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We finally have answer to the preheresy vs standard codex battles.

Q: Are the armies and units in the Horus Heresy books by Forge World meant to be used in
games against regular Codex armies, such as say Grey Knights or Orks?

A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules, they have been fine-tuned and
focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the
Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case.

Designer’s Note: This means that while you are, of course, free to have fun and play games against
your friends using any forces you like, and Horus Heresy forces will be broadly ‘a fair fight with
Codex forces of the same scale, certain rules anomalies and inconsistencies may be thrown up that
you have to deal with, although these should not seriously affect the game in most cases. (For
example, certain units, such as those with the Stubborn special rule are at a premium costing in
Horus Heresy armies over their regular Codex counterparts, owing to the results of play testing
within their own sphere.) (This is a concept you come across with any new codex!)
In terms of using Lords of War and the Primarchs, however, these are definitely not intended to be
used in standard Warhammer 40,000 games, but only in games where both sides use the Age of
Darkness Force Organisation chart, and the specific provisions within, and in games of 2,000 points
or greater.

Designer’s Note: So if, for example, you wanted to play a battle representing a narrative where the
Sons of Horus Legion fought Orks or Eldar during the Great Crusade, you could quite easily use
those xenos forces’ Warhammer 40,000 Codexes (possibly house-ruled to accommodate larger
squads) to proxy for their Heresy-era counterparts. In this case, however, both sides should be using
the Age of Darkness Force Organisation chart, with the army’s own Apocalypse level units and flyers
available as Lords of War entries following the guidelines found on page 184 of Betrayal.

Fine. Now take it to a tournament...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Fine. Now take it to a tournament...

bah you can't normally take IA to tournaments anyway or if you can its 1 selection.

Why would I want to take my shiny preheresy Imperial fists to be eaten by Flamers and Screamers anyway?

Warhammer 40k doesn't begin and end with tournaments, they are IMO a small part of the hobby and I can take them or leave them. I know a lot of people on Dakka are here for the competitive aspect, but I don't play 40k for competition, I play for fun.

Well as you can note.. horus is clearly cheaper than the other codexies.. thus they recomend it only for house ruling.. GL for Tournament yeh

valace2 wrote:
We finally have answer to the preheresy vs standard codex battles.

A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules,they have been fine-tuned and
focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the
Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case.

I like how he ignored this part of it, I really don't care one way or the other I just find it funny he ignored this part.

phatonic wrote:
Well as you can note.. horus is clearly cheaper than the other codexies.. thus they recomend it only for house ruling.. GL for Tournament yeh

How exactly are they cheaper? A tactical squad is 150pts base, with no upgrades. They can not take heavy or special weapons as well as ATSKNF, which puts them at a disadvantage. They can take 10 extra troopers which begins to lower their overall points, but again no special or heavy weapons, and let me tell you after several games of preheresy vs normal codex armies makes a big difference when you have a big MC bearing down on your tactical squads. Haven't played anything higher than a 1250 game with them yet, so it might start to balance as you add things like cataphracti and Spartan assault vehicles. Preheresy units are very specialized where standard codex units are better in all situations.

valace2 wrote:

phatonic wrote:
Well as you can note.. horus is clearly cheaper than the other codexies.. thus they recomend it only for house ruling.. GL for Tournament yeh

How exactly are they cheaper? A tactical squad is 150pts base, with no upgrades. They can not take heavy or special weapons as well as ATSKNF, which puts them at a disadvantage. They can take 10 extra troopers which begins to lower their overall points, but again no special or heavy weapons, and let me tell you after several games of preheresy vs normal codex armies makes a big difference when you have a big MC bearing down on your tactical squads. Haven't played anything higher than a 1250 game with them yet, so it might start to balance as you add things like cataphracti and Spartan assault vehicles. Preheresy units are very specialized where standard codex units are better in all situations.

I assumed so according to the FAQ written made it sound like it. as the ork squads had to be larger and so on.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:

valace2 wrote:
We finally have answer to the preheresy vs standard codex battles.

A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules,they have been fine-tuned and
focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the
Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case.

I like how he ignored this part of it, I really don't care one way or the other I just find it funny he ignored this part.

I chose to ignore it for a reason, how fine tuned are units like flamers and screamers? Two of the top five units in the game, a unit of flamers could take down a primarch at a 3rd of the cost.

Also you will note down the page, they mention that a preheresy vs codex army will be a fair fight and the only difference will be some different rules, which again as I noted you find with any new codex.

Mindshackle scarabs basically force anything you have to fight itself with no rolls to hit and a better than 60% chance of success every time. Show me any other piece of wargear that is that effective.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

phatonic wrote:

valace2 wrote:

phatonic wrote:
Well as you can note.. horus is clearly cheaper than the other codexies.. thus they recomend it only for house ruling.. GL for Tournament yeh

How exactly are they cheaper? A tactical squad is 150pts base, with no upgrades. They can not take heavy or special weapons as well as ATSKNF, which puts them at a disadvantage. They can take 10 extra troopers which begins to lower their overall points, but again no special or heavy weapons, and let me tell you after several games of preheresy vs normal codex armies makes a big difference when you have a big MC bearing down on your tactical squads. Haven't played anything higher than a 1250 game with them yet, so it might start to balance as you add things like cataphracti and Spartan assault vehicles. Preheresy units are very specialized where standard codex units are better in all situations.

I assumed so according to the FAQ written made it sound like it. as the ork squads had to be larger and so on.

I believe that was added for flavor as the preheresy scare is supposed to be much larger. At lower points its very balanced.

You have to remember their goal is for you to build an entire company within the Legion they want you to spend as much as possible on your legion, I say to heck with that. I will continue to collect, but I am perfectly comfortable running smaller preheresy lists as are the people who have been beating the crap out of my legion.

In this thread: Poster quotes the FAQ which clearly states that the HH rules aren't designed for 40k, then goes on to argue that this FAQ means the HH is meant for standard games of 40K.

Kronk's clear sight strikes again!

 kronk wrote:
In this thread: Poster quotes the FAQ which clearly states that the HH rules aren't designed for 40k, then goes on to argue that this FAQ means the HH is meant for standard games of 40K.

Where exactly does it state that in the FAQ? They mention that it has been fine tuned to play against other preheresy lists.

For that matter do you believe that before a new codex comes out that they play test it against every unit in every codex?

As for the rules being different show me how? Do you own Betrayal? Do preheresy units move differently? Do they not run, or assault in exactly the same way as normal 40k units? Do units have points costs and differing wargear choices? How about the FOC are there not HQ, Elite, Troop, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support choices in a preheresy army?

If its balance you are worried about, I ask you politely to examine the half a decade old Tau codex and compare it to the much newer Necron codex and the White Dwarf update for Daemons.

Can you honestly say that they are they balanced?

The only question I'm answering is Yes, I own Betrayal. It's the best book they've done.

I stand by my earlier post. I have neither the time, nor the desire to teach you how to read English.

 kronk wrote:
The only question I'm answering is Yes, I own Betrayal. It's the best book they've done.

I stand by my earlier post. I have neither the time, nor the desire to teach you how to read English.

Yes I am ignorant. You win.

Even though you couldn't show me where in that FAQ it says that a preheresy army can not be used against a standard 40k codex or where a preheresy army is unbalanced when facing a standard 40k army or even that preheresy changes any of the mechanics of standard warhammer 40k game. Why they would use the cost of a unit with the stubborn trait as a rules anomaly is beyond me, as every codex has units and wargear that are unique.

Again my apologies when I read the words "fair fight" I assumed it meant running preheresy vs standard 40k would be a fair fight.

Forgive my ignorance. They haven't been "fine tuned" against the nearly 6 year old Tau codex, while newer codices obviously have.

 kronk wrote:
In this thread: Poster quotes the FAQ which clearly states that the HH rules aren't designed for 40k, then goes on to argue that this FAQ means the HH is meant for standard games of 40K.

Honestly though, it's pretty much like that with Chaos, it certainly wasn't designed for 6th edition standard games of 40k, nor Tyranids and GK 5th.

Codex writers aint exactly designing for 40k so much as their "Own internal codex" that can be used in a 40k game.

Wow....

Can we all agree to one thing on this debate? FAQ or not?

30k (HH, from now on called 30k) is a "different game" in a way. What GW/FW say's doesn't mean jack, if no one around you likes it. 30k is meant to be played against 30k. You can play it against 40k codices, but don't expect it to be even in most cases. 30k was "balanced" around 30k, not 40k. Even "unbalanced" codices in 40k still have a reasonable balance.

But it all comes down to local opinion. Like really, stop arguing it. It doesn't matter if it's legal or not, it doesn't matter what GW/FW says on the issue, what matters is if the players at your store will allow you to play with your 30k army. I personally don't like 30k, I never really liked the setting, and I guess I would allow it to be played but I have no idea what any of the rules are so be prepared to let me read it a lot.

valace2 wrote:
Even though you couldn't show me where in that FAQ it says that a preheresy army can not be used against a standard 40k codex or where a preheresy army is unbalanced when facing a standard 40k army or even that preheresy changes any of the mechanics of standard warhammer 40k game. Why they would use the cost of a unit with the stubborn trait as a rules anomaly is beyond me, as every codex has units and wargear that are unique.

Again my apologies when I read the words "fair fight" I assumed it meant running preheresy vs standard 40k would be a fair fight.

You're missing some context with just that key phrase. They said it's fair to play a fun game with a 40K army against HH and will be "broadly" a "fair fight" against codex forces of "the same scale".

They give a little guidance on how to adjust, using the HH FOC for example, but don't really describe what "the same scale" means.

They even go so far as to say that the HH rules are meant to be used HH armies rather than 40K standard and "will remain the case."

They give guidance that you can use any forces you like, I'll bring a mix of chess, checkers, and chex mix.

The FAQ really states that they built it from the rules of 40k because it was easy and available to them and play tested and balanced against HH only.

ITT: Horus Heresy is meant for Horus Heresy. Can be played with other game types in friendly games.

Basically: nothing has changed.

In a friendly game, I could fight horus heresy against warmachine.

I could fight horus heresy against chess pieces.

The list goes on.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Fine. Now take it to a tournament...

Again is that all 40k is for you?

This question has been asked many time I am sure, but why do you play 40k? Is it only to play it in tournaments? Is that all it is?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
ITT: Horus Heresy is meant for Horus Heresy. Can be played with other game types in friendly games.

Basically: nothing has changed.

In a friendly game, I could fight horus heresy against warmachine.

I could fight horus heresy against chess pieces.

The list goes on.

You would compare a legion army list to chess pieces?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

valace2 wrote:
Even though you couldn't show me where in that FAQ it says that a preheresy army can not be used against a standard 40k codex or where a preheresy army is unbalanced when facing a standard 40k army or even that preheresy changes any of the mechanics of standard warhammer 40k game. Why they would use the cost of a unit with the stubborn trait as a rules anomaly is beyond me, as every codex has units and wargear that are unique.

Again my apologies when I read the words "fair fight" I assumed it meant running preheresy vs standard 40k would be a fair fight.

You're missing some context with just that key phrase. They said it's fair to play a fun game with a 40K army against HH and will be "broadly" a "fair fight" against codex forces of "the same scale".

They give a little guidance on how to adjust, using the HH FOC for example, but don't really describe what "the same scale" means.

They even go so far as to say that the HH rules are meant to be used HH armies rather than 40K standard and "will remain the case."

They give guidance that you can use any forces you like, I'll bring a mix of chess, checkers, and chex mix.

The FAQ really states that they built it from the rules of 40k because it was easy and available to them and play tested and balanced against HH only.

"They have been fine-tuned and focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy"

Can you honestly say the new Necron codex and the White Dwarf update for daemons has been "fine tuned" to play against Tau?

So exactly what I said here....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/495777.page#5111498

 washout77 wrote:
Wow....

Can we all agree to one thing on this debate? FAQ or not?

30k (HH, from now on called 30k) is a "different game" in a way. What GW/FW say's doesn't mean jack, if no one around you likes it. 30k is meant to be played against 30k. You can play it against 40k codices, but don't expect it to be even in most cases. 30k was "balanced" around 30k, not 40k. Even "unbalanced" codices in 40k still have a reasonable balance.

reasonable balance?

How so?

Can Eldar field 9 flyers in a game, or do they have characters that can force your strongest IC to attack himself?

Do Tau have units that can kill even the toughest MC merely by rolling a 4+ on a 6 sided die? An Eldar Wraithlord or even the Avatar of Khaine will die horribly to a unit of flamers and the flamers can laugh off a Str10 Ap1 hit and keep coming.

Can you honestly say that is balanced?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't take this to mean I think the Legions should be used in your precious tournaments. I wouldn't dream of upsetting the top spots that Daemons and Necrons hold now, they merely took the place of leafblower and mech blood angel lists from 5th.

I detest tournaments, I am merely pointing out that Forgeworld has said in an FAQ that it would be a fair fight between the two sides. How they can say in one breath that it has been "fine tuned" to work with Heresy era forces and then turn around and say it would be a fair contest between a 30k and 40k army is beyond me.

Why not run a preheresy army in a game? How many times during your precious tournament have you stopped and actually thought about Grey Knights facing Grey Knights or Deathwing facing Blood Angels, or Imperial Guard fighting Imperial Guard.

All the fluff in the world means exactly dik right then and there. Its all about dropping buckets of dice and seeing who wins.

valace2 wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
Wow....

Can we all agree to one thing on this debate? FAQ or not?

30k (HH, from now on called 30k) is a "different game" in a way. What GW/FW say's doesn't mean jack, if no one around you likes it. 30k is meant to be played against 30k. You can play it against 40k codices, but don't expect it to be even in most cases. 30k was "balanced" around 30k, not 40k. Even "unbalanced" codices in 40k still have a reasonable balance.

reasonable balance?

How so?

Can Eldar field 9 flyers in a game, or do they have characters that can force your strongest IC to attack himself?

Do Tau have units that can kill even the toughest MC merely by rolling a 4+ on a 6 sided die? An Eldar Wraithlord or even the Avatar of Khaine will die horribly to a unit of flamers and the flamers can laugh off a Str10 Ap1 hit and keep coming.

Can you honestly say that is balanced?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't take this to mean I think the Legions should be used in your precious tournaments. I wouldn't dream of upsetting the top spots that Daemons and Necrons hold now, they merely took the place of leafblower and mech blood angel lists from 5th.

I detest tournaments, I am merely pointing out that Forgeworld has said in an FAQ that it would be a fair fight between the two sides. How they can say in one breath that it has been "fine tuned" to work with Heresy era forces and then turn around and say it would be a fair contest between a 30k and 40k army is beyond me.

Why not run a preheresy army in a game? How many times during your precious tournament have you stopped and actually thought about Grey Knights facing Grey Knights or Deathwing facing Blood Angels, or Imperial Guard fighting Imperial Guard.

All the fluff in the world means exactly dik right then and there. Its all about dropping buckets of dice and seeing who wins.

Don't take crap so personally....I have never been to a tournament, and never plan on it. It's not how I play, and it's not how anyone near me plays.

My point still stands though, it all comes down to what your local players want to play

EDIT: I need to stop hitting submit early....EDIT2: GAH I did it again

Obviously codices written for a completely different edition of the game, and not even the previous edition, are going to be much weaker. They have things in them that don't even exist in 6th. For the most part, anything written recently is balanced. Now, discount things like Grey Knights and flier spam, because that's more abuse of things than unbalance. The codices themselves are balanced, but people have a tendency to spam and min/max things so much that it makes them unbalanced and broken. I have seen Eldar and Tau players win A LOT around me, I have also seen them table a one-off Necron flier spam army (although, some amazing rolls happened that game). It's all about meta for the most part.

If all you look at is tournaments, yeah things aren't balanced. But that's where min/maxed, spam, cheesy armies love to show their head. If you honestly sit down and on a casual game day look at everything being played, it's not nearly as bad. At least, for my area.

valace2 wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
ITT: Horus Heresy is meant for Horus Heresy. Can be played with other game types in friendly games.

Basically: nothing has changed.

In a friendly game, I could fight horus heresy against warmachine.

I could fight horus heresy against chess pieces.

The list goes on.

You would compare a legion army list to chess pieces?

Just did, brah.

washout77 wrote:Don't take crap so personally....I have never been to a tournament, and never plan on it. It's not how I play, and it's not how anyone near me plays.

My point still stands though, it all comes down to what your local players want to play

EDIT: I need to stop hitting submit early....EDIT2: GAH I did it again

Obviously codices written for a completely different edition of the game, and not even the previous edition, are going to be much weaker. They have things in them that don't even exist in 6th. For the most part, anything written recently is balanced. Now, discount things like Grey Knights and flier spam, because that's more abuse of things than unbalance. The codices themselves are balanced, but people have a tendency to spam and min/max things so much that it makes them unbalanced and broken. I have seen Eldar and Tau players win A LOT around me, I have also seen them table a one-off Necron flier spam army (although, some amazing rolls happened that game). It's all about meta for the most part.

If all you look at is tournaments, yeah things aren't balanced. But that's where min/maxed, spam, cheesy armies love to show their head. If you honestly sit down and on a casual game day look at everything being played, it's not nearly as bad. At least, for my area.

My apologies, sounds like you have a great group of guys to game with.

It is hard not to take things personally when so far I have been called ignorant and people have compared legion armies to chex mix and chess pieces.

You make a lot of good points, from a competitive standpoint Games Workshop cares nothing about balance. What they care about is making money, TFGs everywhere are emptying their bank accounts buying as many flamers and screamers that they can. I have seen it, people out of my area (an area with a great mix of guys and armies) are coming to our tournaments with their Necron flyers and Daemon spam and have damn near killed any desire we have had to run tournaments.

After playing lower point games with my legion against standard 40k armies I am something like 3-6. When people actually sit down and look at the legion unit types they will realize that there really isn't a balance issue. As you said any codex can be abused and that's what some of the people in this thread are harping on I believe. Yes you can take a preheresy unit with 10 plasma guns, but it is something like 300+ points for that unit.A 300pt Storm Eagle can be taken as a fast attack choice but it can be shot out of the sky easily by a 130pt Vendetta or an Icarus Lascannon, in the first game with mine (which was part of a standard Dark Angel list) it was shot down the minute it hit the table. A Spartan Land Raider is a beast, but at 300+ points it can be killed just as easily by a lascannon or railgun as a standard godhammer land raider.

I don't know if its an anti forgeworld bias or what, but I stand by the FAQ saying that it would be a fair fight against a standard 40k list regardless of how fine tuned it would be against another preheresy army. Look at it this way, if you have two vanilla marines lists they should be equal, if they all have the same options how can it be unbalanced. So Forgeworld saying it has been fine tuned for only preheresy play is kind of lame in my opinion. Maybe this is me being a little paranoid, but maybe they are saying this because they don't want people using standard GW models to start preheresy armies, they want you buying Mk2, 3, or 4 armour in droves and the new fancy terminator suits. I love Betrayal, as someone else said it is one their finest works. The options given to the player are amazing. It is what I wish vanilla marines were, because to be honest the vanilla space marine codex is not only outdated but really kind of boring. I know there are people who will defend it, but it you look at the majority of marine players they are probably playing BA, DA, SW, or GKs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
ITT: Horus Heresy is meant for Horus Heresy. Can be played with other game types in friendly games.

Basically: nothing has changed.

In a friendly game, I could fight horus heresy against warmachine.

I could fight horus heresy against chess pieces.

The list goes on.

You would compare a legion army list to chess pieces?

Just did, brah.

You should get a tee shirt with your w/l/d record on it, mighty impressive.

Can I get an autograph?

ITT: Egos abound. Surprised this hasn't been locked yet, not very constructive aside from Kronk's wit.

 Amaya wrote:
ITT: Egos abound. Surprised this hasn't been locked yet, not very constructive aside from Kronk's wit.

Yes Kronk calling me ignorant was the highlight of the thread. He should be commended.

It's cool, things tend to get a bit heated when this stuff is being talked about. I don't know what it is, but I just can't get "heated" in an argument.

And yeah, I can see where you are coming from. At face value, 10 plasmaguns in a squad will beat face on anything it comes against. However, for 300+ points...that's a huge sink....I want it to be known, I have nothing personally against Forgeworld. My group plays casually, so we let it in and found that it's just as good as anything else. I think from what I can see is that Legion armies are designed almost to be played at high points levels (as everything is costly from what it looks like) where normal 40k armies tend to get a bit unruly.

Kinda sad really. GW has such a great opportunity in front of them with such a great concept and story, but they just let it fail with poor rules writing, poor story explanation, and balance fiascos like this. Thankfully, historical games have been attracting me and my group recently hahahaha.

As someone who has actually played 30k with 40k, I can say there isn't to many issues between the two. However you do need to cut "Lord of War" slot from 2000+ games. THAT IS ALL

Honestly, considering some of the cheesy things in 40k, 30k doesn't even surprise me when I'm fighting some of its things. .

valace2 wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
ITT: Horus Heresy is meant for Horus Heresy. Can be played with other game types in friendly games.

Basically: nothing has changed.

In a friendly game, I could fight horus heresy against warmachine.

I could fight horus heresy against chess pieces.

The list goes on.

You would compare a legion army list to chess pieces?

Just did, brah.

You should get a tee shirt with your w/l/d record on it, mighty impressive.

Can I get an autograph?

Oh man. Take a breather and relax.

You're getting really salty over internet conversation; kindof silly and unnecessary.

No one disagrees that you can play 30k with 40k. I just finished a game doing just that.

The point is that your OP literally had no significant content in it. It just said stuff that we all already knew.

Edit: And I charge $15 for autographs, plus shipping. Paypal and all major credit cards accepted.

 washout77 wrote:
It's cool, things tend to get a bit heated when this stuff is being talked about. I don't know what it is, but I just can't get "heated" in an argument.

Kinda sad really. GW has such a great opportunity in front of them with such a great concept and story, but they just let it fail with poor rules writing, poor story explanation, and balance fiascos like this. Thankfully, historical games have been attracting me and my group recently hahahaha.

Wait are you saying Betrayal has poor rules and story explanation? If so, thats not the case . Its a work of art, I wish Games Workshop would put this kind of effort into all of their codices, instead of just giving Deathwing a bunch of sticks and calling them Knights. The new Chaos marine codex is in my opinion very well done, but the Grey Knight, Necron and Dark Angel codices lack any originality at all. Poor rules and story explanation are taking it easy on those two books. How in the hell did they ever come up with Mindshackle scarabs, "here Abbadon fail this roll(which you have a very good shot at failing) and then beat yourself to death. How in the world does that make sense. As I said earlier a lone primarch would take extreme damage from a unit of cheap undercosted flamers. People all over the place complain about Vendettas, but a Vendetta squadron could take down a Thunderhawk Gunship for half the points.

I have wrote up some preheresy lists at 1850 and 2k and they look fun, but can't run them until I finish cleaning frikin resin lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
As someone who has actually played 30k with 40k, I can say there isn't to many issues between the two. However you do need to cut "Lord of War" slot from 2000+ games. THAT IS ALL

Honestly, considering some of the cheesy things in 40k, 30k doesn't even surprise me when I'm fighting some of its things. .

You would have to be an extreme asshat to run a primarch in a low point game. I wouldn't run a primarch until at least 3k and only if my opponent had something that could reasonably deal with him. Not that I can, probably won't see Dorn for a couple years.

valace2 wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
It's cool, things tend to get a bit heated when this stuff is being talked about. I don't know what it is, but I just can't get "heated" in an argument.

Kinda sad really. GW has such a great opportunity in front of them with such a great concept and story, but they just let it fail with poor rules writing, poor story explanation, and balance fiascos like this. Thankfully, historical games have been attracting me and my group recently hahahaha.

Wait are you saying Betrayal has poor rules and story explanation? If so, thats not the case . Its a work of art, I wish Games Workshop would put this kind of effort into all of their codices, instead of just giving Deathwing a bunch of sticks and calling them Knights. The new Chaos marine codex is in my opinion very well done, but the Grey Knight, Necron and Dark Angel codices lack any originality at all. Poor rules and story explanation are taking it easy on those two books. How in the hell did they ever come up with Mindshackle scarabs, "here Abbadon fail this roll(which you have a very good shot at failing) and then beat yourself to death. How in the world does that make sense. As I said earlier a lone primarch would take extreme damage from a unit of cheap undercosted flamers. People all over the place complain about Vendettas, but a Vendetta squadron could take down a Thunderhawk Gunship for half the points.

I have wrote up some preheresy lists at 1850 and 2k and they look fun, but can't run them until I finish cleaning frikin resin lol.

Oh! No! I meant like, 40k's story and gameplay in general. So many cliches and missed opportunities. Betrayal was actually pretty well written from what I have heard.