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This is a rematch between Grant and I. Grant, a member of Team Zero Comp, is taking his Seer Council, Beaststar Eldar/Dark Eldar (which I shall call Deldar) to the BAO. Last week we had a practice match and his deldar just dominated my tyranids. I even got the 1st turn alpha-strike and reduced his dark eldar beastmasters deathstar unit from deadly to just annoying....and he still managed to beat me badly, mainly with his seer council. BTW, here is that report:

It's showtime - SonsofGrant V.S JY2

So I immediately challenged him to a rematch. I believe my bugs should be able to perform better than it did the first time around, especially now that I have had actual experience playing against his army. I actually learned a lot from our game. Hopefully, that will help me to beat him the 2nd time around. While my opponent did change up his list slightly (got rid of the quad-gun as it did nothing the first game), there is no modification to my tyranid list at all. No, I am going to try to take on his army with the exact same army I've been using recently and I am going to try to beat him using strategy. It is a bad matchup for my tyranids due to Runes of Warding, but I feel that there is no reason why I cannot beat the combination of eldar and dark eldar.


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1750 Hive Fleet Pandora (Jy2)

Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers
Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers

Doom of Ma'lantai - Mycetic Spore
3x Hive Guards
2x Zoanthropes

Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs
10x Termagants
Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs
10x Termagants

15x Gargoyles - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

2x Biovores
2x Biovores



1750 Eldar / Dark Eldar (SonsofGrant)

My opponent modified his list slightly from our last fight. He didn't feel that the quad-gun contributed to his army at all so he scrapped it. I then warned him that at the BAO, he's definitely going to encounter a lot more flyers than he will tyranids. Thus, he should reconsider for his Take-All-Comer's deldar list.

I don't have his exact list so my guessimate list may be a little off.


Farseer - Jetbike, Doom, Fortune, Spirit Stones, Runes of Warding/Witnessing
Eldrad
Baron

10x Seer Council - Jetbikes, 5-6x Destructors, Enhance, Embolden

3x Guardian Jetbikes
3x Guardian Jetbikes
3x Guardian Jetbikes
10x Kabalite Warriors - 1x Splinter Cannon
10x Kabalite Warriors - 1x Splinter Cannon

Beastmasters - 5x Beastmasters, 10x Khymerae, 6x Razorwings

Aegis Defense Line


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Mission: Bay Area Open Scenario #4 - Crusade (4pts) & The Emperor's Will (3pts)

The way the BAO scenarios work is this. There are always 2 book missions, one worth 4 points and the other worth 3 points. There are also the 3 bonus points - First Blood, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker - for a possible total of 10 points. Whoever gets the most points wins. In scenario #4, Crusade is worth 4-points and The Emperor's Will worth 3-points.


Deployment: Dawn of War


Initiative: Deldar


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Pre-game Analysis will be coming out tomorrow if you want to hold off on the voting, but a few key things to keep in mind:


- Both scenarios are mission-based, which is better for my bugs.

- Eldar is going first, meaning that they will get the chance to cast their psychic powers.

- The dastardly Eldrad gets Misfortune! That is one scary power.

- Miraculously, I get Endurance for every single psyker in my army (with the exception of the Doom)!


Interested in hearing how you think I should deal with my opponent's 2 deathstars. I really had problems against them in my last game.

This is definitely one of the harder match-ups for Nids. I'll be interested to see how it turns out. I'm actually leaning towards a Tyranid victory.

I would probably go for First Blood in this game. Kill a unit of warriors, then focus on his razorwings with flyrant precision shots. I think first blood should take the game.

- You should be able to handle all of his scoring units without much trouble. He might be able to stop your troops, but it should be a hard fight. Objectives are a draw - possibly tyranids grab one or two.
- Neither warlord should die. His is super survivable. Yours shouldn't be grounded with his small amount of shooting. Even if he does ground your flyrant, he needs to focus on your troops.
- Both players can get linebreaker. He gets an unkillable farseer or council. You get a flyrant or a spore pod/doom.

Nids always have trouble versus space elves. I'd like to see the bugs victorious but I think it will most likely result in a narrow, hard-fought Eldar victory thanks to Runes of Warding.

I'm cheering for the gribblies but I can't see them winning, sadly.

It should be Eldar victory. The only troublesome units for them are hive tyrants and possibly doom.

I vote Eldar/DEldard, they are the nemesis of the nids, poison and psychic denial is the bane of the bugs.

That seer council might prove a reall issue also

Like Siphen, I would go after his troops.
I would try to protect the tervigons from assault, hoping to get as many units off them as possible. A lot of stuff would die to the deathstars but he might not have enough time to kill all.

Voted deldar though, hope you prove me wrong

PRE-GAME ANALYSIS:

Tyranids:
My strategy for the 1st game was to go after his beastpack. Let his deer council (that's a seer council with a dark eldar ally) come to me. I felt that I had enough resiliency to survive the offense of his deer council. His beastpack, however, will wipe out almost any unit that they charge. Then hit the troops that I can, mainly with my biovores. If I could contain the deathstars, then I felt that I had a chance to win it.

For this game, what will be my strategy? It will be the same. Go after his beastpack and let his deer council come to me. Then try to kill the troops that I can. I felt I had the right strategy in the first game. It was just that my execution was off (and his saves for his council were stupendous). However, my opponent would throw me in for a loop this game. He puts the Baron with the seer council instead! Now I can't tie up his council because he can just Hit & Run out of there. Good strategy on his part.

It is fortunate that I got so many Endurance powers. Against witchblades and poison attacks, Endurance is much, much better than Iron Arm. Now I have 2 chances to FNP my flyrants - I shall try to cast it on them first with my zoanthropes and if they fail, my flyrants can cast it on themselves. However, to my chagrin, my opponent gets Misfortune (if forces one unit to re-roll successful saves) for Eldrad. Why is it so bad for me on Eldrad? Because Eldrad can cast it twice and at 2 different units as well. Eldrad also got Terrify. I need to be careful of that power because now his deathstars can sweeping advance my TMC's (Tyranid monstrous creatures) in assault.

Runes is and will always be a headache for my army. With Runes, there is only about a 50% chance for my psychic powers to go off and then about 40% chance that I suffer Perils. However, I will just have to keep on keeping on. I need Endurance on my main guys (flyrants) in order to have any chance against his army.

Overall, I think deldar is a slight favorite in this battle. I'd say the chances for a tyranid victory is 40-60. Much of the outcome will depend on how successfully I can cast my powers and how "hot" my opponent gets with his saves. If his deer council saves anything like they did in our last game, I could be in for a long game. But if they start rolling more average, then I can conceivably beat his council in a war of attrition. However, joining the Baron to his council was a good move. Now it's going to be much, much harder to pin them down


Deldar:
As my opponent doesn't post often here on dakka, I will give my perspective of the battle as deldar. The way he normally play (at least against my army) is this: he deploys only his 2 deathstars. The rest of his army - his troops - stay in reserves. Why can he do this? Because those damn bikes of his can move up to 48"!!! Because of that, they are actually really hard to catch and kill. If I commit my flyrants to them, it is very inefficient for my flyrants to try to fly to the 4 corners of the table, especially when the rest of my army needs their support to deal with the 2 deathstars. In this case, those 2 deathstars just cannot be ignored because of their damage output. Without the help of the flyrants, they will literally steamroll the rest of my army.

Although he is lacking in power weapons, the combination of his psychic powers will help to make up for that. Eldrad can cast Prescience on both units to give them both re-rolls to hit. Then he casts Misfortune on 1 unit to force me to re-roll successful saves. Finally the jetseer (farseer on bike) casts Doom to give him re-rolls to wound. That is especially helpful to his beastpack as it gives them more chances to rend. Overall, this is what I am looking at. He gets re-rolls to hit, re-rolls to wound and I have to re-roll all successful saves. That is why I need Endurance on my VIP units. They will die quite easily otherwise.

My opponent's only weakness is that he doesn't have much to try to shoot down my flyrants. I know that his warriors will be coming in from reserves and thus can avoid (or at the very least, minimize) their firepower with proper positioning from my flyrants. Then as soon as they come in, I have the biovores and the Doom to deal with them. The guardian jetbikes, however, I will probably have to ignore. Also, Precision Shots from my flyrants will play a big role in this game. It is because of PS why I don't fear his beastpacks - I can render them quite harmless with just 1 turn of shooting from my 2 flyrants. On average, I will probably get 3 precision shots each and I can always position my flyrants to deny cover to his beastpack. That means I can easily insta-kill his very dangerous razorwing flocks with their 5 Wounds and 5 rending attacks. Now I just have to worry about his deer council. There's not much really that I can do against them other than to throw tons of bodies at them and hope they start to die.



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Deployment:




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Deldar 1




Tyranids 1




Deldar 2




Tyranids 2




Deldar 3




Tyranids 3




Deldar 4




Tyranids 4

Good luck jy2! I'm pulling for you. : )

I'm really, really interested to see this one. I question taking Eldrad over a Bikeseer with four powers to go with the Beastpack, but we shall see how your opponent runs his list. Should be really interesting as always!

This game should be all about movement and positioning.

The magical number is 24”. If you stay 24” away from Eldrad he can’t cast misfortune on you. The range of the Jetbikes and Seer Council is 24” (move+12” range), and the shooting range of the warrior’s splinter rifles

I would just fly around with my hive tyrants and shoot away at him while trying to stay at range. Beast packs do not like strength 6 shooting because they double out razorwing flocks.

If I was playing the Nids I would just ignore the seer council and just bubble wrap with gants and just have them kill a squad a turn while concentrating on the beast pack and then the troops.

Siphen wrote:
This is definitely one of the harder match-ups for Nids. I'll be interested to see how it turns out. I'm actually leaning towards a Tyranid victory.

I would probably go for First Blood in this game. Kill a unit of warriors, then focus on his razorwings with flyrant precision shots. I think first blood should take the game.

- You should be able to handle all of his scoring units without much trouble. He might be able to stop your troops, but it should be a hard fight. Objectives are a draw - possibly tyranids grab one or two.
- Neither warlord should die. His is super survivable. Yours shouldn't be grounded with his small amount of shooting. Even if he does ground your flyrant, he needs to focus on your troops.
- Both players can get linebreaker. He gets an unkillable farseer or council. You get a flyrant or a spore pod/doom.

First Blood won't be easy. He will be putting all his vulnerable units in reserves. On the other hand, I will have a lot of easy First Blood targets.

Trying to take out his scoring units will be hard. My army just doesn't have the mobility or long-range shooting to take out his jetbikes.

 JGrand wrote:
I'm really, really interested to see this one. I question taking Eldrad over a Bikeseer with four powers to go with the Beastpack, but we shall see how your opponent runs his list. Should be really interesting as always!

Eldrad is a much better psychic buffer due to his ability to use 3 psychic powers and the same power twice. He can work if you do the conga-line.

 Blackmoor wrote:
This game should be all about movement and positioning.

The magical number is 24”. If you stay 24” away from Eldrad he can’t cast misfortune on you. The range of the Jetbikes and Seer Council is 24” (move+12” range), and the shooting range of the warrior’s splinter rifles

I would just fly around with my hive tyrants and shoot away at him while trying to stay at range. Beast packs do not like strength 6 shooting because they double out razorwing flocks.

If I was playing the Nids I would just ignore the seer council and just bubble wrap with gants and just have them kill a squad a turn while concentrating on the beast pack and then the troops.

Unfortunately, I just won't be able to keep that 24" from him. Maybe to the splinter rifles only but not to his deathstars and psychic powers. Yeah, I don't normally assault with my flyrants unless I absolutely have to or unless I think that I can win combat in my opponent's turn.

It's going to be hard to ignore the seer council with bubble wraps. Multiple destructors will just poke a hole in my bubble wrap and still allow him to multi-assault.

I would like to see a nid win.

Can you go over the terrain rulings? I am assuming the larger bases are area terrain? You know what they say, it's never safe to assume. Only reason I ask is pending terrain, I wouldn't say that the beasts were as vulnerable to the flyrantrs precision shots as they can move through it without penalty while gaining the 5++. No real over view yet either

The flat terrain is area terrain (forests). We just took out the trees. The hills are open terrain, 2" to go up or down unless you are jump infantry/jetbikes.

But terrain won't play a big part, because as you will soon see, the seer council will give them cover with their 36" turbo-boost move.

I would launch all the biovores at his beast pack. Focus on the barron if he is in the middel. If he has a very good terain save then perhpas the sheer cousil. Put up a wall of gargoyles around your flyrants, use these to shoot down the seer counsil. That is what I would do.

Pinning the Beasts was huge, Biovores MVP
Maybe starting the Baron in the Beastpack like in game 1 was not such a bad idea. Edit: Eldrad is there, nvm.

Battle report completed.

The pin test lost him the match. Though i am not sure how the feth he screwed the pooch on the baron. I think I am a bigger fan of the list with vect or maugan and beasts. Fearless and H&R is the key to making that beast unit work. Seer council (please never use deer council again ) is good but he over committed them im afraid, i think his luck in your first match made him over confident.

I actually think you had the much better luck this game. You really should not be hitting so often with the biovores. You pretty much hit every turn which is laughably lucky but he really should have gotten a clue and spread his guys.

I am also a bit more of a fan of more area terrain as well, hills just seem to look like you have a lot of terrain but don't impact a game much. Same with the towers but again, perhaps it because you forgot the shot of the whole table

Good Game.

Great report. I was surprised that Council got killed off. His saves must have been awful.

Eldrad is a much better psychic buffer due to his ability to use 3 psychic powers and the same power twice. He can work if you do the conga-line.

I like Eldrad and realize his potential, but he slows the pack down too much. He doesn't even have fleet, which is pretty major. I think the Bike-seer has more synergy.

This battle really highlights some important aspects of the Council. The Baron (or a Tau HQ with VRT) is crucial because of hit and run. Without it, I've been stuck in with little fearless units all game.

Invisibility really would have helped here. I roll on Telepathy until I get Hallucination and Invisibility. Those powers change games. I'm surprised to see Prescience (unless you already roll three times and get the powers you want) and even more so Psychic Shriek.

Invisibility really would have helped here. I roll on Telekinesis until I get Hallucination and Invisibility. Those powers change games. I'm surprised to see Prescience (unless you already roll three times and get the powers you want) and even more so Psychic Shriek.

You mean Telepathy. I'm not surprised by Psychic Shriek in the least. It's a great power, and I would trade out a power like Dominate, Mental Fortitude, or Puppet Master, from the Telepathy tree for it in a heart beat.

You mean Telepathy. I'm not surprised by Psychic Shriek in the least. It's a great power, and I would trade out a power like Dominate, Mental Fortitude, or Puppet Master, from the Telepathy tree for it in a heart beat.

My mistake. I would argue that Puppet Master is better than Psychic Shriek though. In addition, by taking powers, you re-roll if you roll them twice. Thus, while I may not want Dominate if I roll it first, second, or third, I will probably keep it as it ups my chances of getting the powers I do want. If by the fourth roll I already have the ones I want, I often just take Prescience.

I stand by the statement that Invisibility in particular would have helped.

Was he using his Destructors? I know it's a silly question but on many pictures we can see a pile of gants during Movement phase and then the same pile during Assault phase. It looks as if he wasn't using them.
Destructors with Hit & Run combo could easily kill those gants, so in Combat he would only need to fight the big bugs.

 Red Corsair wrote:
The pin test lost him the match. Though i am not sure how the feth he screwed the pooch on the baron. I think I am a bigger fan of the list with vect or maugan and beasts. Fearless and H&R is the key to making that beast unit work. Seer council (please never use deer council again ) is good but he over committed them im afraid, i think his luck in your first match made him over confident.

I actually think you had the much better luck this game. You really should not be hitting so often with the biovores. You pretty much hit every turn which is laughably lucky but he really should have gotten a clue and spread his guys.

I am also a bit more of a fan of more area terrain as well, hills just seem to look like you have a lot of terrain but don't impact a game much. Same with the towers but again, perhaps it because you forgot the shot of the whole table

Good Game.

He allocated 2 gants worth of attacks (40+ attacks) on the Baron and failed 2 consecutive 2+ saves. While statistically, the Baron should have survived, but those things happen. At least it was better than him getting 1-shotted by a hive guard (as in the game of Frankie vs Reece or Grant vs Frankie).

Dark Eldar + Seer Council = Deer Council. Do the math....it adds up.

Yeah, this was quite a reversal from our first game. In our first game, he had the luck and my rolling was normal. In this game, I had the luck and his saves were much more normal. My biovores did much, much better in this game than in my first game (where they were practically a non-factor). Here, they made all the difference in the world, pinning 3 units and wiping out both units of kabalite warriors. But what really was the difference-maker here was FNP and getting all those Endurances in the first place. Without Endurance, probably both of my flyrants would have been dead, but thanks to the zoans, every turn I was able to put Endurance on them. That also help to offset Misfortune, which probably caused 3-4 wounds on my tyrants where I originally successfully saved. Of course it helped that he made some mistakes - like doing some questionable multi-assaults and not spreading his warriors out (though it was arguably a decent trade - his warriors for the Doom).

In the future, I will probably add more terrain, although we both agreed that the terrain was ok in this game. Actually, it was the exact same terrain this game that we used in our last game (when his deldar kicked my arse).

 JGrand wrote:
Great report. I was surprised that Council got killed off. His saves must have been awful.

No, his saves were more average this time. Last game, he was rolling quite well. Also, keep in mind that he was in assault this game with multiple MC's. Against those, he only got his re-rollable 4+ invulns as opposed to the re-rollable 3+'s against my gribblies.

I can tell you that a gang-bang of tyranid gribblies and biggies will wear out the seer council on average, especially if I can throw in multiple MC's in there.

Eldrad is a much better psychic buffer due to his ability to use 3 psychic powers and the same power twice. He can work if you do the conga-line.

I like Eldrad and realize his potential, but he slows the pack down too much. He doesn't even have fleet, which is pretty major. I think the Bike-seer has more synergy.

This battle really highlights some important aspects of the Council. The Baron (or a Tau HQ with VRT) is crucial because of hit and run. Without it, I've been stuck in with little fearless units all game.

Invisibility really would have helped here. I roll on Telepathy until I get Hallucination and Invisibility. Those powers change games. I'm surprised to see Prescience (unless you already roll three times and get the powers you want) and even more so Psychic Shriek.

I definitely see the synergy another jetseer brings to the army. It guess it all comes down to preference. Do you prefer more psychic powers or do you prefer more mobility. Personally, if I was running such a list, I would take Eldrad.

Yeah, the Baron is actually the guy that makes this list work. Without him, it's easy to just tarpit the seer council.

Invisibility is definitely pretty sweet. I actually told my opponent that he should consider rolling for the Telepathy powers first and to save the last one for Divination, but it appears that he likes Divination powers more. Psychic Shriek is still a good power compared to some of the other powers on the the chart.

Good comeback Jy2!

It's surprising how many pinning tests were failed. Eldar are known for having high LD. Biovores should be contender for MVP.

You did well on turn 4 when position your Flyrant where the wounds will be allocated to the Beastpack before they reach Eldrad. Smart tactic constantly pummeling the Seer council each turn. They are exceptionally good against small isolated units, but should struggle when numbers bears down on them.

Thanks for sharing!

Very good performance there Jy2 it's great to see you bounce back and take this one! Im thinking you guys need a tiebreaker to see who comes out on top.

rollawaythestone wrote:

Invisibility really would have helped here. I roll on Telekinesis until I get Hallucination and Invisibility. Those powers change games. I'm surprised to see Prescience (unless you already roll three times and get the powers you want) and even more so Psychic Shriek.

You mean Telepathy. I'm not surprised by Psychic Shriek in the least. It's a great power, and I would trade out a power like Dominate, Mental Fortitude, or Puppet Master, from the Telepathy tree for it in a heart beat.

I would keep Puppet Master. The rest I wouldn't mind trading for Psychic Shriek.

macexor wrote:
Was he using his Destructors? I know it's a silly question but on many pictures we can see a pile of gants during Movement phase and then the same pile during Assault phase. It looks as if he wasn't using them.
Destructors with Hit & Run combo could easily kill those gants, so in Combat he would only need to fight the big bugs.

No, he never used his destructors at all. He was afraid of over-killing - wipe out a squad of gants and then deny himself the multi-charge (or any charge at all). That's the thing about destructors. They are good against MEQ's and TEQ's but against gribblies, they work too well and you run the risk of screwing yourself out of a charge if you kill too many (or all).

 SabrX wrote:
Good comeback Jy2!

It's surprising how many pinning tests were failed. Eldar are known for having high LD. Biovores should be contender for MVP.

You did well on turn 4 when position your Flyrant where the wounds will be allocated to the Beastpack before they reach Eldrad. Smart tactic constantly pummeling the Seer council each turn. They are exceptionally good against small isolated units, but should struggle when numbers bears down on them.

Thanks for sharing!

I'm not surprised about the LD8 warriors, but pinning Eldrad and the beasts was a nice surprise. Biovores definitely are a candidate, though I would say it took a total team effort this game.

Flyrants are a good counter to the beastpack. Bring 2 flyrants and that beastpack is screwed unless it can get Invisibility. Flyrants can move to advantageous positions to deny them cover and precision shots will just mess them up. It is because of the flyrants why I am able to to compete with this particular eldar build (actually....against most army builds).

And against the seer council, you just have to hit them with everything and then the kitchen sink. Tyranids don't have a shortcut around them. The only thing they can do (and fortunately, they are good at) is throwing numbers and MC's at the opponent in a team effort.

 y0disisray wrote:
Very good performance there Jy2 it's great to see you bounce back and take this one! Im thinking you guys need a tiebreaker to see who comes out on top.

If I play him again, it'll be with my wraithwing necrons to give him some practice (and to give me some variety in gameplay...playing the same army with the same army 3 times in a row will probably get me too sick of the matchup).

Wow man well played to get the victory, big turn around from the last game, I think this calls for a rubber match.

Great game! Runes of warding didn't seem to be too much of a hurdle for you, but misfortune was really painful (as it is in most games).

The biovores did perform really well. However, from your past reports, they seem to be highly variable. Sometimes they star, sometimes they're relatively ineffective.

I wonder about 2 units of 2 though. Is it worth going for one unit of 2 and two units of 1 so that you can spread your fire (if you want)? I see that this could be risky for first blood, but your oppontent can probably pick of a small gant squad if they want anyway (especially if the biovores are a long way away).

Eldercaveman wrote:
Wow man well played to get the victory, big turn around from the last game, I think this calls for a rubber match.

We shall see. I'll probably need to play a couple of other armies first before I go up against his deldar army again....just for the sake of variety.

 DexKivuli wrote:
Great game! Runes of warding didn't seem to be too much of a hurdle for you, but misfortune was really painful (as it is in most games).

The biovores did perform really well. However, from your past reports, they seem to be highly variable. Sometimes they star, sometimes they're relatively ineffective.

I wonder about 2 units of 2 though. Is it worth going for one unit of 2 and two units of 1 so that you can spread your fire (if you want)? I see that this could be risky for first blood, but your oppontent can probably pick of a small gant squad if they want anyway (especially if the biovores are a long way away).

I actually did much better this time despite runes. I probably managed to cast 2/3 of my powers, and it really helped that I had my zoans to help cast powers. They finally contributed in one of my games.

For my biovores, out of 5 games, they usually do very well in 1 game, above average in 1 game, about average in 2 games and bad in one game. So usually, they can make back their points in most cases. However, biovores carry some other advantages other than the just pure anti-infantry firepower. They are a psychological threat that takes the opponent out of their comfort zone. For example, if I didn't have biovores in this game, my opponent wouldd have just left his troops on the table so that they can fire from Turn 1. However, my biovores caused him reserve all his troops, thus reducing his firepower. In a game versus daemons, my biovores caused the daemons to have to make difficult choices - either stay bunched up where they are in order to shoot or run to spread out and away from my biovore blasts.

I would go for the 2x2. Multiple barrages can be much more accurate, because if you roll a hit, you can move the blast marker around (as long as it is touching the very first maker). Also, cover for the opponent becomes much harder to get.