Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Do you only shoot alone? I know people with private ranges and they still enjoy shooting with others, which often has a "show 'n' tell' atmosphere.
Not much for social shooting these days and I don't do a lot of it anyway. There is a range down over yonder of here. Pretty much everyone around me is shooting or hunting on their land so not sure who goes to the range. I think it's some sort of club, there's military in this area too so that might have something to do with it. I'll have to look into it now.
Three five shot thirty eight short barrel revolvers. They are pocket pistols, and that's where I keep them (well, one, anyway, the other two are in a gun box next to the bed). They are here to defend myself and my wife. Along with a big Rottweiler and a big Labrador, they are all the home defense we need.
I also take one with me when my wife and I go out, and keep it concealed (perfectly legal in my area).
I was a soldier, and even in my old man years, am still a very good shot. However, I see firearms as tools for defense, and that is all. I keep them clean and oiled and loaded. I have never yet had a reason to draw one, as there has never yet been a situation that I couldn't talk myself out of.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/06 10:46:59
First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.
For the first time since I started EDC'ing in 1998 I had a personal reason to draw my pistol two weeks ago.
As I stopped at a red light in a fairly bad part of town I couldn't avoid driving through (I work there) I was the victim of a smash and grab. Normally I can see them coming and have avoided it more than once, but this time I was distracted by the light being out. I wasn't stopping for a light change as everyone was going 1-1 through the light, like it was a stop street, so I was still rolling forwards to pull up to the light.
My wife in the passenger seat screamed as the window exploded in on her and someone leant into the car.
I'd already started reaching for it as I heard her scream and had a grip on it by the time he lent in the car and was pulling it out as my wife yelled "NO!" and punched him in the throat so hard he fell out the car without having got her bag. As he wasn't actually attacking her, was no longer in the car and a quick scan of my 6 showed it wasn't a hijacking I let go of the pistol and just peeled out of there, around the truck that was stopped at the light ahead of me.
For the first time since I started EDC'ing in 1998 I had a personal reason to draw my pistol two weeks ago.
As I stopped at a red light in a fairly bad part of town I couldn't avoid driving through (I work there) I was the victim of a smash and grab. Normally I can see them coming and have avoided it more than once, but this time I was distracted by the light being out. I wasn't stopping for a light change as everyone was going 1-1 through the light, like it was a stop street, so I was still rolling forwards to pull up to the light.
My wife in the passenger seat screamed as the window exploded in on her and someone leant into the car.
I'd already started reaching for it as I heard her scream and had a grip on it by the time he lent in the car and was pulling it out as my wife yelled "NO!" and punched him in the throat so hard he fell out the car without having got her bag. As he wasn't actually attacking her, was no longer in the car and a quick scan of my 6 showed it wasn't a hijacking I let go of the pistol and just peeled out of there, around the truck that was stopped at the light ahead of me.
Holy poop on a stick!
That’s horrifying. Glad you’re both at least physically OK though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/08 21:14:28
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
A while back my brother and I both got 1911's. We went shooting them for the first time at the local gun store. A friend of his was cleaning out his reloads, and had given my brother a freezer baggy of about 120 rounds.
First shot was fine, then misfeed, misfeed, failure to eject, misfeed that rammed the bullet all the way into the casing. After a few rounds I noticed my forearms covered in black soot, or possibly unspent powder. I eventually just bought a box of 20 rounds just to see if it was the reloads. Yeah, it was. Gun functions 100% with factory ammo. We threw the reloads in the trash.
For the first time since I started EDC'ing in 1998 I had a personal reason to draw my pistol two weeks ago.
When driving through Detroit one has to check an intersection before deciding whether to obey the signage.
Carjacking was invented there, and people typically shift their carry posture from "accessible" to "in the hand" while driving through the neighborhoods.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
cuda1179 wrote: A while back my brother and I both got 1911's. We went shooting them for the first time at the local gun store. A friend of his was cleaning out his reloads, and had given my brother a freezer baggy of about 120 rounds.
First shot was fine, then misfeed, misfeed, failure to eject, misfeed that rammed the bullet all the way into the casing. After a few rounds I noticed my forearms covered in black soot, or possibly unspent powder. I eventually just bought a box of 20 rounds just to see if it was the reloads. Yeah, it was. Gun functions 100% with factory ammo. We threw the reloads in the trash.
My guess is the bullets were not seated to a proper overall length. They were probably too long and were jamming because of that, plus having too much powder.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Slinky wrote: Best policy is to not use other people's handloads, imo.
The problem with using a friend's handloads is that you are now doubling your risk. All handloads are somewhat suspect, so if they don't work, you might damage a weapon and lose an otherwise happy friendship.
I will use remanufactured ammo so long as the concern is big enough to pay out on a lawsuit.
Looks like an extended mag, so presumably a fully automatic pistol. And given A-Team’s budget, I don’t think it would be something custom or with random cool bits tacked on.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Looks like an extended mag, so presumably a fully automatic pistol. And given A-Team’s budget, I don’t think it would be something custom or with random cool bits tacked on.
I've spent entirely too much time on the Internet Movie Firearms Database to engage in speculation.
For example, many M-16s used during the 80s were replicas, and to confuse matters even more, they would move the replicas around with the firing versions as needed. Thus, a given character didn't consistently use the same prop.
Likewise, there's the issue of "rubber ducks" (hard rubber or polymer replicas) being swapped out between scenes.
Indeed, if you dig into the topic, the striking feature is the absolute indifference of most production crews in maintaining firearms consistency.
Conversely, there's also the situation where cosmetic changes are applied to conceal the fact that the production company could only afford a small number of firearms. I think "El Mariachi" had one functioning prop gun, the rest were squirt guns spray-painted matte black.
Over the last 20 years, much more attention has gone into firearms prop selection. The John Wick films are a great example of this.
Over the last 20 years, much more attention has gone into firearms prop selection. The John Wick films are a great example of this.
Interesting topic.
The aftermath of the Miami Dade shootout in 1986 provoked a sea change in firearms evaluation and usage by US law enforcement. Quite a lot has been written about this, but in brief, the gunfight was between 8 FBI and 2 bank robbers. One of the robbers was taken out early in the fight, while the other (Michael Lee Platt) was able to do an enormous amount of damage (killed 2 and wounded 5), primarily with a Mini-14.
Platt was hit pretty early in the fight by a 9mm round that punctured his lung but stopped short of his heart. This probably more than anything is the reason for the FBI penetration standards that all ammunition is now measured by, and why 9mm was considered underpowered causing LE to switch to .40 S&W and 10mm. Modern 9mm ammo is much better and can now pass these tests, so .40 has fallen to the wayside. 10mm is powerful enough to still have a niche purpose.
FBI Agent Ed Mireles was wounded in one arm and had to shoot and reload his Remington 870 pump shotgun 1 handed. His heroic actions were perhaps an inspiration for the memorable scene in Terminator 2.
The A-Team's main gun was that same Mini-14. While the show was cartoonish in that 80's network television way, its hard to dispute that this was an effective gun for that era given the impact it had on firearm development following the Miami Dade shootout.
Switching to the modern era, yes the John Wick films tend to feature really good guns that would be your top picks for CQB gunfights. The "Pit Viper" custom 1911 is close to or the best handgun you could possibly have.
Still, these are just movies. I would argue that while the John Wick films have better guns, they have more in common with the cowboy shows of the 50's and 60's with people like "Lash Larue" and "The Rifleman" mastering their particular guns for the purpose of showmanship rather than shows aiming for more realism.
The sequence in JW3 where he has to switch out his AR for a semi auto shotgun with AP shells is rather an overreach. A standard 2 3/4" shotgun shell is going to top out at perhaps 1500 fps and not be a viable armor piercing option compared to a rifle no matter how good the slug is.
Its just an excuse for there to be a cool shotgun sequence using the "3 gun" shell caddys and quad load techniques.He even has and uses a match saver! And the end result is more like a super hero film then something approaching realism. Along the same lines I thought it was clever that in the latest Terminator movie they fired their guns from the hip while in the 80's then actually aimed them in the modern timeline.
On a related/personal note, I bought the tactical version of this (with less bling, barrel and 2 fewer shells) as my home defense gun, primarily because of this commercial:
The gun seems very effective at the range, but I can't rapid fire anywhere near as steady as Jerry, or reliably quad load like the QL queen Lena here. Even the double load is hard enough I wouldn't try it in a real HD situation. It is quite difficult and you'd really have to practice to the extent of a pro shooter to realistically be able to do those things. Plus I doubt they are using the full power buckshot/slugs you'd want if you had to shoot at actual people.
Something like the Terminal List at least seems like it is more realistic. The MC has an HK 416 with thermal optic. "Riggins" uses a Beretta semi auto shotgun and reloads normally, slowing the operation down. He would have been better off with an AR. Having said that, idk if the "explosively forged projectile" is realistic or not. Obviously I don't make IEDs. Still really cool either way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/15 20:51:29
Looks like an extended mag, so presumably a fully automatic pistol. And given A-Team’s budget, I don’t think it would be something custom or with random cool bits tacked on.
(I had to look it up, I did not know off the top of my head)
Yep! I think that’s the one! Thought on the next poster’s comment about a lack of consistency? I swear Hannibal is later seen with a Beretta - that machine pistols also seen in Total Recall, with the cowling with all holes up the side?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Slowroll wrote: Platt was hit pretty early in the fight by a 9mm round that punctured his lung but stopped short of his heart. This probably more than anything is the reason for the FBI penetration standards that all ammunition is now measured by, and why 9mm was considered underpowered causing LE to switch to .40 S&W and 10mm. Modern 9mm ammo is much better and can now pass these tests, so .40 has fallen to the wayside. 10mm is powerful enough to still have a niche purpose.
I think it's been pretty conclusively shown that the FBI used poor tactics and had inadequate training and leadership. Several agents had .357 Magnum revolvers which had ample stopping power, but they missed.
Typical response: blame the cartridge, not the leadership.
The sequence in JW3 where he has to switch out his AR for a semi auto shotgun with AP shells is rather an overreach. A standard 2 3/4" shotgun shell is going to top out at perhaps 1500 fps and not be a viable armor piercing option compared to a rifle no matter how good the slug is.
The notion of dropping one weapon in favor of drawing a new one was obsolete as soon as magazine-fed autoloaders were developed. Contra console gaming, it is almost always faster to slap a new magazine in than it is to switch weapons and extra mags are much less bulky that a second (or third!) firearm.
Slowroll wrote: Platt was hit pretty early in the fight by a 9mm round that punctured his lung but stopped short of his heart. This probably more than anything is the reason for the FBI penetration standards that all ammunition is now measured by, and why 9mm was considered underpowered causing LE to switch to .40 S&W and 10mm. Modern 9mm ammo is much better and can now pass these tests, so .40 has fallen to the wayside. 10mm is powerful enough to still have a niche purpose.
I think it's been pretty conclusively shown that the FBI used poor tactics and had inadequate training and leadership. Several agents had .357 Magnum revolvers which had ample stopping power, but they missed.
Typical response: blame the cartridge, not the leadership.
To be fair, everything was bad. They initiated the stop before more backup arrived, backup which was more heavily armed, and they were carrying inadaquate firepower. Yes, a .357 would have done fine at stopping power, but you really can't afford to take a carefully aimed shot when under fire and revolvers can't make it up with volume. Revolvers are totally obsolete and have been since the early 1900s, it was penny pinching and curmudgeonly attitudes that kept Police from upgrading till this happened.
Plus there was probably some bravado and naivety making the officers think the guys might just pull over and give up.
And really they didn't just blame the tools. They blamed everything. It led to better training and equipment, not just equipment.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
And really they didn't just blame the tools. They blamed everything. It led to better training and equipment, not just equipment.
Yeah I agree. Their performance here and the loss of two agents did merit an overhaul in terms of their tactics, training, and gear. Had all the agents been carrying .40 Glocks (not invented yet), likely only Platt would have died. And you certainly can't count on having someone like Mireles on your team every time.
IMO they did the responsible thing and we all benefit from it. There is certainly an argument to be made that law enforcement later pushed this line of thinking too far and I'd agree with that, but that discussion likely belongs elsewhere.
The notion of dropping one weapon in favor of drawing a new one was obsolete as soon as magazine-fed autoloaders were developed. Contra console gaming, it is almost always faster to slap a new magazine in than it is to switch weapons and extra mags are much less bulky that a second (or third!) firearm.
But it is fun to watch.
The "New York Reload" (draw another gun rather than reload) was popularized by Jim Cirillo, an NYPD cop in the 70's who mainly used revolvers in part because he favored wad cutter bullets that won't feed in semi auto pistols. When he carried a semi auto he would have a hand loaded wad cutter in the chamber with standard ball ammo in the mag. This guy survived dozens of gunfights and put a quite a lot of people in the ground.
His book is really good, and while outdated well worth a look. He made the best choices for what was available at the time, backed up by his own testing and personal experience. In modern times, the tools to measure what will be faster for you in particular are readily available and you can test this yourself. I can tell you they still teach transition to pistol in carbine class, and we've probably all seen Officer Rex Englebert clear the school with an AR and no spare magazines. He didn't need them but may have had it gone down differently. I think that training has some real world value.
In the film John Wick does do a lot of those transitions but in this case is fighting against a platoon of guys with soft body armor that is so good they are only mildly inconvenienced by full auto ARs. He leaves the fight to go get a better gun and I'm thinking he's going to grab a Tavor 7 or P-90 with real AP ammo but no, the shotgun is somehow the armor penetration king, leading to a shotgun sequence that is an orgy of 3-gun reloading drills and "gun kata" that makes for an exciting, if totally unrealistic action sequence.
As you said, fun to watch if unrealistic. An interesting choice given that they went through the trouble to give Keanu, Halle Berry etc quite a lot of real firearms training, give them the best guns, etc.
In the film John Wick does do a lot of those transitions but in this case is fighting against a platoon of guys with soft body armor that is so good they are only mildly inconvenienced by full auto ARs. He leaves the fight to go get a better gun and I'm thinking he's going to grab a Tavor 7 or P-90 with real AP ammo but no, the shotgun is somehow the armor penetration king, leading to a shotgun sequence that is an orgy of 3-gun reloading drills and "gun kata" that makes for an exciting, if totally unrealistic action sequence.
I legit though they would go grab some M1 Garands with black tip .30-06. I see your modern soft body armour and choose to ignore it.
But Taran probably wouldn't have cool guy moves for that.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
In fairness, the John Wick movies are pretty realistic on the actual gunplay, weapon handling, etc... I believe they even actually bother to do accurate reloading(IE: no infinite mags till it's convenient for the plot to require a reload) most of the time.
Yes, picking the shotgun was not realistically a good choice. It was done for the cool factor.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
It's funny that Keanu is this ultra peaceful practicing buddist hippy, that decries the violence in Hollywood. Dude, you have the highest kill count in 20 years, Arnold doesn't even touch you in on screen kills. Not only that, you basically made Violence = sexy in the Matrix films.
Slowroll wrote: Switching to the modern era, yes the John Wick films tend to feature really good guns that would be your top picks for CQB gunfights. The "Pit Viper" custom 1911 is close to or the best handgun you could possibly have.
On the flipside, that MPX carbine in JW3 is a firearm that has no purpose beyond min-maxing comp requirements while meeting NFA regulations, and the movie practically lampshades itself by then showing how well a 9mm PCC deals with body armor.
I unironically enjoy how the John Wick films are set in an alternate reality where three-gun competition raceguns and techniques are used for combat, even though your comparison to cowboy shows (where the gunplay has more in common with exhibition shoots than actual gunfights) is spot-on. It's pure style over realism, but there's internal consistency and attention to detail that makes it fun to watch.
Slowroll wrote: Switching to the modern era, yes the John Wick films tend to feature really good guns that would be your top picks for CQB gunfights. The "Pit Viper" custom 1911 is close to or the best handgun you could possibly have.
On the flipside, that MPX carbine in JW3 is a firearm that has no purpose beyond min-maxing comp requirements while meeting NFA regulations, and the movie practically lampshades itself by then showing how well a 9mm PCC deals with body armor.
I know it's cos, as you say, 3 gun uses it but I never got why the MPX 9 was used. The 9mm doesn't become magic out a carbine. He uses the 416/415 to good effect in JW1.
You can get really fast using a 5.56 too. Not as fast as a low recoil 9mm, sure, but fast enough that hits that actually penetrate armour vs lightning fast splits that don't do damage...
catbarf wrote: I unironically enjoy how the John Wick films are set in an alternate reality where three-gun competition raceguns and techniques are used for combat, even though your comparison to cowboy shows (where the gunplay has more in common with exhibition shoots than actual gunfights) is spot-on. It's pure style over realism, but there's internal consistency and attention to detail that makes it fun to watch.
It's like classic martial arts films. Obviously the fight is choreographed, but the moves and timing involved are a pleasure to watch.
On the flipside, that MPX carbine in JW3 is a firearm that has no purpose beyond min-maxing comp requirements while meeting NFA regulations, and the movie practically lampshades itself by then showing how well a 9mm PCC deals with body armor.
I know it's cos, as you say, 3 gun uses it but I never got why the MPX 9 was used. The 9mm doesn't become magic out a carbine. He uses the 416/415 to good effect in JW1.
You can get really fast using a 5.56 too. Not as fast as a low recoil 9mm, sure, but fast enough that hits that actually penetrate armour vs lightning fast splits that don't do damage...
Huh, I didn't notice that was an MPX. Even better.
I'm not too keen on 9mm carbines in general either, for the same reasons. People seem to like them, though. They sell a lot of those cheap Kel-Tec Sub 2000's and they seem to show up in the news a lot. I really don't get it.
I like the 9mm carbine I have, fun to shoot, low recoil makes it a great teaching gun. Also been used as a varmint gun where I don't want the longer range and higher penetration of the 5.56.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Slowroll wrote: I'm not too keen on 9mm carbines in general either, for the same reasons. People seem to like them, though. They sell a lot of those cheap Kel-Tec Sub 2000's and they seem to show up in the news a lot. I really don't get it.
The improvement in ballistic performance vs a handgun is significant at the ranges you are likely to use them. Some of them can use pistol magazines, so if you can match them to be fully interchangeable.
In some states, rifle cartridges are prohibited in certain jurisdictions during hunting season, so PCCs have that niche as well.
Before the boating accident I had one (Beretta CX4 Storm) and it was superb. Easy to use and clean, flawlessly accurate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/19 01:03:57
Made to do a murder mystery at departmental away day. Written by boss. The victim died by gunshot wound to the heart. Autopsy confirms 44mm round used…
