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I just talked a friend of mine into starting Warmachine instead of 6th edition 40k. Khador fits my play style, but I totally love the Stormwall model. So...If I were to build a Khador force, but use a Stormwall instead of the Khador Conquest, with proper conversion to symbols/icons on the model, and a paintjob to match the rest of the Khador force...would most people be okay with the proxy?

While in casual games this is fine, this is not going to general be kousher for organized play of any sort. This is because models must be mostly be or appear to be the model they represent and the Stormwall is different enough from the Conquest to create confusion on that.

And stuff.

 Blaque wrote:
While in casual games this is fine, this is not going to general be kousher for organized play of any sort. This is because models must be mostly be or appear to be the model they represent and the Stormwall is different enough from the Conquest to create confusion on that.

And stuff.

As I figured. I have no interest in tournaments so no worries there. Thanks for the reply.

I think it depends on how well you convert it. If it is just a red stormwall with khador anvils probably not, but if you really go for the details you could make it a unique model that is undoubtedly a conquest variant.

Here are the guidelines for conversions in organized play. Even though you don't play competitively, at some point you may want to or will be playing against someone who does. For example, the upcoming Umbra league is going to be a lot of fun. In my area we will have a mix of casual and competitive players, but to participate in the league you need to follow the official rules. If you can follow these guidelines then you won't have any problems.

Model Conversions
Players must be unambiguous about model representation.
The following rules must be adhered to when using
converted models in organized play. These rules are meant
not to limit a player’s modeling options but rather to allow
creativity without generating an environment that could
become confusing during game play. At his discretion,
an event organizer can make exceptions to these rules to
approve any reasonable conversion.
A converted model must contain a majority of parts from the
WARMACHINE or HORDES model for which the rules were
written. For example, a Testament of Menoth conversion
must be composed mostly of parts from the Testament of
Menoth model. The end result of any conversion must be
clearly identifiable as the intended miniature and accurately
represent its weapons and equipment as listed in its rules.
Any conversions must be clearly pointed out to your
opponent before the game to avoid confusion.
On warrior models, converting and swapping weapons is
acceptable provided the new weapon represents the same
type of weapon replaced (like swapping one sword for
another). Anything relating to a weapon’s specific rules
must be maintained to avoid confusion on the tabletop.
For example, a weapon with Chain Weapon must still be
modeled as a chain-style weapon, and a weapon’s length
must be considered when converting weapons with Reach.
Weapons cannot be swapped on warjack and warbeast
models. Since many of the ’jacks and beasts utilize the same
chassis or torso, the weapons are the most identifiable part
of the model when looking across the tabletop. Converting
warjacks and warbeasts is still encouraged, but the aesthetics
of the weapons must be maintained. Modifying weapons is
permitted, as long as the end result is easily identifiable as
the intended warjack or warbeast’s proper weapon.
Models/units with upgrade blisters are an exception
to the standard model conversion rules in a number of
ways. Because the parts in these blisters define an entirely
separate set of stats and abilities, the upgrade parts must be
clearly visible on the model/unit matching the upgrade stat
card in order to be legal for tournament use. For example,
a helljack with one claw and one harpoon is not Malice.
The model must have the correct head, harpoon blade,
and all three spirit parts from the Malice upgrade in order
to be considered Malice. Additionally, once a model/unit
has been converted, it can only be fielded as that model/
unit. For example, a Warpwolf with the parts from the
Ghetorix upgrade is not an acceptable conversion for use
with a Warpwolf Stalker stat card. Lastly, in the case of unit
attachment or weapon attachment upgrade, the model(s)
that use the upgrade stat card must follow these rules to
be legal for tournament use, but the base unit follows the
standard conversion policy for warrior model conversions,
above. For example, a Black Dragon Officer & Standard
must always use the Black Dragon upgrade stat card and
an Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard must always use
the Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard stat card, but an
Iron Fang Pikemen unit without a UA uses its standard stat
card whether or not the models have Black Dragon shields
(or any other reasonable conversion).
Miniatures must be on their appropriately sized
WARMACHINE/HORDES base, but scenic details can be
added. The base’s perimeter must always be considered when
modeling scenic details. While it is acceptable for scenic elements
to overhang the base’s edge, the base itself and not the scenic
elements is used for all measurements. The edge of a model’s
base must not obscured to the point that accurate measuring
becomes difficult or impossible.

I wouldn't be pleased with it. You wouldn't be able to field it at a higher class tournament.

I wouldn't let it fly unless it was very heavily converted and well done.

To give you a heads up, there is no practical difference between casual and competitive play in Warmachine.

Your count's as will only work in pickup games with friends and in a casual group.


Which is really a shame because you are missing a lot by autodisqualifying yourself from competitive play. Its not anything like 40k competitive.

I think it is important to point out how wild conversions and proxies CAN work in warmachine. This link goes to Mercykiller's converted stormhammer Khador army. http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?98-Stormhammer-the-Assault-on-Sul

These are Khador models converted to a Cygnar theme but still played as Khador. He has done a teriffic job at reimagining many Khadoran characters and models as part of the Cygnaran army. Here are a few examples of his work.






So if you want to play stormwall as a Khador model you certainly have ways, but it may not quite be in the way you imagined; and that the bar has been set high. Personally I would love to see a reversal to the stormhammer army that had cygnar models made to look Khadoran.

P.S. If anyone thinks those models are as amazing as I do, tell Mercykiller on the PP forms. He deserves the praise.

I'm going to give a differing opinion. I am not a fan of proxying, but I think conversions are great. So is using alternate models. But really most people I have played with don't care that much. Even at some of the FLGS tournies I haven't seen major issues. I have a squire which isn't even a PP model and noone has ever blinked an eye (maybe because it is just a squire? LOL)

The problem I see with using a red stormwal is it is still a stormwall. The weapons are wrong. So you should do at least enough converting that the weapons are all correct. I wouldn't worry about what percentage the model has to be, but instead worry about accurately portraying what it is armed with. That is what really gets me. Models which are not accurate representations especially when weapons come into play. And I am a person who has no problems with guns being converted to missles, magic staffs instead of pistols etc.

IMO, if you take the time to accurately portray the weapons and such I don't see a problem except at the highest levels of play. And the rule of cool is still the most important rule. If you do a good conversion and make it look really cool then people won't care because they are too busy going "WOW!".

But in the end they are your models and it is your game. It's also your money. Play what you like. and if someone else has an issue then they can choose not to play against you. Just as you can choose not to play against them. It really is that simple.

If I did do the conversion, it would include conversion of the weapons as well, not just a paint job. Heres my general conversion list:

1) remove any Cygnar icons

2) small gatling guns switched for small twin guns

3) large single shoulder guns switched for single mount twin gun, or something more similar to the Conquest guns

4) lightning generator looking things on back changed for more smoke stacks

5) make the head look more Khador

Im sure other little details would pop up along the way.


For the time being Id only be playing with my wife and a friend of mine...maybe my older son if he can grasp the game.
The LGS nearest me is an hour away, and I dont have the time to get there often.

Theres always the option down the road to get a real Conquest if I got into issues with my conversion or into more cmpetitive play where it would be required.

If for some reason I wanted

If you convert it well.. most local shops will have no issues with it.

Of course your Milage may vary.

Thanks for all the info guys, will be very valuable should I do the conversion.

That being said...Ive recently learned that Cygnar runs jack heavy armies better than Khador...so Im leaning back toward Cygnar. Lots of jacks and my favorite colossal...that may win the choice.

Yea, Cygnar has the Journeyman caster for buffs.

and most Notable.

the haleys, Strykers, and the big one to me for jack armies..

Nemo.

 Spyder68 wrote:
Yea, Cygnar has the Journeyman caster for buffs.

and most Notable.

the haleys, Strykers, and the big one to me for jack armies..

Nemo.

Yeah, Im fairly sold on them.

 Spyder68 wrote:
Yea, Cygnar has the Journeyman caster for buffs.

and most Notable.

the haleys, Strykers, and the big one to me for jack armies..

Nemo.

Don't forget Kraye and Darius. they have both stepped up their game with the inclusion of stormwall.

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 Spyder68 wrote:
Yea, Cygnar has the Journeyman caster for buffs.

and most Notable.

the haleys, Strykers, and the big one to me for jack armies..

Nemo.

Yeah, Im fairly sold on them.

You'll do decent going 'Jack heavy. I'd probably suggest Nemo2 (General Adept Nemo) as caster if you want to go straight for 'Jacks. His abilties in regards to them are fairly straightforward as far as Cygnar casters go.

That said, watch out. You buddy is going menoth and they can be downright frustrating to deal with if you're itching for 'Jack on Jack action. Menite 'Jacks with support are in a class of their own when it comes to being good in just sort of point-and-shoot mode, while you are going to need to use a bit more finesse to get value.

Stay alert of traps like one of his 'Jacks with Enliven on it. You'll charge in your heavy get 1 hit, he'll walk away and charge you into scrap next turn. The skill threshold he needs to meet to pull these off is much lower than the skill threshold you need to reach to counter them effectively. There will probably be a window right around when you start getting to 35pts where your 'Jacks will feel really underpowered compared to his. Just keep in mind it's just a phase and once you learn how to get through his layered defenses they won't be pushovers but they'll at least feel more fair.

 Mad4Minis wrote:
Thanks for all the info guys, will be very valuable should I do the conversion.

That being said...Ive recently learned that Cygnar runs jack heavy armies better than Khador...so Im leaning back toward Cygnar. Lots of jacks and my favorite colossal...that may win the choice.

I don't think you've read about Karchev or Harkevich if you think Khador isn't good at jack armies.

stewy37 wrote:


Model Conversions
...
A converted model must contain a majority of parts from the
WARMACHINE or HORDES model for which the rules were
written. For example, a Testament of Menoth conversion
must be composed mostly of parts from the Testament of
Menoth model. The end result of any conversion must be
clearly identifiable as the intended miniature and accurately
represent its weapons and equipment as listed in its rules.
Any conversions must be clearly pointed out to your
opponent before the game to avoid confusion.

Hmm. I would like to convert up a Berserker with reposing a bit or two plus some
glued on chainsto count as Drago, partly due to cost. the Drago miniautre is a lot
more expensive.
I would if the above rule means a conversion for Drago for use in official tourney
must contain majority parts from Drago or the Berserker chassis that Drago is
made from?

The problem with Drago is that he's basically based on a "character" berserker chassis - if you compare him to a regular Berserker, Drago is not only larger, but also has more detail and the chassis is slightly different in various ways. I imagine it would be very, very difficult to convert a suitable Drago from a normal Berserker.

I'd recommend perhaps finding an online retailer for Drago where you can get him at 20-25% off? Maybe you could also find a used Drago on Bartertown or here in the Swap Shop.

I do quite a lot of proxing. well, not so much, compared to some very extreme stuff I've seen in the years (from undead skull chuckers used as thudd guns to rect sheets of paper with unit name written on it to replace a whole unit). anyway. I currently use pKaya with a War Wolf as eKaya and Laris, a IK Blackclad Druid as my second Blackclad Wayfarer and a Confrontation Worg of the Waning Moon (random link, model not by me) as Warpwolf Stalker.
I'm currently playing just with firends, and I'm just testing stuff. Apart the Blackclad Druid, that I deliberately purchased to avoid having two identical figures, I plan to replace the other two if/when I will find I'm using them a lot.
So my approach to proxying is mainly for test purposes, and I would discourage purchasing models (especially expensive ones) that you will be unable to use once you'll want to play "official" events.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
The problem with Drago is that he's basically based on a "character" berserker chassis - if you compare him to a regular Berserker, Drago is not only larger, but also has more detail and the chassis is slightly different in various ways. I imagine it would be very, very difficult to convert a suitable Drago from a normal Berserker.

I'd recommend perhaps finding an online retailer for Drago where you can get him at 20-25% off? Maybe you could also find a used Drago on Bartertown or here in the Swap Shop.

I don't really care if the conversion doesn't look like the Drago they sell. Thats not what I am asking.

Berserker, plus chains plus bits = Drago? Y/N

Probably not. You'd have to totally re-tool a Berserker to make
it bigger. I'd guess that a bigger-ized Berserker would pass
muster while a re-posed Berserker would not.

Ya'll keep talking about the size of official models and their stand ins ... but does that really matter that much? Base size is obviously nonnegotiable, however I recall a diagram in Primal showing that a heavy/medium/small base equates to a model with X/Y/Z" of vertical height, no matter the space that the actual model takes up. Perhaps I'm misremembering the diagram? Can check for a page reference tomorrow when I'm home ...

For things on huge bases, I have no idea what the vertical height is, especially in the age of gargantuans (Archangel I'm looking at you wtf?!)

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Ya'll keep talking about the size of official models and their stand ins ... but does that really matter that much? Base size is obviously nonnegotiable, however I recall a diagram in Primal showing that a heavy/medium/small base equates to a model with X/Y/Z" of vertical height, no matter the space that the actual model takes up. Perhaps I'm misremembering the diagram? Can check for a page reference tomorrow when I'm home ...

For things on huge bases, I have no idea what the vertical height is, especially in the age of gargantuans (Archangel I'm looking at you wtf?!)

- Salvage

In a technical sense it doesn't matter a bit. Models are officially cylinders for purposes of gameplay. In a practical sense a goblin on a 120mm base is not a colossal. There are some events with very strict timed turns and your opponents need to be able to tell at a glance what your models are. If you bring a questionable model, even two seconds spent asking is an unfair disadvantage you are imposing on your opponent. Even without timed turns it's easy to trip yourself up and make poor decisions because you are uninformed.

I still wholly support conversions and stand-in models but it must be done well. This is not a game where an unplanned and poorly executed kitbash will go without someone complaining. I don't want that to be confused with modeling snobbery. It is more about thinking through your model in the conceptualizing step than being a masterful modeler that can scratchbuild rivets and details. For instance, if four years ago you made a defender conversion on a hammersmith body and a sword rather than a hammer it would be cool, but then PP released the avenger warjack in wrath and your defender is now very confusing.

We're talking about model recognition not model height.

And model height is used for drawing LOS, not anything else.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:
The problem with Drago is that he's basically based on a "character" berserker chassis - if you compare him to a regular Berserker, Drago is not only larger, but also has more detail and the chassis is slightly different in various ways. I imagine it would be very, very difficult to convert a suitable Drago from a normal Berserker.

I'd recommend perhaps finding an online retailer for Drago where you can get him at 20-25% off? Maybe you could also find a used Drago on Bartertown or here in the Swap Shop.

I don't really care if the conversion doesn't look like the Drago they sell. Thats not what I am asking.

Berserker, plus chains plus bits = Drago? Y/N

Oh, if that's what you're asking then my answer would be a no.

 malfred wrote:
We're talking about model recognition not model height.

And model height is used for drawing LOS, not anything else.

There was a lot of 'Drago is bigger' type language being thrown around, which suggested volume was at issue

In a competitive game with timed turns I can see the argument for quick recognition. I do find the hesitant approval of alternative models amongst Warmahorders a bit funny, but on the flipside I appreciate the widespread community support of conversions, despite (or perhaps because of) their relative absence on the tabletop ...

- Salvage, who has a Counts As shenanigan or two in his sleeve as well

The bigger issue is one of model recognition.

 malfred wrote:
The bigger issue is one of model recognition.

I would call that the biggest issue...does it look enough like what your calling it to be recognized?


As far as tournament play...well anyone who brings anything other than the official stuff to a tourney is asking for trouble. I mean come on, think about it, your going to a place full of people who take their toy soldiers serious enough to have a tournament. Id expect nothing but snobbery and whining in the extreme.

Not really, the people at the tournament probably wouldn't care 2 figs as long as the model is identifiable. But PP has a very strict conversion policy which most tournaments follow.

Its the least you can do in exchange for the airtight ruleset.