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 insaniak wrote:
And if you have to go to GW to buy the book anyway, how many of those flyer kits and upsell items will be purcashed from GW instead of from the FLGS?.

If someone is foolish enough to pay regular retail on the flyer kits and up sell items (Really? People still buy GW glue and brushes?) then they probably have no FLGS aside from a GW store and are unfathomably ignorant of discount websites. If those people actually exist, then FLGSs have more to worry about then a "direct only" book.

 Polonius wrote:
Is it just me, or would a classier approach to this would have been the store telling everybody not to bother buying it, because there will be a store copy available at all times, including tournaments, so nobody need buy their own?

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

 insaniak wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Considering 'second hand' books which are less than a year old are often in 'like-new' condition, they are selling pretty well on ebay. It isn't like it is an out of date edition.

It doesn't seem at all like a deal to me.

Take some stuff to a pawnbroker some time and see how much you get for it compared to how much they charge for it.

Again, you'll never get as much for a trade-in as you will selling it yourself. That's just how the second-hand market works.

oh, I know exactly how not doing the legwork yourself works... Every time an item changes hands to the final destination you should expect a 50% cut in cost. So if I sell to you, and you sell to the final owner. I should expect about 50% of what you plan to sell it for so you get your cut.

The issue is this store owner is not a pawn broker or an ebay auction place who is doing this for his primary business. This is a store owner trying to convert a customerbase to another system so he can stay in business as he has a customer-impacting feud with a distributor in an unprofessional way. If he was interested in helping convert customers, and is serious about basically 'destroying' his 40k customerbase, then I feel like he shouldn't be looking to profit off a trade-in program. I would say run it at cost or a loss so it was actually a discount. If he is selling hardback 40k rulebooks for 25$ and giving people 40% discounts of 50$ boxes, he is still profiting. If he was actually serious about converting, he should give people actual discounts out of his pocket in order to take responsibility of his feud with GW if he was serious about it.

I don't feel it is a deal at all. It doesn't add up and combined with the rest of the situation doesn't seem at all appealing to me.

It's never good when we customers are included into a Biz fight night, not because stores and GW shouldn't throw their jabs to defend their corners but because I opt to choose who and when to fight.

The same way I ignore GW attempts to control my Hobby choices I would also ignore this store for the same reason.

Personally I think it's a bad move for everyone involved and I wonder if calling a legal product contraband is not problematic.

 NELS1031 wrote:
If someone is foolish enough to pay regular retail on the flyer kits and up sell items (Really? People still buy GW glue and brushes?) then they probably have no FLGS aside from a GW store and are unfathomably ignorant of discount websites. If those people actually exist, then FLGSs have more to worry about then a "direct only" book.

If those people didn't exist, there wouldn't be any GW stores...

 insaniak wrote:

 NELS1031 wrote:
If someone is foolish enough to pay regular retail on the flyer kits and up sell items (Really? People still buy GW glue and brushes?) then they probably have no FLGS aside from a GW store and are unfathomably ignorant of discount websites. If those people actually exist, then FLGSs have more to worry about then a "direct only" book.

If those people didn't exist, there wouldn't be any GW stores...

Stores already have to deal with competing directly with the online discounters for customers.. they don't need to be undermined by the manufacturers as well.

It's hard not to put consumers in the middle ground, since we are the sales. The store owners are offering to help move players over to another game system, but are discouraged from working with GW. They aren't turning customers away at the door, while GW are turning customers actively from the door of the LGS to pull more traffic to their online store.

The stores involve us in the same way that if we boycott GW products, we'd be involving our FLGS. To send a message you have to impact sales, through boycott or switching games.

But I find it really odd that people are getting upset at the small game stores for trying to stand up, when we just had an excellent example earlier in the month of GW trying to crush the little guy (Woman in this particular instance). It's not an issue of them using us as a weapon, but merely the store owners trying to tell GW that they are not going to cater to them and they are establishing their own ground rules and encouraging people to trade in 40K for something else. I've never been to one, but doesn't the stores run by GW refuse third party models or something that's excessively converted?

 Marrak wrote:
Okay, we all agree that it's a jerk move of GW to charge for something previously put through White Dwarf... but honestly, there -are- other ways to get copies, and if you had previous versions of the rules, you can look on your FAQ to see what's changed. The only ones who actively have to worry on this matter, from what I've seen from perusing the FAQs, is BT and SM do not have a point of reference for how much the ST and SR will cost them, hence they'd need the external aid.

No, this is actually incorrect. I bought the White Dwarf with the Ork Flyers in it, because I liked the models. I bought three Ork Flyers, because I liked the models. I bought Crusade of Fire, because I thought Dogfights would be a fun 'side game' to run at conventions/tournaments (come over and pick out a plane and dogfight it out...).

Now, the FAQ tells me the rules for my flyers are in a new supplement. A supplement that repeats other material that I've already bought. There's nothing in my FAQ to tell me how they work at all, whatsoever.



It doesn't just totally irritate me that GW now wants me to go buy ANOTHER supplement. That's a MINOR irritation at this point. Here's what really chaps my @$$:

I'm a GW Fanboy. I'm HAPPY going out and buying some new rulebook with shiny new pictures and sparkly new rules. I will go out and buy stuff like "Crusade of Fire" for the novelty of it. Now GW is putting out stuff I need to buy to use their rules, but it isn't even new stuff. Let me buy new stuff from GW (not limited edition, sold out immediately rulebooks). Don't make me buy rehashed reprinted crap just to get a smidgen of new stuff.

I jumped through GW's marketing hoops. I bought the White Dwarf, sight unseen, because the new Ork Flyers looked cool. I bought the flyers (three at once), before even trying one out in game, because they looked cool. I bought Crusade of Fire, because it looked cool. Now GW want me to buy stuff that just rehashes stuff I already own, so that I have theiri permission to use their rules with the models I paid them for? GW is not punishing pirates or resellers; GW is actively punishing actual fans.

Steps like this make it much more likely that people will pirate GW's rules. Why pay GW for rules that they will change, and then charge you again to get? Why buy something from them if they invalidate it and make it necessary to buy it again? This isn't a system-wide reboot like a new edition, or even an army-wide reboot like a new Codex. GW wants you to buy something for three units in your army (in my case).

Steps like this make it much more likely that people will just start ignoring GW rules and playing with their own rulesets, or another company's ruleset, or an older edition of the rules. Seen what happened to D&D? You've got people playing 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, 4, etc. You've got people deciding that they don't need to spend any more money on a company's new products when they can still enjoy the old ones. And once people decide they don't need to buy new rules from GW, they will realize they don't need to buy new models from GW, either. If they aren't playing a GW-sanctioned game, they don't need to follow GW guidelines, and they can buy their orks wherever they want, and their vehicles wherever they want. That might be good for the players, and good for wargaming, but it's not going to be good for GW.

Dumb decisions like this make it much less likely that people will continue to support GW financially. Despite all the crap that they pull, there are a LOT of good people producing good stuff at GW. Those poor people aren't the tools making these dumb decisions. I LOVED the rules for the Ork planes (crashing into the target--awesome!). I LOVED the ork planes. Such great models, with so much character, and so many options and extras. I WANT to give the person who make that stuff money. I WANT that person to keep making stuff. But do I want to support them enough to support the spanker who pulled this stunt?

GW is actively hindering the player with their ruleset at this point. They should be making it easy to spend money on new models for your army. Instead, they keep throwing up barriers. Want to buy that Ork plane and play with it? Well, buy this magazine. Ooops. Sold out. Buy a iPad and buy this download. Oh, that's too expensive? Buy a $33 book full of stuff for other armies and reprinted from other books. If someone wants to buy and play with GW toys, GW should be finding a way to make that happen, not hampering it.

It's ridiculously old-school. While other game companies are actively selling PDF rulesets, GW is trying to make people jump through these hoops. If, as Jervis says in the latest White Dwarf, GW is fundamentally a collectible miniature company, why are they trying so hard to make money selling more rules? Look at Pathfinder for example. Every rule book is available in a PDF (even ones which have gone out of print physically). Those PDFs are updated regularly. It's a PDF, not some digital format proprietary to some particular company (heck, the PDF is even available in different formats if you are using different readers for it). It isn't burdened down with loads of DRM. The PDF has your name and email watermarked on it, so if you give it out, everybody knows who did it. Other than that? Put your PDF on whatever device you want to use it on. If the rulebook is part of their core rules (a nebulous concept, but still...), the PDF is TEN DOLLARS, regardless of the cost of the physical book. These are $50 rulebooks, but Paizo sells the PDF for $10! Why? To get people to PLAY THEIR GAME. They make their money ON books, and even they get this. Let people who want to play your damn game play your damn game. That's where the money is made.

I love so much of the GW universe, design, and game. I love people like Jes Godwin, John Blanche, and Phil Kelly. Despite his innumerable wrongheaded sermons, Jervis has made stuff I loved, and still love. I want these people to keep GW alive. I don't want $33 dollar supplemental rulebooks that invalidate the FAQ, cover only a few units from each army, aren't available except from GW direct, and rehash rules from another rulebook. I want GW to stop trying to put GW out of business.

I was at my LFGS today and the owner, although not going through his normal GW distributor, showed me that he could in fact order the book at $21 + S&H directly from GW's site. I don't know if that's because he has some discount or the likes, or what it means for other stores tbh :/

Sidenote: He tries very hard to get new people interested into the hobby, and has always been a stalwart defender of their product line for many years. For the first time today... I saw him NOT excited for a new GW release

I wanted to buy to book today but when I heard the book was only available online I was piss off even the GW store manager was piss off. But I got a good option. The pdf will be available someday and I will download it. I

Da Butcha wrote:

Spoiler:

 Marrak wrote:
Okay, we all agree that it's a jerk move of GW to charge for something previously put through White Dwarf... but honestly, there -are- other ways to get copies, and if you had previous versions of the rules, you can look on your FAQ to see what's changed. The only ones who actively have to worry on this matter, from what I've seen from perusing the FAQs, is BT and SM do not have a point of reference for how much the ST and SR will cost them, hence they'd need the external aid.

No, this is actually incorrect. I bought the White Dwarf with the Ork Flyers in it, because I liked the models. I bought three Ork Flyers, because I liked the models. I bought Crusade of Fire, because I thought Dogfights would be a fun 'side game' to run at conventions/tournaments (come over and pick out a plane and dogfight it out...).

Now, the FAQ tells me the rules for my flyers are in a new supplement. A supplement that repeats other material that I've already bought. There's nothing in my FAQ to tell me how they work at all, whatsoever.



It doesn't just totally irritate me that GW now wants me to go buy ANOTHER supplement. That's a MINOR irritation at this point. Here's what really chaps my @$$:

I'm a GW Fanboy. I'm HAPPY going out and buying some new rulebook with shiny new pictures and sparkly new rules. I will go out and buy stuff like "Crusade of Fire" for the novelty of it. Now GW is putting out stuff I need to buy to use their rules, but it isn't even new stuff. Let me buy new stuff from GW (not limited edition, sold out immediately rulebooks). Don't make me buy rehashed reprinted crap just to get a smidgen of new stuff.

I jumped through GW's marketing hoops. I bought the White Dwarf, sight unseen, because the new Ork Flyers looked cool. I bought the flyers (three at once), before even trying one out in game, because they looked cool. I bought Crusade of Fire, because it looked cool. Now GW want me to buy stuff that just rehashes stuff I already own, so that I have theiri permission to use their rules with the models I paid them for? GW is not punishing pirates or resellers; GW is actively punishing actual fans.

Steps like this make it much more likely that people will pirate GW's rules. Why pay GW for rules that they will change, and then charge you again to get? Why buy something from them if they invalidate it and make it necessary to buy it again? This isn't a system-wide reboot like a new edition, or even an army-wide reboot like a new Codex. GW wants you to buy something for three units in your army (in my case).

Steps like this make it much more likely that people will just start ignoring GW rules and playing with their own rulesets, or another company's ruleset, or an older edition of the rules. Seen what happened to D&D? You've got people playing 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, 4, etc. You've got people deciding that they don't need to spend any more money on a company's new products when they can still enjoy the old ones. And once people decide they don't need to buy new rules from GW, they will realize they don't need to buy new models from GW, either. If they aren't playing a GW-sanctioned game, they don't need to follow GW guidelines, and they can buy their orks wherever they want, and their vehicles wherever they want. That might be good for the players, and good for wargaming, but it's not going to be good for GW.

Dumb decisions like this make it much less likely that people will continue to support GW financially. Despite all the crap that they pull, there are a LOT of good people producing good stuff at GW. Those poor people aren't the tools making these dumb decisions. I LOVED the rules for the Ork planes (crashing into the target--awesome!). I LOVED the ork planes. Such great models, with so much character, and so many options and extras. I WANT to give the person who make that stuff money. I WANT that person to keep making stuff. But do I want to support them enough to support the spanker who pulled this stunt?

GW is actively hindering the player with their ruleset at this point. They should be making it easy to spend money on new models for your army. Instead, they keep throwing up barriers. Want to buy that Ork plane and play with it? Well, buy this magazine. Ooops. Sold out. Buy a iPad and buy this download. Oh, that's too expensive? Buy a $33 book full of stuff for other armies and reprinted from other books. If someone wants to buy and play with GW toys, GW should be finding a way to make that happen, not hampering it.

It's ridiculously old-school. While other game companies are actively selling PDF rulesets, GW is trying to make people jump through these hoops. If, as Jervis says in the latest White Dwarf, GW is fundamentally a collectible miniature company, why are they trying so hard to make money selling more rules? Look at Pathfinder for example. Every rule book is available in a PDF (even ones which have gone out of print physically). Those PDFs are updated regularly. It's a PDF, not some digital format proprietary to some particular company (heck, the PDF is even available in different formats if you are using different readers for it). It isn't burdened down with loads of DRM. The PDF has your name and email watermarked on it, so if you give it out, everybody knows who did it. Other than that? Put your PDF on whatever device you want to use it on. If the rulebook is part of their core rules (a nebulous concept, but still...), the PDF is TEN DOLLARS, regardless of the cost of the physical book. These are $50 rulebooks, but Paizo sells the PDF for $10! Why? To get people to PLAY THEIR GAME. They make their money ON books, and even they get this. Let people who want to play your damn game play your damn game. That's where the money is made.

I love so much of the GW universe, design, and game. I love people like Jes Godwin, John Blanche, and Phil Kelly. Despite his innumerable wrongheaded sermons, Jervis has made stuff I loved, and still love. I want these people to keep GW alive. I don't want $33 dollar supplemental rulebooks that invalidate the FAQ, cover only a few units from each army, aren't available except from GW direct, and rehash rules from another rulebook. I want GW to stop trying to put GW out of business

.

I agree 100%. I do complain loudly about GW policies, and always have, but I supported them up until they drove me all the way out the door.

 Necros wrote:
I haven't been following any of the drama lately.. why are they banning in the first place?

Just the facts:
-Collection of flier errata'd rules and updated rules only available in this book, not a must have unless you're orks, space marines or templar, the rest is FAQ released
-GW website only
-English only

Long story short it alienates a good portion of people and retailers, while forcing you to use GWs website without the possibility of discount.

hellpato wrote:
I wanted to buy to book today but when I heard the book was only available online I was piss off even the GW store manager was piss off. But I got a good option. The pdf will be available someday and I will download it. I

Um, every GW store has an Internet kiosk where they can order 'ship to store' and then their store gets the 'sale' for it. Also, GW stores are taking Pre-orders so they are perfectly able to pre-order them, today. They are even advertising it on Facebook pages as the local stores can have you order via store. .

If you make up impossible scenarios like buying a book 'today' which isn't released yet to justify piracy, no company will ever be able to justify a purchase since you will find impossible reasons to get thier product for free.

But indys can go themselves right?

Why is it direct only? Why couldnt this be shipped to stores?

 TheMostSlyFox wrote:

Sidenote: He tries very hard to get new people interested into the hobby, and has always been a stalwart defender of their product line for many years. For the first time today... I saw him NOT excited for a new GW release

Because he is looking at this new release and imagining what would happen to his store if this GW policy spreads to more GW products. I bet it's a scary scenario.

nkelsch wrote:

hellpato wrote:
I wanted to buy to book today but when I heard the book was only available online I was piss off even the GW store manager was piss off. But I got a good option. The pdf will be available someday and I will download it. I

Um, every GW store has an Internet kiosk where they can order 'ship to store' and then their store gets the 'sale' for it. Also, GW stores are taking Pre-orders so they are perfectly able to pre-order them, today. They are even advertising it on Facebook pages as the local stores can have you order via store. .

If you make up impossible scenarios like buying a book 'today' which isn't released yet to justify piracy, no company will ever be able to justify a purchase since you will find impossible reasons to get thier product for free.

Not all of us has a GW store.

Nevermind, derp'ed out of context.

 Grimtuff wrote:
From what I gather after timetowaste85 so graciously posted something that should have been in the OP (thankyou ) said book is not able to be purchased by independents and can olny be bought from the GW website and/or stores.

Surely this isn't the first time retailers have been unable to order something from GW? Why the outrage with this?

Plus it seems a little suspect that both the quoted retailers suddenly go "But Warmachine y'all!!! Buy that!!!".

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Good Lord, when Mikhaila from Showcase is telling you how crappy it's become, it means ITS. BECOME. CRAPPY.

But Kingsley is the Uber-Kan. He's drunk so much Kool-Aid that it has replaced his blood. His knight's armour is so white that it absorbs all other colours. It's no longer a case of "GW can do no wrong" in his eyes, it's a case of "GW is the only one who can do right".

Presumably because the other stuff, people haven't really cared about.

A bunch of finecast characters - "I don't wanna buy them anyway, I'll just have to return them."

Psychic power cards - "I can remember two names"

Mysterious objective dice - "I don't play with them anyway"

Vehicle Markers - "I can stick a dice on things without GW's help."

Crusade of Fire - "It looks rubbish anyways"

This is the first real example of something that could be seen as necessary (rightly or wrongly) for a great many players being made direct only. And it's probably only the beginning.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Things like "Death from the Skies" strike me as more a "club purchase" at this point rather than an "individual purchase".

That's irrelevant. Not everyone plays in clubs. Hell, I'd hazard that most people don't and that most people play with a group of friends. In any case, it's a core rules update only available from one location, required for play. Just because you want to attribute some made up title to it ("club purchase") doesn't change that.

Aren't direct order items still orderable by independent stores, just at not as good a discount?

 Compel wrote:
This is the first real example of something that could be seen as necessary (rightly or wrongly) for a great many players being made direct only. And it's probably only the beginning.

Fair enough then.

From what my local GW said it's apparently not going to be on their shelves either, it's a web only item no different than many of the metal miniatures that are currently webstore only. It's quite possible GW has no interest in printing and more importantly storing as many copies as they would need to in their warehouse for it to be on the shelves of independants and corporate stores alike and are keeping them all centralized through the warehouse to keep costs down.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Aren't direct order items still orderable by independent stores, just at not as good a discount?

People have seemed to post that in this thread, but honestly I don't trust any posters in regards to what FLGS can or can't do outside of Reecius and mikhaila.

It sounds like up until release they dicked them around with not confirming the products existed. I assume if something changes and they have access to this in any form, they will tell us. The screw job is if the FLGS do eventually get access, I assume there is a large retail 'rush' of purchasing when a product is immediately released so the market will be drained by time they can potentially enter it.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Aren't direct order items still orderable by independent stores, just at not as good a discount?

Not when the GW sales reps tell those independent stores that the product they are asking about doesn't exist, I would think.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Compel wrote:
This is the first real example of something that could be seen as necessary (rightly or wrongly) for a great many players being made direct only. And it's probably only the beginning.

Fair enough then.

Yes, what he said, HBMC. I actually do need the rules in that book to field part of my ork army (the flying bit... apparently fliers are quite important in 6th...). So this significantly differs from the planetstrikes and other add-ons, that's what the store managers were saying in the protesting messages, this is an intrinsic rule that I now have to pay extra for.

It was a grabbing and mean spirited action by GW. It will be met in kind by me...

nkelsch wrote:
Something bothered me about the original 'deal'...

"Trade in your current edition Warhammer 40K or Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and you take 40% off a starter box or rulebook for Warmachine or Hordes. We've done this with role-playing before, notably D&D and Pathfinder, so we know there are likely a bunch of rulebooks gathering dust and the need for excuses to start a new game. Let this be your excuse."

Can I say this is an insulting scam to valued customers? So for me trading in a current edition rulebook, I can get 20$ off a 50$ Starter? Wow, I give you a 50-75$ item and 30$ of my hard earned money for a 50$ product. What a value.

You mean a 40k rulebook which easily sells for 50$ hardback or 25$ paperback on eBay? So we really thing this store owner is going to take these items and burn them in an oil drum in an alley? Many Stores have internet sales and ebay stores or have 'people' who are related to the store who sells odd lots online already. This is not a DEAL for customers in any capacity as he is potentially able to functionally sell the warmachine boxed set for 75$ with this 'deal' when all is said and done.

If he was really looking out for his customers and wanted to promote change, he should offer the going ebay price of those books and say "I will do the legwork for you to sell them and give you the equivalent discount". This is not at all a deal to customers in the grand scheme of things... which makes this temper tantrum even more unreasonable as anyone who knows the value of items should have a similar reaction.

I go to this store, It is vehemently Pro-PP and Anti-Gw. They regularly let PP games played on nights of other games, but wont allow 40k played on anything other then our days or other games. This store doesn't care about you if you don't play a game one of their employees plays.

 warboss wrote:

 tvih wrote:
Fact of the matter is, at the end of the day there's no "direct only." At least it seems so in Europe. Because our FLGS is able to order "direct only" products from GW just fine, at the regular dealer discount. It does require keeping a larger stock than usual perhaps (terms of the agreement and whatnot), but it most certainly can be done.

In the US, Mikhalia here on dakka owns two stores I believe and has posted that "direct" only items come with a much smaller discount from GW to retailers resulting in less profit for the same work and with an uglier generic box for the minis.

That's what my store says as well. They have a standing policy that if I have to order anything because they don't have it in stock, I'll get a 10% discount. Unless it's GW Direct, because then they'd actually be losing money on the items.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:


I go to this store, It is vehemently Pro-PP and Anti-Gw. They regularly let PP games played on nights of other games, but wont allow 40k played on anything other then our days or other games. This store doesn't care about you if you don't play a game one of their employees plays.

Well if he can maintain his business at the expense of his GW-playing customers... more power to him. If I feel unwelcome or feel like the store is being rude to me, I am not going to stick around. A feud with GW distributor is not your customer's concern necessarily. It doesn't seem wise.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Aren't direct order items still orderable by independent stores, just at not as good a discount?

Sisters of Battle are direct only, right? As are tank accessory sprues? I ordered both recently via my (non-GW) LGS. I assume that this book can be ordered as well. I don't see what's the fuss about.