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So I've been pouring over the rulebook and pretty much understand everything except power attacks.

Now how they work, but when to use them and such.

For example, I charge with x heavy warjack. At what point can I make a power attack? Before charge/initial attacks? After? Anytime? Does doing this remove an initial attack? I know you have to buy a power attack normally, does this force me to do it after everything? I know my power attack's can't be charge attacks, and what jacks can use which attacks, but this is bugging me. Any help in the matter is appreciated.

it depends on the specific attack. And its all clearely lined out in the rulebook on page 31.

A power attack replaces all your initial attacks, so while you can charge for a focus and then pay another focus for a power attack, it is pretty expensive unless you really need the extra 3" because you give up your initial attacks, and thus your charge attack. In most cases though, unless you are REALLY keen on a weapon lock or a directed throw, you probably want to just spend one focus and Slam the target, getting 3" more movement and smacking them backwards and knocking them down.

Throws are nice for knocking down models other than the target, and against a heavy jack make for a decent AoE in effect.

Head butts knock down the model, which can be nice if you only have one initial attack, or are pillow fisted, and just want the thing to be easier to hit. I don't see it used much.

Weapon and arm locks are odd, but you can do clever tricks by getting behind a model and locking, thereby forcing it to give up its movement and attacks to just break the lock, since it can't move until it breaks, and since it won't be facing you it can't attack after it does. People do that with the cheap Shadowhorn Satyr, but that's the only time I have seen it.

Pushes are cool to use against your own guys to get a little more movement.

Trample is good to get you 3" of extra movement in any direction, as well as getting past a small based infantry screen to the juicy bits behind. Killing a few is icing at that point.

In my experience, slams, two handed throws and tramples are the most useful PAs. The others are very situational.

Slams are nice because you get the movement of a charge plus the power attack. And can buy additional attacks afterwards. The same with Tramples.

 Wehrkind wrote:
A power attack replaces all your initial attacks, so while you can charge for a focus and then pay another focus for a power attack, it is pretty expensive unless you really need the extra 3" because you give up your initial attacks, and thus your charge attack. In most cases though, unless you are REALLY keen on a weapon lock or a directed throw, you probably want to just spend one focus and Slam the target, getting 3" more movement and smacking them backwards and knocking them down.

You cannot charge and make a power attack. Power attacks replace all of your intial attacks, meaning you do that in lieu of using any of a model's listed wepaons. When you charge, you must use a melee weapon or a special attack attached to a melee weapon, which power attacks are neither of.

And stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 juraigamer wrote:
So I've been pouring over the rulebook and pretty much understand everything except power attacks.

Now how they work, but when to use them and such.

For example, I charge with x heavy warjack. At what point can I make a power attack? Before charge/initial attacks? After? Anytime? Does doing this remove an initial attack? I know you have to buy a power attack normally, does this force me to do it after everything? I know my power attack's can't be charge attacks, and what jacks can use which attacks, but this is bugging me. Any help in the matter is appreciated.

To clarify this post specifically:

Models each have a movement phase and combat action. During a combat action a model can do one of the following, as noted on pg. 48 (I think) of Prime, if it is the same pages of Prmal:
- Initial melee attacks (attack once with each normal attack)
- Initial ranged attacks (attack once wiht each normal attack)
- A single special (*)Attack
- A single special (*)Action

Barring special rules, that's all you get. When you charge, this is not a special attack. Looki at it as an option of delivering melee attacks. Normally when you charge, you opt to do that, and then. Charges can only be done, as I said earlier, with normal melee attacks (requiring your initial attacks) or with *Attacks on melee weapons (such as a Marauder's Combo-Smite).

When you do a power attack, you are doing the third option. Power attacks are special melee attacks, but not attached to any weapon, and so you cannot charge with them. Instead they replace your entire combat action. After you are done resolving them, however, you can buy additional normal attacks (the basic melee weapon) with focus. But all of your initial attack options are consumed by the special attack that is the power attack.

And more stuff.

 Blaque wrote:

 Wehrkind wrote:
A power attack replaces all your initial attacks, so while you can charge for a focus and then pay another focus for a power attack, it is pretty expensive unless you really need the extra 3" because you give up your initial attacks, and thus your charge attack. In most cases though, unless you are REALLY keen on a weapon lock or a directed throw, you probably want to just spend one focus and Slam the target, getting 3" more movement and smacking them backwards and knocking them down.

You cannot charge and make a power attack. Power attacks replace all of your intial attacks, meaning you do that in lieu of using any of a model's listed wepaons. When you charge, you must use a melee weapon or a special attack attached to a melee weapon, which power attacks are neither of.

And stuff.

Yep. Power Attacks cannot be used when charging. Just to make this clear for the OP:


Trample - Declare before your movement, instead of of normal movement pick a direction and move SPD+3, and follow the trample rules. You can't make initial attacks (though you can make additional attacks with focus).

Slam - Declare before your movement, instead of normal movement move SPD+3" directly towards your slam target. If you get into 0.5" follow the slam rules. You don't get initial attacks, but can buy additional attacks.

Throw/Headbutt/Lock - Doesn't affect movement, so you can advance normally (but cannot charge/run). Declare during your Combat Action - you lose your Initial attacks and follow the relevent Power Attack rules.

As for when to use them, it's really situational. Usually it's better just to beat something to death, but a good slam/throw can knock down a caster/intervening model and make your assassination run easier. Tramples are great for going over infantry to attack a valuable target in the backfield. Locking a model from behind can completely screw them over - the model has to forfeit movement before attempting to break the lock, so it can't turn around to attack you. Great if a target has something making it very difficult to kill normally for a turn.

Huh, I'll be damned. I'd have sworn that you can use power attacks after charging, just you don't get the bonus damage boost (and sort of did). Thanks for catching me on that Blaque.

So it is just special attacks that can be used on the charge, and not Power Attacks; what about magic abilities that are offensive?

Can you give an example of a special attack you couldn't use because it isn't attached to a weapon?

The castigator's combust attack. It isn't attached to a weapon, so you can't use it after you charge

Yeah, you also can't use it if you are engaged for some stupid reason.

Are you sure about combustion Grey Templar? Not being able to do it engaged?

I ask because it isn't on a ranged weapon therefore there is no restriction I know of stopping you combusting in melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wehrkind wrote:
So it is just special attacks that can be used on the charge, and not Power Attacks; what about magic abilities that are offensive?

Magic abilities can't be used on a charge for the reasons listed by Blaque. But they can be used whilst engaged. So a Warwitch Siren can advance into melee with an enemy model and use venom to attack, targeting either the model they are in melee with or any other model within their line of sight.

Never mind, I confused it with something else.

 Wehrkind wrote:
Huh, I'll be damned. I'd have sworn that you can use power attacks after charging, just you don't get the bonus damage boost (and sort of did). Thanks for catching me on that Blaque.

So it is just special attacks that can be used on the charge, and not Power Attacks; what about magic abilities that are offensive?

Special attacks attached to melee weapons can be used for charge attacks. Magical abilities are not attached to melee weapons, and so cannot be used for charges.

 Wehrkind wrote:
Can you give an example of a special attack you couldn't use because it isn't attached to a weapon?

Castigator/Phoenix - Cumbustion (Attached to no weapon)

Various - Magical Ability *Attacks (Attached to no weapon). So a Warwitch Siren couldn't charge with Venom, or could a Blackclad Wayfarer charge wtih Hunter's mark.

These are what come to mind immediately.

And stuff.

Huh cool. I never really grasped that, and apparently did less than I thought!

Thanks!

Thanks a lot guys, I totally missed the part about doing 1 of the following on page 31.

Appreciate the explanations here too. I didn't totally get it on my first read through. Trying to figure out when to slam with my titan is kinda doing my head in...

 Red_Zeke wrote:
Appreciate the explanations here too. I didn't totally get it on my first read through. Trying to figure out when to slam with my titan is kinda doing my head in...

Generally speaking it's best to slam when you don't feel confident you can kill the target but you still need it out of it's current position. Saying scoring on a Key zone when you're near a scenario victory. The other primary use for slam is knocking down high DEF models. Since anything the slammed model hits with the same size base or smaller is knocked down and basically loses all their DEF, and does so without any sort of attack roll if you slam something that's the broad side of the barn you can make easy pickings of something more slippery. This is most often the case when high DEF, low ARM casters are trying to screen themselves behind larger models like their warjacks or warbeasts. Which are typically low enough DEF for the slammer to hit easily. Then a second model can come in and finish the job on the caster.

If model has the "Follow up" ability, as the titan gladiator does (that's the one with follow up right) you can move after slamming the model. In this case you can use slam as positing tool. Slam into something else you need to kill, or into a position that's better for your beast for whatever reason and walk there. This is a bit more corner case as often the way slams line up is closer to where you'll get killed but it's worth considering.

Finally you can just use slam as a knockdown with +3" of range over something like a headbutt. Even if you can't knock it out of zone, sometimes if something is well protected (say a protectorate 'Jack under enliven) your attacks aren't going to do much and just getting the knockdown is better than nothing.

For example, the other night I had the following situation.


A light jack was engaging my Bronzeback who was well within assassination range of the enemy caster. But that light jack was in the way.

So I slammed the jack with my Gladiator and with that and Follow up I easily got the Jack out of the way. So my BB was able to charge another Jack and with Trainwreck reach the enemy caster to apply some P+S21 love to his face.


Slams are the most useful power attack IMO.

And even if you don't have follow up they can still let you do some damage. You can slam something that was next to another enemy model that you can now buy attacks into.

Yesterday: the following happened

Legion vs trolls pvayl vs emadrak
I lost my battle engine, all my infantry, everything was poised to be destroyed next turn, I had vayl, a sythean, and a nythlim protector left.
madrak was secure behind a wall of def14 or so armor 20 bezerkers a few inches away

the protector slammed along a line of fenblades, boosted the roll to slam, hit the bezerker and knocked him and madrak down, reached over and hit madrak once, he transferred damage to the stone next to him removing it to play.

vayl goes, casts leash on the protector, moving then pulling the protector from combat, protector dies to free strikes, she double hoarfrosts madrak, killing another bezerker and making him unhappy

Sythean walks up and finishes the job like a champ

I think weapon locks are underrated. So you lock a weapon--what does that do;


They can't make special attacks OR power attacks the following turn
Even if they break the lock, they cannot use the weapon as part of its initial attacks--and must buy attacks with it after they break the lock
They can't move away (Enliven)
If they don't break the lock, well they have to live through it another turn

Down side with locks is that it ties up your war-noun for a turn, without additional bought attacks (though I might be wrong about that part, come to think on it) and leaves it potentially vulnerable without having actually damaged anything. As opposed to tossing something out of a control zone for example, so the thing has to give up part of its activation just to stand up.

That said, I am really excited to get a Shadowhorn for jumping back side locking action. Completely shutting down a war-thing's next turn and then just scampering away is a great time it seems

It does bum me out too that light war-things can't lock heavies. That would make things like the griffon really sweet.

 Wehrkind wrote:
Down side with locks is that it ties up your war-noun for a turn, without additional bought attacks (though I might be wrong about that part, come to think on it) and leaves it potentially vulnerable without having actually damaged anything.

You can still buy attacks after performing a weapon lock.

 Wehrkind wrote:
Down side with locks is that it ties up your war-noun for a turn, without additional bought attacks (though I might be wrong about that part, come to think on it) and leaves it potentially vulnerable without having actually damaged anything. As opposed to tossing something out of a control zone for example, so the thing has to give up part of its activation just to stand up.

That said, I am really excited to get a Shadowhorn for jumping back side locking action. Completely shutting down a war-thing's next turn and then just scampering away is a great time it seems

It does bum me out too that light war-things can't lock heavies. That would make things like the griffon really sweet.

Nah, you can buy attacks after you lock. So walk up, spend a focus and give up initials--lock an arm. Then buy two attacks with a weapon--FYI this works really well in Cygnar if you disrupt a tough Jack--or tying something up like the Demolisher so he can't nade your troops.

Tossing used to be superior, until shake came around---although locks are situational.


Although locking a Colossal....

Ahh cool, so Horny can spend a focus to jump, one to lock, then 2 to smack his head into the jack. Sweet

Weapon and Head locks really arn't the best idea. Because you are tying up your jack/beast as well as his.

And the best way to break a lock is to have another one of your things slam the offending warbeast/jack which will autobreak the lock. So its easy to get out of without having the locked thing have to try and break it.

I'd rather Headbutt the enemy. It knocks them down, which makes it easier to kill them, and they have to spend a focus/fury to shake it.



Now it is hilarious to have a Colossal lock another jack/beast and laugh as it fails to break it every turn. But you are wasting your 18+ point colossal on tying down a model worth half its cost.

 Grey Templar wrote:


Now it is hilarious to have a Colossal lock another jack/beast and laugh as it fails to break it every turn. But you are wasting your 18+ point colossal on tying down a model worth half its cost.

for weapon locks, that seems to be the issue, there aren't a large amount of high str jacks/beasts that also dont crush faces whom arm/head locks would be useful.
Off the top of my head, I dont think you can just shake them like a knockdown effect, the model just straight up can't move for a turn, which can be life or death sometimes.

Yes, you can straight up shake Knockdown with a Focus/Fury. Its done in the Maintainance Phase.

If the Jack/Beast is still in melee range I usually just forfit my movement instead to beat down whats engaging me instead of spending a Focus/Fury I don't need to. But if I am not in melee the shake is useful.


This is why Knockdown isn't as powerful as it was in Mk1, when you couldn't shake it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, you can straight up shake Knockdown with a Focus/Fury. Its done in the Maintainance Phase.

If the Jack/Beast is still in melee range I usually just forfit my movement instead to beat down whats engaging me instead of spending a Focus/Fury I don't need to. But if I am not in melee the shake is useful.


This is why Knockdown isn't as powerful as it was in Mk1, when you couldn't shake it.

which is cool, but has nothing to do with me saying that you can't shake weapon locks like you can a knockdown, which is what I said.

Sorry, misread your post.

But still, the Weaponlock is almost completely useless. I'd rather just kill the thing I'm locking instead of hugging it.

Weapon lock is certainly situational.


I hope in Mk III they change weapon lock to "Spend a point of focus and give up only your initial attacks with the open fist being used..." Would make them more viable.

I think they need to let lights lock heavies, if they pass the str test. That would make it more reasonable to use, since the light won't likely kill the heavy, but can slow it down. Plus it is cool to imagine a lot of little guys trying to swarm a big beast or jack to keep it busy.

Of course, I also wish Arguses could make weapon lock attacks, just because.