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 Grot 6 wrote:


No. You are missing the point.

It is not exactly in this case about "Not being able to afford a 35.00 book."

Please ignore the sideshows, and look back at the base discussion in the blog posting.

This issue here is not about the price. It is about access.

Of course I would have preferred to walk into my flgs and get the book, but being able to order it directly through GW still provides access for everyone to have it, and it's not going to put my flgs out of business, because i'll still be buying all my other hobby needs from them at a discount.

 Kingsley wrote:
Also, this compendium is not required for all flyers-- it's merely an update to the pre-6th edition flyers found in some armies.

And how much do you want to bet they still HAVEN'T fixed "outflanking" for the Vendetta?! So now I'm forced to buy something that isn't even complete?!?!

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Also, this compendium is not required for all flyers-- it's merely an update to the pre-6th edition flyers found in some armies.

And how much do you want to be they still HAVEN't fixed "outflanking" for the Vendetta?! So now I'm forced to buy something that isn't even complete?!?!

They did, don't worry. IG FAQ update 1.2 removed scout and deep strike rules. (FINALLY!)

It'll be interesting to see what happens. Traditionally, game companies did not want to cut out the local retailer, because he was always their best source of advertising. Kids go there, see the fun games, "Daddy, can I have..." etc.

Of course, the internet has changed that model, but how much, for this type of hobby? Miniatures gaming is, by definition, a physical, hands-on hobby. Would you really play miniatures wargames via skype, if you had another choice?

Personally, I think the two store owners quoted in the OP have reacted appropriately. Why do I want to support the products of a manufacturer who just wants to do me in?

I own the flyer WD and the BA Raven rules. Im sure Ill find out real quick what the points/statsc changes are and pencil them in. End of story.

Twenty dollars for a faq. Hilarious GeeDub, hilarious.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Twenty dollars for a faq. Hilarious GeeDub, hilarious.

Try $42.... still hilarious though!

Wasn't going to buy it, still won't. Sounded like a waste of paper in the first place.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
This is a serious question:

How many people who play at shops own a copy of Apocalypse, Cities of Death, or Planetstrike?

Things like "Death from the Skies" strike me as more a "club purchase" at this point rather than an "individual purchase".

I own an ork army including an ork flyer, an ork codex and a copy of the rules.

Can I currently use my full ork army to play the game?

Yes or no.

How should I know?
I haven't played in quite awhile--which is precisely why I asked this question, MGS. It wasn't meant to be a distraction or diversion. I was genuinely curious.

Personally, I would not be opposed to buying the book myself and being willing to "loan it out" when playing games against people who did not have the rules.

The answer is no, I am not currently able to play my ork army, or in fact must play it reduced, despite owning the fething miniatures, annnd the codex, annnd the rulebook, I am not able to field them in my games because there is a new book I have to buy in order to play them.

Also, I can buy this safe in the knowledge that once the new 6th ed ork codex comes out, it will repeat these flyer rules and change the rest of the army so I already know that I have to buy that. So this ruleset is going to be rendered redundent in a few months to a year.

This has, in effect, added another 'compulsory' purchasing layer to my gaming. All this before we consider GW's second 'sweet deal' in this new release of limiting it's sale only to direct, so this 'compulsory' purchase is not available via my local gaming store. No wonder they don't want any part of this. I also suspect this is the first move in limiting the rules and expansions to direct only purchases.

It's just a further gakky move from the kings of spanker Mountain.

My FLGS hasn't ordered GW products hat ae flat out terrible for awhile now. The owner has passed on crusade of fire, hobbit, and I imagine this as well to no ill effect t his business

Ultimately, the OP display of defiance against the corporate giants of GW does absolutely nothing but possibly piss off some of the FLGS's customers.

What many FLGSs have to remember is their store is there because of the hobby, not the other way around. If your customer base primarily plays GW games, no amount of grumbling and grousing about GW's methods is going to switch them, and if you start being a douche about GW to the point of "banning" legit rule books, all you succeed in doing is driving your customer base away to your competition (or worse, creating new competition as one of those gamers decides to open his own FLGS, which has happened around my area a couple of times).

While making the book direct-sale only is kind of a dick move, ultimately, retailers are still going to benefit from it because it will increase the sale of those pricey flyer models. I know I'll be getting a stormraven as soon as the wallet can take the impact. Black Templar players will probably be clamoring for both flyers, as this should help their struggling armies compete in 6th edition.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Xzerios wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
If $35 is too much for you, surely you already knew this hobby was too expensive for you, because that's chump change compared to the startup cost of getting into the hobby.

You now have to factor this book into the startup costs with the way the rules work. Its not an 'optional' buy. Fliers are apart of sixth and even if your army doesnt have them, they will eventually. Until then, you will be playing against people whom do have them at times and youll be required to have the rules of those models; only through this book.

Since when do you have to have the rules for other people's models? Also, this compendium is not required for all flyers-- it's merely an update to the pre-6th edition flyers found in some armies.

Got the book to prove those assertions? I also request codexes when ever something questionable comes up as I have not memorized all the codexes or special rules within just yet. No codex/rules to show or just unwilling to show? Then it doesnt happen.

I understand why some people would be a bit upset that the FLGS would ban their new book that's now essential for their army. Though I think I'm a bit more sympathetic towards the local stores. I talked with the local owner of one on the subject and he didn't really have many positive things to say. But the thing is that the stores are feeling like GW is now trying to cut them out of the loop, and I agree with them. The shop owners are voicing their concern and acting in a way to show their protest.

What would you prefer them to do? Say they are upset and continue with the same old business routine? Many people will agree that GW needs to change their actions and the consumers really lack a lot of pull. Local stores on the other hand may be able to get a message through. I for one will fully support my local store no matter what side of the issue he takes, because I know he's a decent guy trying to run a business and have a fun store. I don't get that vibe from GW at all.

Okay, we all agree that it's a jerk move of GW to charge for something previously put through White Dwarf... but honestly, there -are- other ways to get copies, and if you had previous versions of the rules, you can look on your FAQ to see what's changed. The only ones who actively have to worry on this matter, from what I've seen from perusing the FAQs, is BT and SM do not have a point of reference for how much the ST and SR will cost them, hence they'd need the external aid.

Outside the point cost, the rules aren't seeming to actively change, meaning any copy (and I'm talking photocopy here) of the ST and/or SR rules should be adequate.

If someone had a reference, but not the book, I'd play them. Hell, the last tournie I went to had plenty of people without codexes but just reference sheets with the important information for the models they were using. I even saw one guy who just had a compiled list of photocopies of the relevant codex entries and a stat overview... something most armybuilding programs have (I know battlescribe does, and armybuilder used to).

Frankly, I'd be more perturbed at the Store for saying I'm not allowed to use flyer models that are now accessible to my codex, simply because they've decided to promote Warmachine.

Edit to Savage above: And yes, you're right, it does feel like GW is trying to cut out the middle man... or more specifically, cutting out the "store copy" and trying to force people to individually buy the book. I know that at my Local GW yesterday, when it was revealed to be direct only, the Manager could not get a verification if he was even getting copies, where just a few hours before it was assumed he would.

 BarBoBot wrote:
People will use any reason to hate on GW. Reminds me of the haters here in the US who demonize "profit" as though it's a sin.

I'm glad to pay the $35 to have the rules. I went to 3 different stores looking for the demons update and the ork flyer rules when they were released. 3 stores and all sold out and not able to get more....

Now rather than hauling around a printed PDF, I will have the official book.

If $35 is too much for you, surely you already knew this hobby was too expensive for you, because that's chump change compared to the startup cost of getting into the hobby.

I will pay gladly if they don't change the rules in 3 months and release another white dwarf update or compendium that we have to buy, OR they don't nerf( or change) what is in the compendium.

GW are just asking for people to rip their stuff off with online PDFs. You can't easily monopolise paper based publications or afford to be lazy about making them available (putting rules in a monthly magazine and then not bothering to make them available freely or otherwise afterwards for example), you have to make them accessible, entice the customer by making them more appealing than an online photocopy and build on customer goodwill and loyalty.

GW seem to be running short of customer goodwill recently and making their products more difficult to get hold of will not drive people into their shops and website to get 'exclusive', but essential, items. It will encourage a good number to go online and download it because it's so much easier and the hassle of acquiring legal copies and general disdain for GW won't even make them feel guilty for doing it.

Similarly the issue with finecast, it's a poor quality unreliable material and their prices are a joke. Even people who wouldn't previously touch a recast are considering doing so because you can get better for less expense from the counterfeiters.

Seems foolish to ban a product that could make a shop alot of money.

I understand being peeved about the "Direct Only" thing, but if I had a similiar circumstance in my shop, where a product was sold exclusively through the internet, I would stock the other products and accessories that compliment it. Especially if that product catered to a large part of my niche customer base (ie Space Marine players).

How many more flyer kits will be sold to Space Marine players because of this supplement? How many more Chapterhouse kits will be purchased? And for the retail professionals that know about the upsell... How many more paints, primer, glue, brushes?

 NELS1031 wrote:
Seems foolish to ban a product that could make a shop alot of money.

By not being able to sell it period... sure they could support it by selling the flyers and likely will do that but if there are rules in the book how can any FLGS actually support them for tournaments etc if they literally can't guarantee that they can provide them or that customers can even get a look at them? Considering the new FAQ is just an ad for the book I doubt there's anything in the book of major interest... well beyond new flyer entries maybe. Hard to browse the book over the internet so maybe there's nothing at all. As long as they let people use the old rules they had I don't see a big problem with the FAQ changes that weren't ads.

I could see supporting it is they were at least allowed to order it but if they can't even do that... yeah I'm not paying the shipping on a book with no units for any of my armies.

While it does seem rude to not allow FLGSs to carry it as a regular item, a FLGS cannot put its customers in the middle of a feud with a distributor.

Customers who are 'aware' or 'care' of the shittyness are already going to go out of their way to support you in other ways and would probably still support direct orders at a lowered rate. If you ordered it and sold it for more than MSRP, your supports would support you.

The problem is the customers who are not aware, and/or 'dont care'. And all this looks like is a temper tantrum which is going to make people want to leave your store and not return regardless how 'valid' the complaint is. Lots of consumers don't care if GW wont sell you a book for regular distributor discount. Hell, people still shop wal-mart regardless of human rights issues so they really don't care about you.

If a store wishes to stop stocking an item and change lanes on what they do, that's cool. The decision is to purge one customerbase for another. That makes business sense. But if you are still going to sell the product but then draw customers into a personal flamewar and degrade their experiece and tell someone who bought a WD and a dakkajet from your store they can't use it anymore because of something that doesn't involve them or they don't understand are not aware of is a bad model. You have decided to continue to sell a product to customers while pissing in their mouths and telling them it's raining.

If you can phase out warhammer and replace all your lost customers/income with other games, more power to you. That is going to be a different equation for each store owner to make, but I have seen 'temper tantrums' like this when someone is 'anti-product' but then is still attempting to sell it and is their large customer base, that is a recipe for going out of business.

It is gakky, but if your customers are already supporting your FLGS, I don't see this as being a reason to shake up your customer's experience to that degree of banning things people potentially purchased from you. Banning Forgeworld is infinitly more reasonable, and unless this place has banned scratch builts and forgeworld already due to inability to sell those, then this just smacks of poor business.

Is it just me, or would a classier approach to this would have been the store telling everybody not to bother buying it, because there will be a store copy available at all times, including tournaments, so nobody need buy their own?

 NELS1031 wrote:
How many more flyer kits will be sold to Space Marine players because of this supplement? How many more Chapterhouse kits will be purchased? And for the retail professionals that know about the upsell... How many more paints, primer, glue, brushes?

And if you have to go to GW to buy the book anyway, how many of those flyer kits and upsell items will be purcashed from GW instead of from the FLGS?

This book does nothing particularly fantastic for the FLGS, other than to force them to explain to customers that they can't sell them the rules for some of the kits that they have on the shelf.

GW have for decades now had a rule disallowing people from using stuff in-store that they (GW) don't sell... in some cases that has included Forgeworld, since, you know, people using Forgeworld kits that can't be bought in the store will just confuse and alienate customers. FLGS's banning the use of this book is ultimately no different to that.

Or to simply allow anyone with any legal copy of the rules to use them as a store house rule for both friendly and pickup games.

The thing is, since people are lazy...

If someone has to go to the effort of buying a book from GW, and any direct only characters, direct only finecast units and any direct only dice and templates, chances are, they're just going to end up buying everything from GW.

No doubt, just as planned.

Which does end up leaving FLGS' in the lurch, so they might as well find ways to manage the risk for the time being. So, start saying, "yeah, those GW rules, you don't need them here, you're fine mate." Starting to encourage sales of other companies. - "Did you know we stock the whole range of Battles of Compel?"

Admittedly, it's risky and I do think that the stores may suffer some short term pain cause of it. But it's either that or the long term goal of GW, which will likely amount to them only being willing to sell a FLGS a poster, emblazoned with the words.

"All these other games are just figments of your imagination. The only place to buy toys is at http://www.games-workshop.com"

I am agree it's a bit foolish to ban a legit product just because you can't sell it.

It seem to be an impulsive act more then a thoughtful gesture to ban something on my opinion. I have check the Gnome Games website and well... GW does'nt seem to be the kind of product that will close his store. It's a sword strike in the water... in a week no one will talk about it. Instead of just act like a too common "ragequit" why not just act more wisely and promote different kind of product. I like the idea of giving promotion to Warmachine, GW is not the only one after all ! It's never a good thing for a local store to base is profit only on GW, especially those years. After all, GW do what he want with his product. Never put all our eggs in the same basket! If GW want to sell his plastic at 100$ a miniature, we have the right to not buying it. There is so many alternative now, GW is just realizing it after all those years, bad for them... they miss the boat

Something bothered me about the original 'deal'...

"Trade in your current edition Warhammer 40K or Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and you take 40% off a starter box or rulebook for Warmachine or Hordes. We've done this with role-playing before, notably D&D and Pathfinder, so we know there are likely a bunch of rulebooks gathering dust and the need for excuses to start a new game. Let this be your excuse."

Can I say this is an insulting scam to valued customers? So for me trading in a current edition rulebook, I can get 20$ off a 50$ Starter? Wow, I give you a 50-75$ item and 30$ of my hard earned money for a 50$ product. What a value.

You mean a 40k rulebook which easily sells for 50$ hardback or 25$ paperback on eBay? So we really thing this store owner is going to take these items and burn them in an oil drum in an alley? Many Stores have internet sales and ebay stores or have 'people' who are related to the store who sells odd lots online already. This is not a DEAL for customers in any capacity as he is potentially able to functionally sell the warmachine boxed set for 75$ with this 'deal' when all is said and done.

If he was really looking out for his customers and wanted to promote change, he should offer the going ebay price of those books and say "I will do the legwork for you to sell them and give you the equivalent discount". This is not at all a deal to customers in the grand scheme of things... which makes this temper tantrum even more unreasonable as anyone who knows the value of items should have a similar reaction.

New vs second hand Nkelsch...

nkelsch wrote:
Can I say this is an insulting scam to valued customers? So for me trading in a current edition rulebook, I can get 20$ off a 50$ Starter set?

$20 for a second hand rulebook seems like a reasonable price to me... It's not much less than I would expect to get if I sold it on eBay, and you're never going to get as much for a trade-in (for any product) as it is actually worth, since the store still needs to make a profit when they sell it on.

I think they mean the $99 starter boxes too. as MGS says it's a 2nd hand item so really, it's not all that unreasonable...

Considering 'second hand' books which are less than a year old are often in 'like-new' condition, they are selling pretty well on ebay. It isn't like it is an out of date edition.

It doesn't seem at all like a deal to me.

nkelsch wrote:
Considering 'second hand' books which are less than a year old are often in 'like-new' condition, they are selling pretty well on ebay. It isn't like it is an out of date edition.

It doesn't seem at all like a deal to me.

Take some stuff to a pawnbroker some time and see how much you get for it compared to how much they charge for it.

Again, you'll never get as much for a trade-in as you will selling it yourself. That's just how the second-hand market works.

not as much as when you'd sell it yourself - but that's reasonable, the guy providing a convenient service selling it for you wants a chunk of the proceeds too. only reasonable