocalypse before humanity got wiped out. The zombies would start rotting away to immobilization before they got everybody. So really you'd have at most a month or so to worry about it. After that any remaining zombies would just be angrily twitching on the ground trying to bite your ankles as they would lack any leg or arm muscles.
This is of course assuming the zombies rely on actual biological processes to move their bodies. IE: They still have to send nerve impulses to their muscles to move. If their limbs are moved by magic, nothing short of total dismemberment will suffice.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Battlebots. Get yourself a full-body spinner, and just start turning zombies into meat slurry.
Also, on that microgun- First off, neat. But the attitudes of some of the people in that video are... concerning. First off, it's not 'revolutionary', Mr. person. It's fun, or cool, or possibly concerning. It's a miniaturized miniaturized rotary cannon.
Second... Why are these available to the police? In what situation could you POSSIBLY imagine police officers needing this!? Military I could see- with a fire/speed control, that could work as a useful man-portable area denial platform. But Law Enforcement?
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Second... Why are these available to the police? In what situation could you POSSIBLY imagine police officers needing this!? Military I could see- with a fire/speed control, that could work as a useful man-portable area denial platform. But Law Enforcement?
This situation:
Remember, the police don't always have the superior firepower or equipment. This vehicle was seized by Mexican police.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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Well, the microgun might not do much if that vehicle is 5.56 resistant.
Anvildude wrote: Battlebots. Get yourself a full-body spinner, and just start turning zombies into meat slurry.
Also, on that microgun- First off, neat. But the attitudes of some of the people in that video are... concerning. First off, it's not 'revolutionary', Mr. person. It's fun, or cool, or possibly concerning. It's a miniaturized miniaturized rotary cannon.
Second... Why are these available to the police? In what situation could you POSSIBLY imagine police officers needing this!? Military I could see- with a fire/speed control, that could work as a useful man-portable area denial platform. But Law Enforcement?
Well, they should be available to everybody IMO. No special treatment for anybody, level playing field. I need something for my Terminator Sergeant Cosplay!
That said, I doubt any US police department would actually buy that microgun. That thing is going to be way outside the budget of most departments, and even those that could afford it from their size would still find it tough to justify. Most of the high end toys that US police get are surplus that the military just gives away instead of scrapping, they rarely actually outright buy the expensive stuff.
The manufacturer of that weapon is probably just desperately trying to drum up any interest in purchase, so they're not going to limit their sales market artificially, but outside of actual military they are probably out of luck.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/08 15:00:52
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Elysian Drop Troops, 
Dark Angels, 30K
