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So I first started 40k in 3rd Edition, 1999 A.D, when the Dark Angels codex was released in all its overcosted glory. (52 point DW terminators with no 5+ invuln save! 255 point Master of the Ravenwing! )and lost interest somewhere after 4th edition. Fast forward to the year 2013, fourteen years later, I return to the hobby with the release of the 6th Ed Codex to find...

Not much has changed. They still recycle fluff and art, some of it from 14 years ago (!!!) and although the print quality/ design has improved somewhat, it still strikes me as somewhat lacklustre. I never liked the dual rules listing/ army listing format of 4th ed anyway, it essentially doubled the size of the codex for no appreciable reason, and they've removed the entire hobby section - although with online resources, not so prevalent in the nineties, you could get better paint tutorials now I suppose.

(On a side note, after playing, no- enduring, Deathwing in 3rd ed it's finally nice to have all the special rules ever longed for, dreamed of or house-ruled: FNP terminators, Plasma Cannon in TDA squads, turn one full army teleport, no scatter-deep strike, the ability to take something other than Land Raiders as heavy support and Dreadnoughts as Elites... not to mention the then-unimaginable 3++ storm shield save and rending assault cannon.)

The question is, where does GW get off with their decades-long revision schedule? Does it really take 14 years to produce an appreciably better Codex?
And even when doing so STILL recycle bits of art and fluff from decades ago? This release schedule was acceptable maybe in the late 90's, but things have been moving at an appreciably faster pace since then.

Apply this work ethic to any other hobby or business and it would seem scandalously poor form. Imagine if WotC released a new Magic expansion only once every three years
- recycling some artwork and rules in the process!

Games Workshop has grown considerably since '99, yet still seems to devote a similarly tiny amount of effort to developing new codices and updating rules revisions. Are codices really written by one person and playtested by 6-7 people? Surely such an enterprise would require the effort of dozens, rather than less than ten people.

In any case, writing rules and playtesting them does not take years. A working ruleset can be produced in a matter of weeks, if diligently worked at. Sculpting and modeling perhaps takes longer , but with modern industrial tools the process of making molds is possibly the fastest part of the process- especially for a company of GW's size. In any case they aren't working in a void either- plenty of models already exist from previous editions, all that is required is a ruleset be given to them. Does GW delay releases to build anticipation and sell more of the current ones? Perhaps, but starting a new army is a daunting task for any normal player and most players are content to sit and wait for the new 'dex.

The only appreciable reason I can think of is GW's release schedule and business model still being mired in the mid 90's production model. The short run of it is, they have failed to appreciate and take advantage of changes in communicable media where rules disputes and problematic units can be addressed instantly and on the spot- there is no GW Official rules blog to my knowledge or any policy of addressing rules concerns or balance issues in a timely fashion, or even acknowledging them. My only conclusion is that GW isn't hugely concerned with the game itself- ultimately a self-destructive policy. Whether this is due to monolithic company culture, or a simple lack of urgency, or British reserve, I cannot tell.

Codex CSM, for example, the launch title for 6th ed has been widely reviled for having utterly useless units such as Mutilators, etc. How difficult could it be to address and revise points costs in a WD or online article? Is the problem a stubbornness to admit they got things wrong, or simply because this is the way they've always dealt with players in the past?

Let us take for example Riot Games, the makers of League of Legends. I know its a different medium but hear me out. Chances are you might not have heard of them unless you play PC games, but soon enough you should. Within the span of 3-4 years they have taken the MOBA genre of strategy gaming to an entirely different level, to the point where it is possibly the largest e-sports game and game with the highest amount of players online at any given moment, and for a new company in the crowded PC gaming market this is a feat. The best part? The game is free. Completely free. You never have to pay a cent if you don't want to, and anything you do pay for is purely to ease convenience or cosmetic. Having been a League player since its inception, I can discern several reasons for its success- and despite being a simple game there is an appreciably steep learning curve, or barrier to entry. Aside from being extremely addictive and visually appealing, the reason League thrives above its competitors is its utter commitment to game balance, producing new content, and engagement with their player base.

Every two weeks or so the company produces a new champion, who is available free of charge (you can accumulate free points or pay for it) who more often than not
isn't horribly broken in the meta. The game designers post daily on the forum boards and respond to queries and intentions; This is a game with a player base larger than 40k, numbering in the 30- or so millions. The game is balanced at the top tier level of play, and the most important feedback comes from tournament players. All this combine to make the game appealing to competitive players, and in turn benefits the casual as well. This may be due to their status as a new, dynamic company working in a medium in which daily updates can be made to the core ruleset which immediately applies to all players, but there is much translatable to the tabletop game of 40k.

To get to the point, GW needs to change and or update its business model and company culture to thrive in the modern world. No longer should codex releases take years, or need to be the monolithic tomes they are now. Rules design in a complex game such as this needs to be a fluid process, and the internet is the medium which easily facilitates this (and has done for the past decade.) It would be a simple matter for GW to maintain an online, up to date codex for every faction priced reasonably or, Emperor forbid, free of charge- and they have to realise that shafting their current consumer can only last so long, and a new model in which designer-player dialogue is ongoing will keep players happy, keep the game balanced, and in the end benefit GW's profits.

Thoughts?

i dont think GW gives two f s about the game, theyre mainly interested in shuffling the overpowered units to keep the power jumpers constantly buying new models.

im kind of amazed people even still play the game.

Well if this was true the Deathwing Knights, Nephilim, Dark Talon, and Land Speeder Vengeance would be out-cheesing the Heldrake but they're not- despite being the shiniest and most expensive new models GW has put out to date. And even if it was, I doubt their management is so obtuse to not realise it hurts their player base in the long run.

In any case, this conception is tied to their extremely long release schedule and their utter lack of communication with players.

Considering most GW-staffers I know also play and collect armies in the hobby, it's also in their vested interest to ensure a balanced game. The staff discount only goes so far...

Codex releases do not take years. There is about one every three months.

They also have more than one game to worry about.

Yes, if they hired enough writers and staff they could do a new edition and update all of the codex in a two year cycle. They could, but they won't. And they have enough customers who are long time players, that will not be leaving, that don't have to.

A PC game's resources and having to actually produce physical medium is WAY, WAY different. I'm not saying they're doing everything right at GW, but comparing LoL, where balance can be tweaked with a few bits, and WH, where physically printed books and models need to be produced and shipped with international logistics and the like... it just doesn't work like that.

 Evertras wrote:
A PC game's resources and having to actually produce physical medium is WAY, WAY different. I'm not saying they're doing everything right at GW, but comparing LoL, where balance can be tweaked with a few bits, and WH, where physically printed books and models need to be produced and shipped with international logistics and the like... it just doesn't work like that.

But the internet means you don't even need printed books any more.


I've exalted the OP because he's so right. Riot does game balance all right and GW doesn't care at all, and that's ultimately the flaw that will destroy them. This is a wargame, and it's first and foremost goal should be to have a tight, balanced and concise set of rules that is very well tested. Balance should be modified the whole time, through faqs released by pdf, free codices....

It's so obvious and so sensible that GW will never move in this direction.

Veldrain wrote:
Codex releases do not take years. There is about one every three months.

They also have more than one game to worry about.

Yes, if they hired enough writers and staff they could do a new edition and update all of the codex in a two year cycle. They could, but they won't. And they have enough customers who are long time players, that will not be leaving, that don't have to.

Considering I'm assuming it's not the SAME team of writers who are working on each codex, even a three month gap is pretty absurd, if you think about it. Especially for a new edition. It's the way they've always worked I guess, but that's the gist of my argument.

Three months is a bit of a underestimation, really: Here's a sample list of codices and the duration in between:

Dark Eldar (1998-2010) 12 years with no love. The record holders I think, if you don't count Squats.

Necrons (2002-2011) 9 Years in the wilderness.

Imperial Guard (2003-2009) 6 years, and that's for the second most played faction. Not to mention they had an earlier 3rd ed codex in 1999 which was horribad.

Dark Angels (2007-2013) 5 Years.
Minor updates and changes to points costs. No new units until 2013 from the codex in 1999, so 14 years really.

The average update cycle is 5 years. 5 Long years. Just for a set of new rules which can be made up in a matter of weeks, and playtested in a month.

Not to mention
Tau 2006-????
Eldar 2006-????
Sisters of Battle 2003-????

How is 5 years an acceptable time to wait for an update? Maybe GW's strategy is to make players play whatever codex is on hand at the moment- and they enforce it by making you wait half a decade for updates to your chosen army. Actually I'm pretty sure it is. Why not simply improve current codex options to a playable level, at a minimal cost to themselves, to encourage players to expand their collections?


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 lunarman wrote:

 Evertras wrote:
A PC game's resources and having to actually produce physical medium is WAY, WAY different. I'm not saying they're doing everything right at GW, but comparing LoL, where balance can be tweaked with a few bits, and WH, where physically printed books and models need to be produced and shipped with international logistics and the like... it just doesn't work like that.

But the internet means you don't even need printed books any more.


I've exalted the OP because he's so right. Riot does game balance all right and GW doesn't care at all, and that's ultimately the flaw that will destroy them. This is a wargame, and it's first and foremost goal should be to have a tight, balanced and concise set of rules that is very well tested. Balance should be modified the whole time, through faqs released by pdf, free codices....

It's so obvious and so sensible that GW will never move in this direction.

Thanks Lunarman, glad to see a kindred spirit. If GW is motivated by money, why don't they adopt a more Riot-like approach? Riot, founded four years ago, was sold for $400 million. GW's Revenue last year was $130 million. They have all these licensees who repeatedly fail to utilise their IP, even on the PC platform. Space Marine was a joke.
Since Relic crashed 40k Online has been shelved. The only upcoming project is the Warhammer MOBA, and if that takes off it could stand to make more money than GW does itself.

There is no discussion here. All I see is a complaint thread.

I think GW cares just by seen these last two releases. There obviously trying but stumbling about a bit. I've said it before and I'll say it again. They need to get game designers and play tester with skills and freedom needed to get the job done correctly. Something along the lines of the designers for magic the gathering. Those guys really work and re-work to make it solid. There shouldn't need to be faqs within days of a release. And OMG do a freakin spell check for crying out loud. If I'm paying 80$ for a rule book or 50$ for codex it should be properly printed and valid. I should need to lug around extra bits of paper because you guys want to cut corners. Love your games, love your fluff, and love your models, but your guys business calls are ridiculous. Have some pride in your work ethic guys.

There are some very serious flaws in the logic being presented here. Firstly, you seem to be expecting them to be releasing system and codex updates simply for the sake of change - but that's silly. GW (and like companies in general) will release an update when they have something to add. Yes, they could release their rules systems on a two year cycle, but why? I don't want to dish out $80 and completely relearn the game every two years, and I know few who would. Similarly, why would they re-write perfectly good codecies every two or three years simply for the sake of change? It would be an unnecessary expense and effort, and would perturb as much as aid the fanbase. Re-using previous fluff and pictures may seem lazy to you, but why would they throw out perfectly good substance, other than for the sake of change?

As another point, you complain about their sense of balance, yet suggest they should spend less than one fifth of the time designing it. That is a completely flawed stance, and whilst it may be possible to devote huge resources to developing codecies that quickly, it would be unnecessary and even less balanced than it is now. Again, GW updates codecies when they have something good to add, not just throwing whatever ideas spring to their minds in a few weeks.

Thirdly, you have suggested that poorly received rules could be adjusted via White Dwarf, but this has the same flaw as the 'fix the Nephilim' thread. It is not stubbornness that stays the companies hand, but thinking ahead. If they were to update certain poor rules for Dark Angels, they would then have to do the same for Chaos, then Necrons, then Grey Knights and thus is a standard set. This would be an immense effort of GW, and hardly worth making the extra money from the power gamers who complain about non-cheese units.

Overall, no. There is no need for a faster update cycle. As a personal opinion, I would prefer GW to update their rules system more slowly to accommodate for the many armies to be update - this would also mitigate the power shift of new editions just as well as over-quick updates.

yay! we needed another one of these threads!

I liked a lot of the third edition codexes better. I liked the covers better, I liked the way that all the pages were styled rather than plain white, and I liked the layout and rules better. I liked customizations and tradeoffs, and the armories were far better. For one reason, they allowed a much more diverse selection without having to list everything in every entry.


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 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
yay! we needed another one of these threads!

This does not advance the conversation. I'm not mad or anything, just letting you know since I sometimes think of ways that we can all help civility and make good, constructive comments.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Considering I'm assuming it's not the SAME team of writers who are working on each codex, even a three month gap is pretty absurd, if you think about it. Especially for a new edition. It's the way they've always worked I guess, but that's the gist of my argument.

Three months is a bit of a underestimation, really: Here's a sample list of codices and the duration in between:

Dark Eldar (1998-2010) 12 years with no love. The record holders I think, if you don't count Squats.

Necrons (2002-2011) 9 Years in the wilderness.

Imperial Guard (2003-2009) 6 years, and that's for the second most played faction. Not to mention they had an earlier 3rd ed codex in 1999 which was horribad.

Dark Angels (2007-2013) 5 Years.
Minor updates and changes to points costs. No new units until 2013 from the codex in 1999, so 14 years really.

The average update cycle is 5 years. 5 Long years. Just for a set of new rules which can be made up in a matter of weeks, and playtested in a month.

Not to mention
Tau 2006-????
Eldar 2006-????
Sisters of Battle 2003-????

You missed Space Wolves (2000 - 2010)

Also, @ Aun Tier: Try playing Eldar in the new edition. While I agree that 40K is a little too complicated to adopt a M:tG release schedule, for a new edition, they should at least have playtested enough to know which codices are untenable with the new ruleset, and either jump them to the top of the release schedule, or stop releasing new codices about a year prior to a new edition and then release a Ravening Hordes type booklet, and have all factions start from scratch.

Regardless, they do seriously need to put more effort into design and development, by a) hiring more qualified people, and b) hiring more people, period.

OP wrote:Games Workshop has grown considerably since '99, yet still seems to devote a similarly tiny amount of effort to developing new codices and updating rules revisions. Are codices really written by one person and playtested by 6-7 people? Surely such an enterprise would require the effort of dozens, rather than less than ten people.

Yes, however that isnt all they do. (disclosure - I have a friend in the studio design team)

In any case, writing rules and playtesting them does not take years. A working ruleset can be produced in a matter of weeks, if diligently worked at. Sculpting and modeling perhaps takes longer , but with modern industrial tools the process of making molds is possibly the fastest part of the process- especially for a company of GW's size. In any case they aren't working in a void either- plenty of models already exist from previous editions, all that is required is a ruleset be given to them. Does GW delay releases to build anticipation and sell more of the current ones? Perhaps, but starting a new army is a daunting task for any normal player and most players are content to sit and wait for the new 'dex.

You have entirely missed one key point: stock

Yes, making molds is quick. Scultping *really* isnt a quick process (Have a chat to the designers at games day / open day / just those that are in bugmans, you will understand the issue) however GW isnt a mail order only business, able to send out product as they make it.

They are a large retail entity, with an internation reach. To release a codex you have to have new product (why you DID get new models in 2007, actual ravenwing bikes for a start) which requires time to be produced. Making a mold is expensive, but more expensive are the machines you use - and as such production spaceis a real limiting factor. THink about car production - they can produce only so many cars an hour. If you want to increase production, you lay more lines, or run more shifts, etc - all of which costs. If you want to introduce a new line (create more models) you have to have the capacity to produce those, and in sufficient numbers to supply an amount to each store ready for release day

This all takes time, and lots of planning.

THAT is why they have this release cycle. IT means you get a steady drip of new models, new armies and then a mid cycle refersh (also like cars....shockingly enough, it is a model that works) to keep interest up for a few more years.

A release cycle is all very well. To continue to the Riot example, they periodically rework champions in a major way, redefining their skills and functionality. However, as they balance each month, all champions are tweaked and adjusted. The idea is to maintain a constant and perfect imbalance, to keep the meta fresh and the game revolving around tactics.

In 40k this could be approached in a similar manner to it is now. Let's say a new codex every 3 months, which leads to a codex release cycle of around 2 years. However, balancing and adjustments occur constantly on a much more minor scale. E.g. you wouldn't expect new units (and hence stock) to be released each month, but you would expect points adjustments, squad size changes, options being allowed/disallowed and Force Org slot swaps.

The main problem I can see is data gathering. Riot has extremely efficient methods of crunching big data to analyse imbalances in the meta. They can find out the win rates of every item, watch as an item becomes more popular, analyse different group comps in high level play. GW cannot do this a) because the game is not online, b) there are many less games of 40k played than LoL. However, forums such as this, as well as feedback from tournaments could probably provide sufficient feedback, especially since the game of 40k is quite simple compared to LoL.

For instance, it does not take a genius to realise that Vendetta's and Necron flier's are widely regarded as being too strong at the moment. However, rather than nerf them directly, I'd rather see points costs adjustments for anti-flier weaponry, giving more armies the tools to deal with cheap, spammable fliers.

Obviously, rolling and rapid updates to the rules will become easier of the next 5-10 years as rules become more digitalised and e-paper becomes more commonplace. Currently an issue with rapid rule updates is the large amount of paper you'd have to print out!

There is a fundamental misconception by OP and some of the comments in this thread. GW views 40K completely differently than most here on Dakka.

I think most of us on Dakka think of 40k as a game first and foremost. Thus, we get upset at slow releases, unbalanced rules, a lack of engagement by GW and the gaming community. GW has and will always think of 40k as toys/models. The game exists just to help people find more things to do with their models/toys and to help sell more toys. Once you accept that (and there is no debate as GW says as much), you can understand everything GW does. We can complain all we want but fundamentally we are dealing with a toy company and not a game company. They act like a toy company because toys can be around for 100 years, games very rarely last longer than 10.

 Evertras wrote:
A PC game's resources and having to actually produce physical medium is WAY, WAY different. I'm not saying they're doing everything right at GW, but comparing LoL, where balance can be tweaked with a few bits, and WH, where physically printed books and models need to be produced and shipped with international logistics and the like... it just doesn't work like that.

I agree that the comparison to a PC game is kind of weak, but Privateer Press completely updated Warmachine, redid every army's rulebooks and listings and did it all in one big massive release that didn't have players of some armies waiting years after the rules update to see their forces brought into line with the new rules. It *can* be done even in mini games with many different forces available in the game *if* the effort is put into it. Warmachine is also better balanced as a game as well. Flames of War recently released a new edition and gave away free paperback mini rulebooks to players who already owned the hardback rulebook of the previous version. GW could be doing things much differently than they do, but they don't bother which just shows a distinct disdain and lack of care for the players of their games. There is just no rational reason why some codex lists have not be updated since version 4 of the rules nor is there an excuse for them to *still* be writing vague rules and expecting players to "get it" instead of making the rules tight, clear and concise...

I think the OP is a bit extreme in his overall view, I do agree with a good bit of what is there.

Skriker

^
what Ponyjaw said, and to add to that it's important to remember that the online community on Dakka and warseer for the most part is an INSIGNIFICANT portion of the hobby who's complaints while surely sometimes taken into consideration in regards to FAQ's/Errata are surely ignored when it comes to making business decisions. The online community...the really vocal section of it anyway is a completely pointless demographic to pay attention to when it amounts to less then 1% of the customer base.

Orktavius wrote:
^
what Ponyjaw said, and to add to that it's important to remember that the online community on Dakka and warseer for the most part is an INSIGNIFICANT portion of the hobby who's complaints while surely sometimes taken into consideration in regards to FAQ's/Errata are surely ignored when it comes to making business decisions. The online community...the really vocal section of it anyway is a completely pointless demographic to pay attention to when it amounts to less then 1% of the customer base.

Do we actually have any stats on this? I mean, obviously many children play 40k and are probably not interested in a proper competitive game. But I suspect that the largest part of GW income comes from hardened 20+ veterans and that most of these vets are interested in competative gaming. Most popular hobbies: football, athletics, computer games .e.t.c. are competitive and quite balanced.

Thing is, spending money on having frequently updated and good rules would not weaken the appeal of the game for anyone. They act like a toy company, but the biggest part of the user base are not children...

GW makes a profit => no need to change.

Seriously, that's the whole point of all those discussions. Want GW to change, don't buy GW stuff. If you do buy GW stuff, your complains will remain unheard.

 Sigvatr wrote:
GW makes a profit => no need to change.

Seriously, that's the whole point of all those discussions. Want GW to change, don't buy GW stuff. If you do buy GW stuff, your complains will remain unheard.

Actually the more correct statement would be: GW raises prices to counter balance lower sales and makes a profit...the fact that they *keep* needing to do so means that they eventually will have to change once they reach a point where prices go so high that even the most dedicated of fanboys tell them to sod off...

Skriker

I agree that there are major differences between electronic games and tabletop games, so they will not necessarily work the same for updating and release of new product.

However, the argument that GW is about models first and the game second often falls flat. Look at the tyranid dex. Forget that many dislike the writing/rules/stats etc of the dex. If we only look at the models as the central goal for GW to make money and focus their main efforts, things went very wrong, some of which could be corrected and haven't.

Before the current nid dex the army had all its models I think (almost all anyways) and was mainly missing a few biomorphs (eg. wings). The new dex adds piles of new units, some of which have models (trygon) but many don't (tervigon), as well as many more missing biomorphs. Why did it take over 2 years to release a tervigon model when GW made it practically the central unit of the army? Then look at the poor pyrovore - GW made a model but with such crappy rules it couldn't have sold much. A simple errata to fix it (not to make it OP - just an effective choice) would have had them flying off the shelves - money for GW.

I acknowledge that I don't know (nor do many others) what the reasons are for GW to operate they way they do. They are still in business and in my area 40K is going strong even when most everyone recognizes GW screws over customers regularly with slow dex release rates, usually slow, poor and vastly inadequate errata that could make most of an army playable while it awaits its new dex (with new stuff to sell).

For me, I would have purchased far more GW product had they cared for the game (internal and external balance of dexes) and cared about their customers. Now I rarely buy anything new, wont start any new armies and very likely will shelve the game in the near future.

You need to read the recent editorials by Jervis in WD to understand GW's mindset. This is first and foremost a collecting hobby and everything else such as painting, design, and gameplay are secondary. This is why GW is so lackluster and uncaring about the quality of the products or systems they actually release.

 Ventus wrote:
I agree that there are major differences between electronic games and tabletop games, so they will not necessarily work the same for updating and release of new product.

However, the argument that GW is about models first and the game second often falls flat. Look at the tyranid dex. Forget that many dislike the writing/rules/stats etc of the dex. If we only look at the models as the central goal for GW to make money and focus their main efforts, things went very wrong, some of which could be corrected and haven't.

Before the current nid dex the army had all its models I think (almost all anyways) and was mainly missing a few biomorphs (eg. wings). The new dex adds piles of new units, some of which have models (trygon) but many don't (tervigon), as well as many more missing biomorphs. Why did it take over 2 years to release a tervigon model when GW made it practically the central unit of the army? Then look at the poor pyrovore - GW made a model but with such crappy rules it couldn't have sold much. A simple errata to fix it (not to make it OP - just an effective choice) would have had them flying off the shelves - money for GW.
.

Nids' might be a bad example as our models got delayed by the Chapter House case. Agree the Pyrovore has awful rules. GW does not need faster update more frequent updates. What it really needs is just more complete updates. If you can't update all the codex in and edtitions life span, you should probably extended the edition till you have. Or delay the release of the new edition to have the oldest ones updated at release.

 Skriker wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
GW makes a profit => no need to change.

Seriously, that's the whole point of all those discussions. Want GW to change, don't buy GW stuff. If you do buy GW stuff, your complains will remain unheard.

Actually the more correct statement would be: GW raises prices to counter balance lower sales and makes a profit...the fact that they *keep* needing to do so means that they eventually will have to change once they reach a point where prices go so high that even the most dedicated of fanboys tell them to sod off...

Skriker

As long as enough people still buy their stuff, they make a profit. It doesn't matter how many people do so, as long as they make profit, they will do whatever they want.

yay! we needed another one of these threads!

There is no discussion here. All I see is a complaint thread.

I do hate to see comments like this litter up a thread. I have a bit of sage advice for folks t like this: if you don't like a thread,think it's a waste of time, orwhatever then don't read it or comment in it. It really is that simple. For example I can't stand the "What music do you listen to while playing?" or "What should my army's theme song be?" threads that seem to pop up here a couple times a week. But do I feel the need to clutter up the threads I don't like with snarky "this thread am the suxX0R!!1!!1" type posts? No. I just don't read them.

*sigh*
TR

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:The question is, where does GW get off with their decades-long revision schedule? Does it really take 14 years to produce an appreciably better Codex?

Apparently yes.

Well that was an easy /thread.


Look. Games Workshop is an organization with a limited amount of assets. Those assets that are used for one project are not available for others. And they have a lot of projects to work on, so I am sure they are prioritized based on the impact they will have on sales. Projects assumed to be highly profitable will take precedence over those deemed to not be as profitable.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
GW makes a profit => no need to change.

Seriously, that's the whole point of all those discussions. Want GW to change, don't buy GW stuff. If you do buy GW stuff, your complains will remain unheard.

Actually the more correct statement would be: GW raises prices to counter balance lower sales and makes a profit...the fact that they *keep* needing to do so means that they eventually will have to change once they reach a point where prices go so high that even the most dedicated of fanboys tell them to sod off...

Skriker

As long as enough people still buy their stuff, they make a profit. It doesn't matter how many people do so, as long as they make profit, they will do whatever they want.

Nice way to ignore the last sentence that explains that eventually they will raise the prices so high with their current methods that their profits *will* suffer and they will no longer be able to "do whatever they want".

Thanks for playing...

Skriker

I imagine GW doesn't actually have long term plan as the price increases are a black hole, any hobbyist will only tolerate it to a point where it just isn't affordable. Their business model is to sell miniatures not run a fair or balanced game system, simply put they are a business not an entertainment company (if you get my meaning), they simply do not want or need to have a fair game system as they are still making their profits. The only way they would change that business model is if they were boycotted, and thats never gona happen. Its not about the game for them, its about the miniatures, the paints, the tools, the scenery, the money you spend making your pretty little army. What you do with it after that is your business not theirs.


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And they aren't interested in anything beyond the sale, the rules and game system is just a method to keep you buying and updating your armies. It's not actually their mandate to change why you buy the models, all that matters is that you do.


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And as Skriker rightly pointed out they will eventaully hit a point where people just won't buy from them any more, this IS an innevitability with their current business model. I guess they believe that we will never stop buying, or that they will cross that bridge when we get to it.

 Skriker wrote:


Nice way to ignore the last sentence that explains that eventually they will raise the prices so high with their current methods that their profits *will* suffer and they will no longer be able to "do whatever they want".

I take it, discussing isn't such an easy task sometimes, so I'll try to keep it simple.

Sigvatr: GW prices higher. Make profit. GW keeps doing what they do.

Striker: GW might rise prices too high. People not buy. GW makes no profit. GW will change.

I fail to see a contradiction in these statements, but feel free to enlighten me. Those aren't mutually exlusive, I said what you said in my very first post in here.

As long as GW makes profit, they raise prices.

GW no longer makes profit, they will rethink their business model.

It's simple as that: "vote with your wallet". Either buy it and suck up everything GW does or stop buying.