Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alright sense this has been running Rampent on Dakka dakka i've decided to make a Seperate Thread . the Prevailing issue is People Are claiming that the Vendetta is VASTLY undercosted , which i might agree with but let me throw an example -

Stormraven - Strength 8 AP 1 Missiles , POTMS , Multi-Melta Twin linked , Hurricane Bolters , 12 Marine Transport Capacity , 1 Dreadnought , Assualt Ramp -- 12F 12 S 12 R armor
VTOL
( off the top of my head i don't possess a BA codex )

So thats about 200 Points if i recall eveyone correctly .

Vendetta - x3 Twin linked Lascannons , 12 Man Transport Ability , Can Outflank ( the FAQ said it could not use it's scout move to outflank on the first turn however it still can ) 12F 12S 10 R Armor
Grav Chute insertion -
VTOL

130 Points


Helldrake - Bale Flamer or Hades Autocannon , 360 Degree firing arc from the base along with a torrent Flamer , 5+ invul and the ability to regen Hull points and Vector Strike

Dont know cost i think its about 180 ( correct me please CSM




So im not sure i fully understand everyones argument on how the Vendetta should go up so expedentially in cost , But im making this thread for people to discuss peacefully mind ye

Vendetta should be no less than 160pts, no more than 180pts.

130pts is an absurdly low cost.

Its always difficult to compare units from vastly different codices that fill different roles and have different support units to compliment them.

But yes, Vendetta at 160-180pts would be welcome by me, as a Guard player.

I guess one also argue the Stormraven and Heldrake are under priced?

I think the Stormraven is a collossal waste of resources. It's 200 pts, can't fire on turn one *ever*, and it has many gizmos factored into its cost that don't come up often. I would never use this thing if not for other flyers. Yes, it can get sponsons to become good at shooting infantry, but now its *230* points. That's nuts for AV 12 HP 3. BA players who bring dual stormravens are asking to be completely crushed by good lists.

The helldrake is kind of the inverse specilization of the vendetta. It hoovers up infantry of any type instead of shooting things with AV (or terminators). Note that is has a 5+ invul *and* can regenerate and is not wasting its points on being able to haul troops that all get to die when it crashes.

Vendetta. I think we all know the story on this. Why is the Vendetta cheaper than the helldrake at all? It can strike from far away unlike the helldrake and has STR 9 skyfire weapons. And its transport ability is somewhat useful because the propsect of losing a few guardsmen with meltas or whatever is not game ending like losing 12 marines, dreadnought along with a 200+ stormraven. And 90% of the time, the vendetta is *just as hard to kill as the stormraven*

dakkajet 120points for 9 str6 ap4 bs(3) at most things with TL and 18 shots on a waagh! pinning aswell.
only downside be the 10/10/10 but datz de orky way!

Well then lets look at the Dakka Jet as Phantonic has been so kind to bring it up , that is almost gurenteed to take down a flyer not to mention chew apart infantry and destroy light armor a jack of all trades from looking at that --- And you guys have absolutly no complaints about that ?

What's the AP on the dakkajet gun?

Alright the big fear of the stormraven is you load it up with tough troops and a dreadnought... So lets say you take a stormraven, a venerable dread and a unit of GK terminators... We are now talking 500 to 600 points. Sure it is awesome... Now here comes the guard with a unit of plasma vets in a vendetta make that 2 or 3 for the same cost. Cry me a river about how awesome a stormraven is but I will take 9 TL lascannons and 30 guardsmen over that one awesome flyer (that should get shot down with 6 to 9 TL Lascannons blasting at it).

Vendettas don't even put pressure on your slots as you can take 3 of them and only use one slot in a FOC.

Martel732 wrote:
What's the AP on the dakkajet gun?

forgot to add that sorry! but it's ap4 i love to use this against any army really mostly tau, nids and ig.

I laugh at my opponent when he actually puts things on the Stormraven. No one should fear it. People who do that usually have a weak sauce turn 1, and then it goes down hill from there.

DAaddict wrote:
Alright the big fear of the stormraven is you load it up with tough troops and a dreadnought... So lets say you take a stormraven, a venerable dread and a unit of GK terminators... We are now talking 500 to 600 points. Sure it is awesome... Now here comes the guard with a unit of plasma vets in a vendetta make that 2 or 3 for the same cost. Cry me a river about how awesome a stormraven is but I will take 9 TL lascannons and 30 guardsmen over that one awesome flyer (that should get shot down with 6 to 9 TL Lascannons blasting at it).

Vendettas don't even put pressure on your slots as you can take 3 of them and only use one slot in a FOC.

Contary to that last part , 3 Vendettas Squadrened is a HORRIBLE waste of firepower why would i throw 9 shots on one unit when i could throw those nine shots at 3 different units , so that point isn't exactly good , the only proven effective use of Veterans in a Vendetta is only truely scary when you give them triple melta's furthermore when you do so not only but your sacraficing a troop choice and in the Unlikly event it gets shot down its going to kill all the men inside most likley

phatonic wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What's the AP on the dakkajet gun?

forgot to add rhat sorry! but it's ap4 i love to use this against any army really

Well it's hard to complain really since the helldrake is packing S6 AP 3 template which by definition ignores cover. The vendetta gets AP 2 guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kasrkin229 wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
Alright the big fear of the stormraven is you load it up with tough troops and a dreadnought... So lets say you take a stormraven, a venerable dread and a unit of GK terminators... We are now talking 500 to 600 points. Sure it is awesome... Now here comes the guard with a unit of plasma vets in a vendetta make that 2 or 3 for the same cost. Cry me a river about how awesome a stormraven is but I will take 9 TL lascannons and 30 guardsmen over that one awesome flyer (that should get shot down with 6 to 9 TL Lascannons blasting at it).

Vendettas don't even put pressure on your slots as you can take 3 of them and only use one slot in a FOC.

Contary to that last part , 3 Vendettas Squadrened is a HORRIBLE waste of firepower why would i throw 9 shots on one unit when i could throw those nine shots at 3 different units , so that point isn't exactly good , the only proven effective use of Veterans in a Vendetta is only truely scary when you give them triple melta's furthermore when you do so not only but your sacraficing a troop choice and in the Unlikly event it gets shot down its going to kill all the men inside most likley

At least you would be losing guardsmen and not DCs, like half the BA lists around here want to pack into the Deathtrapraven.

What it boils down to is Volume of fire , compared to Effectivness of fire , i'd say the Dakka Jets Pretty damn likley to shoot down my Vendetta , where as the Vendetta is purely built for KO'ing Armor , the Dakka Jet at least can be mostly flexable in what it does

With 9 STR 6 BS 3 shots? Is it even BS 3 vs other fliers? Or only ground targets?

Martel732 wrote:

phatonic wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What's the AP on the dakkajet gun?

forgot to add rhat sorry! but it's ap4 i love to use this against any army really

Well it's hard to complain really since the helldrake is packing S6 AP 3 template which by definition ignores cover. The vendetta gets AP 2 guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kasrkin229 wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
Alright the big fear of the stormraven is you load it up with tough troops and a dreadnought... So lets say you take a stormraven, a venerable dread and a unit of GK terminators... We are now talking 500 to 600 points. Sure it is awesome... Now here comes the guard with a unit of plasma vets in a vendetta make that 2 or 3 for the same cost. Cry me a river about how awesome a stormraven is but I will take 9 TL lascannons and 30 guardsmen over that one awesome flyer (that should get shot down with 6 to 9 TL Lascannons blasting at it).

Vendettas don't even put pressure on your slots as you can take 3 of them and only use one slot in a FOC.

Contary to that last part , 3 Vendettas Squadrened is a HORRIBLE waste of firepower why would i throw 9 shots on one unit when i could throw those nine shots at 3 different units , so that point isn't exactly good , the only proven effective use of Veterans in a Vendetta is only truely scary when you give them triple melta's furthermore when you do so not only but your sacraficing a troop choice and in the Unlikly event it gets shot down its going to kill all the men inside most likley

At least you would be losing guardsmen and not DCs, like half the BA lists around here want to pack into the Deathtrapraven.

Now i think thats a little bit on their fault for putting Death Company in their , put a cheaper expendable unit thats effective , with BA i think those Assualt marines ( bulky right so only 6 ? ) with a DC dread seems to hurt alot more if it can get their


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
With 9 STR 6 BS 3 shots? Is it even BS 3 vs other fliers? Or only ground targets?[/

i'd say so , all flyers have Skyfire so it would be BS 3 Against other aircaft and its twinlinked if i recall correctly

ive shot down a stormraven with one dakkejet once thanks to the twinlink giving me 13 hits and 5 glances, he only made 2 jink saves, enough to take him down

The BA have not expendable units. They are already overpriced and elite with a low body count. I can not take the risk of giving my own guys STR 10 AP 2 hits EVER. Plus look at how much that is reserving. They may not come in till turn 3. The battle could be over by then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does this gun shoot 9 or 18 times on the dakkajet? Because you can't get 13 hits from a twinlinked ROF 9 gun.

I think the Largest issue is that People don't know how to effectively use Flyers , they expect wonder weapons like the Vendetta Preforms so close to , And its taking a Gamble as well , i traditinally Take 3 Vendettas inall of my List , thats about 400 Ish points if i remember right almost 450 i think --- at a 2k point game that is an incredable amount of firepower to gamble on personally i find that i like the Gamble of epicocity better , but i do not think that many warhammer players use flyers for their purpose

Martel732 wrote:
The BA have not expendable units. They are already overpriced and elite with a low body count. I can not take the risk of giving my own guys STR 10 AP 2 hits EVER. Plus look at how much that is reserving. They may not come in till turn 3. The battle could be over by then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does this gun shoot 9 or 18 times on the dakkajet? Because you can't get 13 hits from a twinlinked ROF 9 gun.

On a waagh the ork boomers have a special rule that doubles the amount of shots on their assault weapons. when not doing the waagh it's the normal 9

Sounds pretty Damn painful , my Chimeras arn't safe , my infantry arn't safe and my Aircaft are only marginally safe

phatonic wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The BA have not expendable units. They are already overpriced and elite with a low body count. I can not take the risk of giving my own guys STR 10 AP 2 hits EVER. Plus look at how much that is reserving. They may not come in till turn 3. The battle could be over by then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does this gun shoot 9 or 18 times on the dakkajet? Because you can't get 13 hits from a twinlinked ROF 9 gun.

On a waagh the ork boomers have a special rule that doubles the amount of shots on their assault weapons. when not doing the waagh it's the normal 9

Okay I was kinda confused there. I don't think 120 points is out of line for something with crap armor and a STR 6 AP 4 gun.

Volume of fire is what makes it scary ( at least to me ) But im just trying to show a similar point , if the Vendettas price is raised people will move to Dakka jets and complain about those

well having a quad gun is your best hope against any flyer really the interceptor rule is a pain, shooting my dakkajet when im done with my movement phase heck its down at once unless i get to hide it behind terrain or he toss allot of 1's

I will never complain about dakkajets. Just as they shouldn't complain about stormravens. The vendetta is pretty unique in its price pointing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

phatonic wrote:
well having a quad gun is your best hope against any flyer really the interceptor rule is a pain, shooting my dakkajet when im done with my movement phase heck its down at once unless i get to hide it behind terrain or he toss allot of 1's

Or just being in power armor? Or being AV 12? A skyrant will tear this thing to shreds.

I'd agree with that , guess alot of it is people need to learn how to deal with situations

The BA players at my local store who don't use the stormraven at all have better records than the ones that do except me. I'm the only one sniffing .500 that uses the damn thing. None of us have winning records.

Martel732 wrote:
I will never complain about dakkajets. Just as they shouldn't complain about stormravens. The vendetta is pretty unique in its price pointing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

phatonic wrote:
well having a quad gun is your best hope against any flyer really the interceptor rule is a pain, shooting my dakkajet when im done with my movement phase heck its down at once unless i get to hide it behind terrain or he toss allot of 1's

Or just being in power armor? Or being AV 12? A skyrant will tear this thing to shreds.

The thing that makes the Vendetta unique is that its at least good at what its suppose to do , you build it for either two things , Killing Infantry ( Valkyrie with MRP ) or Killing armor ( Vendetta ) it is HUGELY inflexable in comparision to the others laying out their ( don't know about storm talon sorry )

Ok the dakkajet is.fairly costed, this is due.to its av10, the stormraven is also fairly costed due to its av12 free mm, assault cannon/lascannon etc. Plus its transport capacity, the vendetta has av12, 3 twin-linked lascannons and a transport capacity, based on loadout alone it's base cost shout be 150pts, add in av12, flyer and a transport capacity and the ability to squadron, it should cost "base" 200pts.

Now if we drop it to av10, I have no problem with it being 160pts, av11 and I again have no issue with it being 180pts.

What does everyone else think?

Martel732 wrote:
The BA players at my local store who don't use the stormraven at all have better records than the ones that do except me. I'm the only one sniffing .500 that uses the damn thing. None of us have winning records.

I think some of it is that people use it as an Addition to their list , The don't Build their List Around it which is what i think is the issue , you have to build things to work together

Inflexibility is irrelevant. The vendetta is a cheap way to keep other flyers from ruining your day, and then after they are all dead, can be used against anything on the ground with an AV, or with 2+ armor. They are brilliant in every way. It's not the guard doesn't have other way to deal with hordes. Flexibility is overrated, even in marine lists.

i use dakkajet mainly as a side armour cracker on sm tanks ive only mett one land raider once, but that i got my deffrollas for but back to topic, the dakkajet its low p cost for obvious reasons anything but str 3 can take it down :p