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 Crimson wrote:
Sisters of Battle are direct only, right? As are tank accessory sprues? I ordered both recently via my (non-GW) LGS. I assume that this book can be ordered as well. I don't see what's the fuss about.

You obviously missed this at the start of the thread:

 mikhaila wrote:
I find it less than thrilling. I had customers asking for the book this week. I spent a couple of hours on the phone with people at GW US, trying for anything. Don't care if I'm not getting it, just please tell me what to tell my customers. They all lied. Pretending they didn't know.

Mikhaila is a store owner. He couldn't get this book.

 Crimson wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Aren't direct order items still orderable by independent stores, just at not as good a discount?

Sisters of Battle are direct only, right? As are tank accessory sprues? I ordered both recently via my (non-GW) LGS. I assume that this book can be ordered as well. I don't see what's the fuss about.

The margin of profit is almost non-existant. Plus, the amount of time it takes for the LGS to get it will usually be longer because their suppliers won't have it in stock either. This isn't a niche item that only a few will want, it's something that most people (sans-Eldar/Tau players) will technically need now. So it's a large amount of money that the stores are going to be missing out on. The store has little insentive to try to stock the item because their profits will be negligible, and the customer will just get the item quicker ordering directly from GW anyways.

Doing it this way was a blatant FU from GW to the LGS in my opinion.

 insaniak wrote:

You obviously missed this at the start of the thread:

 mikhaila wrote:
I find it less than thrilling. I had customers asking for the book this week. I spent a couple of hours on the phone with people at GW US, trying for anything. Don't care if I'm not getting it, just please tell me what to tell my customers. They all lied. Pretending they didn't know.

Mikhaila is a store owner. He couldn't get this book.

Did he ask for it before it was officially available?

(And yes, I agree that this is annoying, but really nothing that would warrant the tactics described in OP.)

As an IG player, I'll skip it. I'm sure they'll find a different way to get the next pound of flesh later....

 Kingsley wrote:

If they're trying to help me, they're failing. They're trying to convince me to play a different system, which is not the role of a store. Unfortunately, I have no faith in a store that would sell out a system once. Who is to say they won't end up pulling the same trick against Warmahordes when they next put out a release that the community doesn't like? Fundamentally a store that is willing to sell out a system and stop supporting its customers once has lost its trust with me, and given the easy and appealing "20-30% discounted online store" option such stores will never have my business.

It's not a happy situation. There is no "up side" for retailers. There is little we can do in the face of Games Workshop shenanigans. Our customer bases have eroded, sales fallen as all but the hardcore players have jumped ship in the wake of insanely high prices, anemic releases, and a black out marketing strategy. At a certain point we have to just say NO. Does it make sense that we draw the line in the sand here? I think so. They've made a concerted effort to release a major rules update (or it's completely insignificant, you tell me) by bypassing retailers. I thought it was an empty gesture this morning, but clearly people feel this is a critical rules release, which makes the stand that much more important.

As for what will the dangerous retailer do next, what kind of power do you think we have? We can carry a game or not carry a game. We can run events or not run events. That's about it. We do this through the grace of our customers, who we acknowledge are doing us a favor by spending their hard earned money with us. Again, there is no up side to this, but Games Workshop continues to push us into a corner.

Honestly, at my store this issue effects about 12 people. However, the perception of hostile action is so strong that people hours away declare their intent to boycott. So I ask, is there anything that this company will do to make you lose your loyalty? Must you condemn others for taking a stand, even as you bend over, and close your eyes?

Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520

925-681-0600
www.blackdiamondgames.com
blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com

 Crimson wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

You obviously missed this at the start of the thread:

 mikhaila wrote:
I find it less than thrilling. I had customers asking for the book this week. I spent a couple of hours on the phone with people at GW US, trying for anything. Don't care if I'm not getting it, just please tell me what to tell my customers. They all lied. Pretending they didn't know.

Mikhaila is a store owner. He couldn't get this book.

Did he ask for it before it was officially available?

(And yes, I agree that this is annoying, but really nothing that would warrant the tactics described in OP.)

Unless I misunderstood it, they were told nothing until it was released.

 Crimson wrote:
Did he ask for it before it was officially available?

Given that he says he was asking about it this week, I would assume he was, yes. Ordering something before the release date so that you have it for the release date is how things generally work in the retail industry.

(And yes, I agree that this is annoying, but really nothing that would warrant the tactics described in OP.)

One of my major suppliers lying to me about new releases, and as a result potentially damaging my relationship with my customers if I take those lies at face value and thus wind up giving them incorrect information is certainly something that I would see as every reason to cut ties with that supplier and move on to someone who still believes in customer service, frankly.

There are essentially three Games Workshop product categories (these are my category names):

General. Stuff that retailers can order, with a subset required depending on your agreement. This stuff gets a discount of around 45%.

Direct. These are things we can order for customers, or if there's demand, we can stock them ourselves. It might include what's left of their metal minis or special bases. The discount is 35%, so you don't generally want to stock these.

Direct Customer Only. These items are direct, but retailers are not solicited and the items are not available at a discount. There is not a lot of this stuff, but they're increasing. To put a rulebook in this category is unconscionable.

So: We're solicited and encouraged to order new General stuff. We're solicited and encouraged not to order Direct stuff. We're not told anything about the Direct Customer Only.

Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520

925-681-0600
www.blackdiamondgames.com
blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com

Thanks for clearing that up. I don't think most people (including myself) were aware of the two different direct categories which led to some confusion in the thread.

I think starting the process of transitioning away from GW after they release a rulebook Direct Customer Only is probably a good idea.

They want you to sell the plastic kits, but not the rules for those kits, so that everyone who buys one will then become not your customer, but a customer of the GW Online store. It's direct competition with you, who is supposed to be their partner.

Diversifying away from GW after such a stunt is probably pretty smart.

 blackdiamond wrote:

So: We're solicited and encouraged to order new General stuff. We're solicited and encouraged not to order Direct stuff. We're not told anything about the Direct Customer Only.

So can you confirm this book is the second or third type?

I can see why stores who have chosen to give 20% discount are freaking out, but that sounds like store decision. I have never minded paying full MSRP to FLGSs and don't really expect discounts from people who provide me rent-free gaming space or run good events.

They are changing strategy and it looks like they intend to use or abuse Indy stores in this new direction as gateway/introduction sources only and then control the further purchasing and reap the profit directly.

Whilst it's probably not a good idea to ditch their stock entirely, indy stores should be looking to cushion any further potential stilettos to the back with promotion of and increased emphasis on friendlier and more flexible lines with less inclination to trip them down the stairs and take their cash.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
From what I gather after timetowaste85 so graciously posted something that should have been in the OP (thankyou ) said book is not able to be purchased by independents and can olny be bought from the GW website and/or stores.

Surely this isn't the first time retailers have been unable to order something from GW? Why the outrage with this?

Plus it seems a little suspect that both the quoted retailers suddenly go "But Warmachine y'all!!! Buy that!!!".

I collect Data from various areas within the US (mostly where I have my holdings). I can give you some some generalized information concerning the health of the hobby (GW in particular) around Black Diamond Games. It is one of my Data hubs that I use. I do the data collection because I really want to know what sells at the retail level (and yes I do tend to talk to distributors as well) in their own words. if I ever want to use some of my IP's once again and make a game or two I need that kind of information to make a product (or product line) a viable one. And if the data collected tells me otherwise well I'll just buy more property and continue to play in those friendly areas that support my hobbies with my plastic man dolls. The idea has come to my head about investing/buying into a small game company, but we shall see as I am getting to damned old to start another business venture

Black Diamond Games

The game store is well ran. Very clean and is well stocked with different venues of games. The employees working at BD are friendly, knowledgeable in what they sell in their store. They cater to a wide spectrum of customers. They know what sells currently and are able to keep a view on what is trendy and loyal customer satisfaction. I enjoy having my conversations at that store talking to the customers, employees, and owner respectively.

At one time the GW influence in that area was strong with 5 GW stores within a 40 mile radius, however from the data I have collected in that region that customer base was in the serious decline starting at 2010. This also coincide with the rapid price increases, revenue streamlining processes that have been posted here on this site previously. When GW of Alamo (a site where the average median household is $174000 per year and the average home in that store area goes for 1 mil, there is plenty of money to buy man toys) closed in 2012, that was a telling indicator on just how much of a decline there is in that area and IMHO GW as a whole. Oversaturation of product? Probably, but again from data collected, the other major indicator is GW PR (the lack there of) as well as the disinformation/lack of information they are well known to give.

Nature Abhors a vacuum, and something has got to give so WM/H has taken 40K's place.

If they would have treated Indie stores better and actually supported them there would be no discussion on this topic.

@Black Diamond Games

It took me so long to type up my posting (arthritic hands) that I did not even noticed that you are in here. Good to see you here at this site.

nkelsch wrote:

 blackdiamond wrote:

So: We're solicited and encouraged to order new General stuff. We're solicited and encouraged not to order Direct stuff. We're not told anything about the Direct Customer Only.

So can you confirm this book is the second or third type?

I can see why stores who have chosen to give 20% discount are freaking out, but that sounds like store decision. I have never minded paying full MSRP to FLGSs and don't really expect discounts from people who provide me rent-free gaming space or run good events.

We were not solicited for this book, and like Showcase, we learned about it from customers without any information presented to us by Games Workshop. This is no accident, this book is not available to us.

Here's generally how our store is likely to disengage: GW events in store get canceled or curtailed (this certainly drove those people away from us). This means we no longer need GW prize support. That means we no longer need to put up with the indignities (LOTR, crappy fantasy sales) of being a partner store to get that support. Once we're not a partner store, it means we likely cut back our inventory to a core level of 40K stuff. At that point, we'll be eying the wall for Privateer Press expansion. I avoided GW the first two years I owned a store because they were jackasses, then they reformed. Now they're jackasses again.

Really though, nobody wants to do this. What we would like to see is Games Workshop get their act together and start supporting us and their game. They have this ridiculous cycle they have to go through in which they squeeze everyone to maximize shareholder value, and then as that value begins to slip, they lessen the grasp and start to address problems. Where did I learn this? My GW rep. This Jekyll and Hyde act has been going on for a decades and they should really knock it off.

 blackdiamond wrote:


Really though, nobody wants to do this. What we would like to see is Games Workshop get their act together and start supporting us and their game.

So would much of the gaming community, I'd wager.

 blackdiamond wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 blackdiamond wrote:

So: We're solicited and encouraged to order new General stuff. We're solicited and encouraged not to order Direct stuff. We're not told anything about the Direct Customer Only.

So can you confirm this book is the second or third type?

I can see why stores who have chosen to give 20% discount are freaking out, but that sounds like store decision. I have never minded paying full MSRP to FLGSs and don't really expect discounts from people who provide me rent-free gaming space or run good events.

We were not solicited for this book, and like Showcase, we learned about it from customers without any information presented to us by Games Workshop. This is no accident, this book is not available to us.

Here's generally how our store is likely to disengage: GW events in store get canceled or curtailed (this certainly drove those people away from us). This means we no longer need GW prize support. That means we no longer need to put up with the indignities (LOTR, crappy fantasy sales) of being a partner store to get that support. Once we're not a partner store, it means we likely cut back our inventory to a core level of 40K stuff. At that point, we'll be eying the wall for Privateer Press expansion. I avoided GW the first two years I owned a store because they were jackasses, then they reformed. Now they're jackasses again.

Really though, nobody wants to do this. What we would like to see is Games Workshop get their act together and start supporting us and their game. They have this ridiculous cycle they have to go through in which they squeeze everyone to maximize shareholder value, and then as that value begins to slip, they lessen the grasp and start to address problems. Where did I learn this? My GW rep. This Jekyll and Hyde act has been going on for a decades and they should really knock it off.

FWIW (very little I imagine) I completely support your position. Retailers are the real front lines of the hobby, and if they supported you guys more there would be more reason to play.

Wait. When I read the 1st post I understood it as that these stores were banning the rules from use in their tournaments. This sounds reasonable to me. Since they can not sell the book in their store, in theory it's not easily available to the wider gaming community. Thus putting it in the same category as forge world models. It's not that most forgeworld models are over powered, it's that their rules are not as easily available to the gaming community. Thus can be unfair to use them in a tournament setting.

But are they also banning it's use from pick-up play? Because IMHO going that far would be huge turn off to me.

 Lockark wrote:
Wait. When I read the 1st post I understood it as that these stores were banning the rules from use in their tournaments, but are they also banning it's use from pick-up play?

That's up to individual stores. I know Pat considers the book contraband and doesn't wand to see it in his store.

I'm just saying not for organized play, which means open gaming is fine. Heck, you can play little green army men during our open gaming, if you want.

Also, easy solution to this? Move this book into another order category, even a direct sales item makes it available to stores, albeit it at a poor discount. I would lift my ban if they would throw us a bone.

Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520

925-681-0600
www.blackdiamondgames.com
blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com

 blackdiamond wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
Wait. When I read the 1st post I understood it as that these stores were banning the rules from use in their tournaments, but are they also banning it's use from pick-up play?

That's up to individual stores. I know Pat considers the book contraband and doesn't wand to see it in his store.

I'm just saying not for organized play, which means open gaming is fine. Heck, you can play little green army men during our open gaming, if you want.

Also, easy solution to this? Move this book into another order category, even a direct sales item makes it available to stores, albeit it at a poor discount. I would lift my ban if they would throw us a bone.

But it's still the community that gets hurt. I understand your point-of-view: if you have nothing to sell (because you can't), then there won't be a storefront for people to play in anyway. It's a shame that the guy that wants to play his Black Templars again can't in those stores, however, because the rules for his models are banned. He's not going to blame GW. He's going to blame the storefront.

I would think that a better solution would be to have a Store Copy. That gives GW the finger and still allows everyone to play their army.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
Black Diamond Games

The game store is well ran. Very clean and is well stocked with different venues of games. The employees working at BD are friendly, knowledgeable in what they sell in their store. They cater to a wide spectrum of customers. They know what sells currently and are able to keep a view on what is trendy and loyal customer satisfaction. I enjoy having my conversations at that store talking to the customers, employees, and owner respectively.

This was the store I frequented before I moved for work and I have to agree with this. Great store.

I actually used to run the 40k events there, and they were fully supportive.

 blackdiamond wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
Wait. When I read the 1st post I understood it as that these stores were banning the rules from use in their tournaments, but are they also banning it's use from pick-up play?

That's up to individual stores. I know Pat considers the book contraband and doesn't wand to see it in his store.

I'm just saying not for organized play, which means open gaming is fine. Heck, you can play little green army men during our open gaming, if you want.

Also, easy solution to this? Move this book into another order category, even a direct sales item makes it available to stores, albeit it at a poor discount. I would lift my ban if they would throw us a bone.

Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520

925-681-0600
www.blackdiamondgames.com
blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com

I just updated my post to explain my view of this abit more clear.

IMHO due to these rules being direct only I consider them on par with a forgeworld expansion. Thus reasonable to say they are not for use in Tournament play. Any larger tournament that does not allow forgeworld rules IMHO should also ban these rules from use in their tournaments.

But I feel banning the book from the store completely is a pretty big turn off. People should still be allowed to use it in friendly pick up games if they wish as you would a forgeworld book.

Wow, I wish the LGS I go to would offer Warmachine credit for my old 40k stuff. I just started a Cygnar army and Id love to build it up even more.

See if they'll ship?

 blackdiamond wrote:


I'm just saying not for organized play, which means open gaming is fine. Heck, you can play little green army men during our open gaming, if you want.

Also, easy solution to this? Move this book into another order category, even a direct sales item makes it available to stores, albeit it at a poor discount. I would lift my ban if they would throw us a bone.

But you are making your customers hostages with your actions which seems rude and would turn off customers.

Do you ban Forgeworld? Do you ban Scratchbuilts? Do you ban 3rd party models you don't stock? Do you ban games or figures only available online or Kickstarters? Have you removed all FLYER inventory from your shelves? Do you ban digital codexes in store because you cannot sell them? What do you do for games who don't allow you to SELL rules because of free or e-distribution and only sell minis?

It just seems like a bad idea to continue to sell the models or having sold the models for months and then punish your customers to try to prove a point. Promote other games, stop stocking GW, but this 'ban' is unprofessional and a turn off for customers. Maybe it will work for you and your customerbase... I feel like there are better ways for you to handle this. If a Store near me said 'No Units from Death from the skies' it basically comes across to me as 'LOL BAN FLYERS ME MAD GEEDUHB!' and I am going to choose to attend a tourney at another location. I can respect a store divesting themselves of GW games and continue to shop there for other systems as long as they promote organized play for those systems. If you drag me into drama as a customer or disrespect me as a customer and degrade the 'organized play' I pay MSRP for , then me and my money go elsewhere.

But your customers may have different attitudes, being an east coast person, I don't think I have to worry about not attending your 'organized play' but it sounds like a major turn off to me.

Edit: And if this was a NEW expansion, I could totally get behind the FW optional route, which I fell is TOTALLY reasonable for not allowing rules and models not sold in store. But you can't put the genie back in the bottle on this one. People HAVE bought the models at your store. they HAVE bought the WD at your store. They HAVE been using these models and rules for months at your store. To take it away now is not the same as choosing not to EXPAND to an expansion, especially when people bought the models locally in your store. (and still can)

 Lalochezia wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
Black Diamond Games

The game store is well ran. Very clean and is well stocked with different venues of games. The employees working at BD are friendly, knowledgeable in what they sell in their store. They cater to a wide spectrum of customers. They know what sells currently and are able to keep a view on what is trendy and loyal customer satisfaction. I enjoy having my conversations at that store talking to the customers, employees, and owner respectively.

This was the store I frequented before I moved for work and I have to agree with this. Great store.

I actually used to run the 40k events there, and they were fully supportive.

Thank you. Definitely not the nearest store for me to go to as well, but It is so nice when people, the players, the employees take their time in helping out an old man like myself to learn a new game. But you know I also go there for their puzzles and puzzle type games as that is what my sweety likes to do. They also got my sweety interested in trying her hand in other types of board games. Again a top notch place if you are in that area.

nkelsch wrote:

Do you ban Forgeworld? Do you ban Scratchbuilts? Do you ban 3rd party models you don't stock? Do you ban games or figures only available online or Kickstarters? Have you removed all FLYER inventory from your shelves? Do you ban digital codexes in store because you cannot sell them? What do you do for games who don't allow you to SELL rules because of free or e-distribution and only sell minis?

As far as I can tell, none of that criteria fits into this scenario.

"But you are making your customers hostages with your actions which seems rude and would turn off customers."

I can certainly see that now.

This is something that seemed like a minor thing, like banning a Forge World book. Now it seems to have a significance that wasn't fully understood (mostly because GW kept it a secret from us). The last thing I would want is to offend our customers, which it seems I've done tremendously well today. It would have been better to have simply dropped all 40K events or made an inventory decision, not that I plan to do those things yet. That's a more traditional retail way of solving problems with suppliers. I would certainly like to walk this one back, but I also see it as a direct attack from Games Workshop that can't be ignored.

Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520

925-681-0600
www.blackdiamondgames.com
blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com

nkelsch wrote:

 blackdiamond wrote:


I'm just saying not for organized play, which means open gaming is fine. Heck, you can play little green army men during our open gaming, if you want.

Also, easy solution to this? Move this book into another order category, even a direct sales item makes it available to stores, albeit it at a poor discount. I would lift my ban if they would throw us a bone.

But you are making your customers hostages with your actions which seems rude and would turn off customers.

No, he's taking a stand against an unscrupulous supplier. The rest of your post doesn't apply, hobbyists with scratchbuilt or forgeworld models have not denied him a sale with those, they also remain 'the customer', his action is against 'the supplier'.

And it's his business, he's entirely free to ban the book in his store, as said earlier, due to GW shafting him and other retailers over it. They have denied the retailer the ability to sell the complete game, that's just crazy.

Also, GW themselves have banned forgeworld in some stores, also scratchbuilds. He's been patient and accommodating enough not to. Speaks volumes to me.

I can see the point of stores banning certain things from tournaments and so on but if I bring something that is an official product for a game I play and someone tells me I can't bring it in then I would part ways with that store/club.

Yes GW has an absolute terrible buisness model that only thinks in short term gain. I agree with that.

On the other hand if this is the start of stores/clubs parting ways with GW then for me personally that gives me no reason to spend money with them anymore, which forces me to go directly to GW which is what they want anyway, and when it gets to the point I refuse to spend money anymore I won't go back to one of those stores, ill just find a new hobby.

 djones520 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Do you ban Forgeworld? Do you ban Scratchbuilts? Do you ban 3rd party models you don't stock? Do you ban games or figures only available online or Kickstarters? Have you removed all FLYER inventory from your shelves? Do you ban digital codexes in store because you cannot sell them? What do you do for games who don't allow you to SELL rules because of free or e-distribution and only sell minis?

As far as I can tell, none of that criteria fits into this scenario.

If the core issue is allowing a ruleset the store is incapable of stocking, it is relevant. I totally understand not wanting your gaming store monopolized by non-customers using products you can't sell, but this is not as black and white as that, especially since they can still sell the actual models, and already have sold them to customers who may have the expectation of using them in store.

*He cannot stock FWs so every FW use is the result of a non sale and can't promote or drive a sale.
*scratchbuilds are another non-sale, but owners often allow them to garner good will, as long as the person is a customer in other ways.
*again, there are a ton of Internet 3rd party companies which many FLGS don't stock and sometimes can't stock, so if someone is playing with an entire army of 3rd party models, bought off the Internet, those are non sales.
*ditto with people showing up and wanting to play a game bought via KS and not locally.
*if the store still sells flyer models, if he turns around and tells them they cannot use the model just purchased in store because of a dispute with GW which the customer has no awareness of, you are going to have an annoyed customer.
*digital downloads are also a lost sale for the FLGS, so will people who don't have an instore purchased book also not allowed to use it?

If inability to stock or sell the rules is the reason for the ban. There is a lot of other things which are often allowed in stores which also need to be banned. And such bans would alienate customers which is why stores allow wiggle room as long as people are still mostly customers locally. If you want to basically declare war on your customers to get back at GW, you are not hurting GW.

Also, 40k is an unplayable joke for tourneys if you denied specific armies their flyers. Such a ban is basically telling people to go home and not come back as a tourney without those units is a waste of time for all involved. There are better solutions which are less rude to customers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


Also, GW themselves have banned forgeworld in some stores, also scratchbuilds. He's been patient and accommodating enough not to. Speaks volumes to me.

and such policies have alienated potential customers because of it. gW does it isn't a screaming endorsement.

There is a difference between losing a customer because you don't stock an item and losing a customer because you do something to cause harm to them or they feel treated poorly.

There is nothing wrong with phasing out a product because the company sucks and it is bad for your business to sell. The goal is to phase out the product while retaining as many of the customers as possible. You of course will lose some customers who are only interested in one product but most gamers have multiple interests. Losing one game system or product won't alienate them. Making a political stand which annoys or harms the customers experience on one system may cause them to leave for all your products out of their own "stand".