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nkelsch wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Do you ban Forgeworld? Do you ban Scratchbuilts? Do you ban 3rd party models you don't stock? Do you ban games or figures only available online or Kickstarters? Have you removed all FLYER inventory from your shelves? Do you ban digital codexes in store because you cannot sell them? What do you do for games who don't allow you to SELL rules because of free or e-distribution and only sell minis?

As far as I can tell, none of that criteria fits into this scenario.

If the core issue is allowing a ruleset the store is incapable of stocking, it is relevant. I totally understand not wanting your gaming store monopolized by non-customers using products you can't sell, but this is not as black and white as that, especially since they can still sell the actual models, and already have sold them to customers who may have the expectation of using them in store.

*He cannot stock FWs so every FW use is the result of a non sale and can't promote or drive a sale.
*scratchbuilds are another non-sale, but owners often allow them to garner good will, as long as the person is a customer in other ways.
*again, there are a ton of Internet 3rd party companies which many FLGS don't stock and sometimes can't stock, so if someone is playing with an entire army of 3rd party models, bought off the Internet, those are non sales.
*ditto with people showing up and wanting to play a game bought via KS and not locally.
*if the store still sells flyer models, if he turns around and tells them they cannot use the model just purchased in store because of a dispute with GW which the customer has no awareness of, you are going to have an annoyed customer.
*digital downloads are also a lost sale for the FLGS, so will people who don't have an instore purchased book also not allowed to use it?

If inability to stock or sell the rules is the reason for the ban. There is a lot of other things which are often allowed in stores which also need to be banned. And such bans would alienate customers which is why stores allow wiggle room as long as people are still mostly customers locally. If you want to basically declare war on your customers to get back at GW, you are not hurting GW.

Also, 40k is an unplayable joke for tourneys if you denied specific armies their flyers. Such a ban is basically telling people to go home and not come back as a tourney without those units is a waste of time for all involved. There are better solutions which are less rude to customers.

Your argument would hold water if these retailers had thrown a fit about direct only expansions, planetstrike, cities of death etc, this was not the case. The protest is in light of a book which contains necessary rules and is being withheld from sale, that's the problem. It's shifting the agreement entered into by the retailer and GW, it's denying a cog necessary for the machine to work, not denying a peripheral add on.

Just my 2 cents but I think the stores are doing exactly what they ought to do...protecting their own interests. From what i've heard GW is a nightmafe to deal with from a retailers perspective.

This is a major supplement and GW is doing their best to cut FLGS out of the profit stream. You don't make your partners happy by cutting them out of the profit.

ender502

 ender502 wrote:
Just my 2 cents but I think the stores are doing exactly what they ought to do...protecting their own interests. From what i've heard GW is a nightmafe to deal with from a retailers perspective.

This is a major supplement and GW is doing their best to cut FLGS out of the profit stream. You don't make your partners happy by cutting them out of the profit.

ender502

It's true. I've done a lot of rationalizing GW's insanity as them protecting themselves and staying in business, and it is only fair that retailers should be able to push back. Competition will lead to the best result for customers IMO.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Do you ban Forgeworld? Do you ban Scratchbuilts? Do you ban 3rd party models you don't stock? Do you ban games or figures only available online or Kickstarters? Have you removed all FLYER inventory from your shelves? Do you ban digital codexes in store because you cannot sell them? What do you do for games who don't allow you to SELL rules because of free or e-distribution and only sell minis?

As far as I can tell, none of that criteria fits into this scenario.

If the core issue is allowing a ruleset the store is incapable of stocking, it is relevant. I totally understand not wanting your gaming store monopolized by non-customers using products you can't sell, but this is not as black and white as that, especially since they can still sell the actual models, and already have sold them to customers who may have the expectation of using them in store.

*He cannot stock FWs so every FW use is the result of a non sale and can't promote or drive a sale.
*scratchbuilds are another non-sale, but owners often allow them to garner good will, as long as the person is a customer in other ways.
*again, there are a ton of Internet 3rd party companies which many FLGS don't stock and sometimes can't stock, so if someone is playing with an entire army of 3rd party models, bought off the Internet, those are non sales.
*ditto with people showing up and wanting to play a game bought via KS and not locally.
*if the store still sells flyer models, if he turns around and tells them they cannot use the model just purchased in store because of a dispute with GW which the customer has no awareness of, you are going to have an annoyed customer.
*digital downloads are also a lost sale for the FLGS, so will people who don't have an instore purchased book also not allowed to use it?

If inability to stock or sell the rules is the reason for the ban. There is a lot of other things which are often allowed in stores which also need to be banned. And such bans would alienate customers which is why stores allow wiggle room as long as people are still mostly customers locally. If you want to basically declare war on your customers to get back at GW, you are not hurting GW.

Also, 40k is an unplayable joke for tourneys if you denied specific armies their flyers. Such a ban is basically telling people to go home and not come back as a tourney without those units is a waste of time for all involved. There are better solutions which are less rude to customers.

Your argument would hold water if these retailers had thrown a fit about direct only expansions, planetstrike, cities of death etc, this was not the case. The protest is in light of a book which contains necessary rules and is being withheld from sale, that's the problem. It's shifting the agreement entered into by the retailer and GW, it's denying a cog necessary for the machine to work, not denying a peripheral add on.

.

The problem is they are protesting GW by shooting their customers, most of which will not be aware of the 'issue' at hand or simply won't care.

It is effectively a "hunger strike" which is not usually productive in a retail business.

But it is their store,if they think standing up for their principals will increase sales and convert people to other games with no backlash... Go for it. It really does come down to $ in the end.

 alarmingrick wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

hellpato wrote:
I wanted to buy to book today but when I heard the book was only available online I was piss off even the GW store manager was piss off. But I got a good option. The pdf will be available someday and I will download it. I

Um, every GW store has an Internet kiosk where they can order 'ship to store' and then their store gets the 'sale' for it. Also, GW stores are taking Pre-orders so they are perfectly able to pre-order them, today. They are even advertising it on Facebook pages as the local stores can have you order via store. .

If you make up impossible scenarios like buying a book 'today' which isn't released yet to justify piracy, no company will ever be able to justify a purchase since you will find impossible reasons to get thier product for free.

Not all of us has a GW store.

I really don't care about piracy or not. I'm a consumer and now, before buying, I want to know what I buy. I look the GW website for the book and they show no preview pages, no table of content just a brief description of what is inside the book. In a store, you can open a book and what is inside and I can see if is good enough to buy it or not. Is why I like the pdf. I can read the book and if it's good, I buy it because I hate to read on a computer screen or Ipad. If the book is not good, I will not lose money for a product I will not use. That my POV of that situation.

IMO, Death from the Skies is just for players who really need the update rules for tournament or for those played only with flyers. Everybody else will forget that book next week and wait until the codexes will all been updated to use there flyers.

Wow. Just wow. Interesting response to more mail-order only things.

And as a point of interest, can't independents order mail order at a lesser discount? Pretty sure my FLGS has ordered me things that are mail order only before (Was Crusade of Fire mail order only? I know the LE Rulebook was Mail Order only. I got that through my FLGS.)

Not that GW isn't being a bit of a pain in the ass with all the limited and mail order only, but I think this may be overreacting.

Pretre, that was covered a couple of pages back. Not all direct items can be special ordered.

There is always the option of buying off the web page an marking them up a litte. Convenience is worth something and not everyone wants to go to their site to buy stuff.

 insaniak wrote:
Pretre, that was covered a couple of pages back. Not all direct items can be special ordered.

My bad, I read the first page and the last. I suppose I'll have to order it from GW then.

Hi

As an FLGS gamer and customer, this decision ticks me off because it undermines the profitability of my FLGS.

I have already contacted GW customer service via e-mail expressing my ire over this decision. I intend to call on Tuesday as well.

If you are an FLGS supporter, throwing in your two cents on this unsatisfactory arrangement is worth doing. If you care, but remain silent, don't bitch when it continues.

Cheers,
Nate

Lets face facts GW is out to make money either way.

captain bloody fists wrote:
Lets face facts GW is out to make money either way.

The sun rises tomorrow as well.

Its unfortunate that I dont have a black diamond lgs near me or I would go in and spend money on some PP to show my support.

I also like the idea of buying a couple for store copies that way everyone can use the rules and give GW the finger at the same time. win win

hellpato wrote:
In a store, you can open a book and what is inside and I can see if is good enough to buy it or not.

I noticed last week at the local store that the new WoC army book was sealed in plastic. So no leafing through it before buying.

Actually Black Diamond games just reversed their decision. So much back lash from it.

I have no problem with the "ban," I'm just not sure how people were supposed to play at all with some fliers without it. (or a .pdf...)

I've idly wondered for years if GW is actually worth the hassle for gaming stores. With the huge upfront cost and massive range compared to CCGs or Roleplaying, aside from prestige I've wondered why so many stores even try.

 carlosthecraven wrote:
Hi

As an FLGS gamer and customer, this decision ticks me off because it undermines the profitability of my FLGS.

I have already contacted GW customer service via e-mail expressing my ire over this decision. I intend to call on Tuesday as well.

If you are an FLGS supporter, throwing in your two cents on this unsatisfactory arrangement is worth doing. If you care, but remain silent, don't bitch when it continues.

Cheers,
Nate

I've done this as well. I told GW about my displeasure with the underhanded tactic displayed here, and made it clear in no uncertain terms that until the product becomes available through independent stockists, I will not buy it.

I won't be buying this supplement as I care too much about my FLGS to buy around them.

That being said, I hope the hyper competitive dorks that dislike FW in tournaments have their brains explode when necessary official rules are now harder to get. They are literally the same idea now.

 pretre wrote:
Wow. Just wow. Interesting response to more mail-order only things.

And as a point of interest, can't independents order mail order at a lesser discount? Pretty sure my FLGS has ordered me things that are mail order only before (Was Crusade of Fire mail order only? I know the LE Rulebook was Mail Order only. I got that through my FLGS.)

Not that GW isn't being a bit of a pain in the ass with all the limited and mail order only, but I think this may be overreacting.

What is hilarious to me is that most of the people who have an issue with this are still going to buy this book. If they weren't going to buy it, why would they care that an item is direct only? Crusade of Fire was technically direct-only, and sold out on pre-order. But that was for campaigns and didn't affect tournament play so noone gave a gak they couldn't buy it elsewhere for the most part. The people bitching here are either pissed they have to pay out again to stay on top of the current meta(GW's cash cow) or the usual talking heads who are just here to jump in on the latest anti-GW circlejerk.

Multiple detailed examples of why this was a terrible move on GW part.

Store owners upset that they are getting cut from the loop so bad they are banning rule books and encouraging switching games

Most people saying that they won't purchase a glorified FAQ because they invalidated the WD rules.

[sarcasm] Yeah, we're all just trying to spread a false hatred for this so there will more easily available for us to purchase. Either that or we to band wagon hatred for a company that many are invest heavily into. [/sarcasm]

Has it never occurred to you that we are honestly upset and voicing concern/criticism?

 Happygrunt wrote:

Grahamulot wrote:
I dont mean to poo on anyones hate parade......but the new FAQS out today clearly have all the rules updates for free.....you dont need the book. I will be getting it because it contains White Dwarf stuff I dont have and I'm a nerd. Maybe too quick to overreact. Also, I dont have a Blood Angels Codex, would you prefer I buy a 41.00 Codex, or a 33.00 Book that has two of my units instead of one, as I play regular marines?

Tell that to Ork players, who now have to buy a $33 book to play with ANY of their flyers.

A friend of mine runs dual dakka jets. He loves playing them and it breathed new life into his ork army. Now he has to play $33 to keep playing them at the local GW, where previously he had the rules for much cheaper. I don't see how this new books helps him at all. Frankly, I think this new book is appalling. And yet I feel I have to get it to keep playing any of my armies.

I find this completely inaccurate. I didnt even own the white dwarf but that didn't stop me from trying for feast of blades or any other tournament. Its not that dramatic of an issue. (I play orks and own 3 dakkajets) I won't be buying the book, and thats still not going to stop me from playing. But thats mainly the realistic point is that no one cares if I personally bring my copy (even if I dont bring in a copy of the BRB), just that there is one of the books around to use.

Heck half my tourney goers at the FLGS don't bring much more than their codex and FAQs. that doesn't keep them from playing in tournaments, much less playing at home/friendly game stores. Just answer GW's crazy concept with simply not buying the product. Discuss with your TO, etc. about how to deal with it. Im sure your FLGS wont mind that you spend the outragous amount of money for a GW direct product for the box of x guys or vehicle directly from him instead and still use the rules you need.

One book that you have to buy from GW does not the end of the world make. In actuality it'll be the first thing I've bought from GW since they got rid of metal bits and individual sprues. What's that, about 6-7 years?. So stores, whether they be FLGS charging me retail for my impulse buying or the 25-30% off online shops, really do need to quit bitching like it's the end of the world.

What actually prompted me to buy was I thought I heard (thought) that the release was going to be a short run, not available after their X many copies had been sold. Which makes it real hard to implement as anything but optional rules. And hell, I'm not buying an Ipad to purchase the flyer book electronically.

It's good to see anyone trying to stick to their guns, but losing a $70 Stormraven sale (or $45 DoomScythe, or $XX Dark Eldar flyer) because you won't let your customer use the rules he bought online is pretty stupid IMO.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Multiple detailed examples of why this was a terrible move on GW part.

Store owners upset that they are getting cut from the loop so bad they are banning rule books and encouraging switching games

And punishing their customers in response and alienating themselves from GW entirely by actively supporting their competitors. Speaking of terrible moves... I hope the small fraction of PP players can keep the lights on.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Most people saying that they won't purchase a glorified FAQ because they invalidated the WD rules.

[sarcasm] Yeah, we're all just trying to spread a false hatred for this so there will more easily available for us to purchase. Either that or we to band wagon hatred for a company that many are invest heavily into. [/sarcasm]

Has it never occurred to you that we are honestly upset and voicing concern/criticism?

So they published official rules for models that previously had a WD release. I suppose it would be better for GW to go back to not doing random releases for models in between codex releases? People bitched about that too. It doesn't matter what they do, people will criticize them. They don't do random releases, people complain about having to wait years for an update for new things for their army. Then GW releases new things for nearly all armies in between codex releases, and released enough of them to warrant a book for the models and people bitch about that too.

I'm sure there's some honest criticism in here, but by and large it is the usual Dakka hatefest. In fact it would be easier to just compile any GW news into a single GW release rumor thread so everyone can continue their moaning for each new GW release as they pre-order said releases and the rest of us can try and have a worthwhile discussion.

 Starfarer wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Wow. Just wow. Interesting response to more mail-order only things.

And as a point of interest, can't independents order mail order at a lesser discount? Pretty sure my FLGS has ordered me things that are mail order only before (Was Crusade of Fire mail order only? I know the LE Rulebook was Mail Order only. I got that through my FLGS.)

Not that GW isn't being a bit of a pain in the ass with all the limited and mail order only, but I think this may be overreacting.

What is hilarious to me is that most of the people who have an issue with this are still going to buy this book. If they weren't going to buy it, why would they care that an item is direct only? Crusade of Fire was technically direct-only, and sold out on pre-order. But that was for campaigns and didn't affect tournament play so noone gave a gak they couldn't buy it elsewhere for the most part. The people bitching here are either pissed they have to pay out again to stay on top of the current meta(GW's cash cow) or the usual talking heads who are just here to jump in on the latest anti-GW circlejerk.

Except...this book has nothing to do with the "meta" or staying on top of anything. All it is a compilation of existing rules that can be found elsewhere.

The problem is that it's the only way to get ahold of many of those rules now (without going to Ebay or illegal PDF's) and it's only available from GW's webstore, and cuts local game stores that form the foundation of many gaming communities out of the value chain.

I really don't think you really understand the problem people are having here.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I go to this store, It is vehemently Pro-PP and Anti-Gw. They regularly let PP games played on nights of other games, but wont allow 40k played on anything other then our days or other games. This store doesn't care about you if you don't play a game one of their employees plays.

Well, this is misleading and unfair in many ways.

I have had some issues with Gnome Games, and know others who have as well, but none of the issues that I or anyone I play with are anything like what you describe. Mostly the issue that I have seen people have with Gnome is that they do not do discounts other than the occasional sale.

Your post makes me believe you are a fairly new customer to Gnome Games, and only frequent the west side store. This location has a limited gaming space, and has very regular card tournaments (magic, pokemon, etc.) that make a lot more money for the store than mini gaming ever could. Getting bitchy online about this, but leaving out the whole story makes them sound much worse about this than they are in reality. In my experience, the employees at Gnome are very helpful and do their best to accommodate all of their customers.

As to the point about only supporting games their employees play, there are several employees of Gnome that do play 40k on a regular basis (one even has a Black Templars army, and will no doubt be disappointed about the inability to use flyers), so that part of your post makes no sense in this discussion.

Up until fairly recently (within the last 1-1.5 years) Pat promoted the hell out of GW. Two store locations running a total of 3 Ard Boyz qualifiers because there were so many people showing up to play, and then running the later rounds for our state, and getting nothing in return shows support for GW in my book. It was not until GW completely cut all tourney support and the general customer base began bitching up a storm that PP was introduced.

Pat did not push PP on customers, he was asked to carry the product line by quite a few people. The community is shifting to other games than WH40k, and they are shifting with the market. Add in the fact that PP has a balanced ruleset, puts out tournament rules and scenarios on a regular basis, lets the fanbase and retailers know about upcoming releases while they are still in development, and you will see why the store is shifting away from GW.

If you go to the east side location, you will find that there are always tables set-up upstairs and you can play whatever mini games you want as long as there is not an event going on already using them all.

 Vaktathi wrote:


Except...this book has nothing to do with the "meta" or staying on top of anything. All it is a compilation of existing rules that can be found elsewhere.

The problem is that it's the only way to get ahold of many of those rules now (without going to Ebay or illegal PDF's) and it's only available from GW's webstore, and cuts local game stores that form the foundation of many gaming communities out of the value chain.

I really don't think you really understand the problem people are having here.

The WD rules are in many cases still valid. There were FAQ updates, and some of those FAQs(Orks) simply referred to Death From the Skies. So to find the rules for Ork flyers you have to buy the book, maybe. So people who already have the rules, mostly, don't need this book. Those complaining, either want the rules for their army's flyer(s) for free, and don't want to buy a full book, essentially. If I am wrong here, please explain it better, but that's what the complaints I've read seem to indicate, you know, aside from the people who come here to complain about anything GW releases.

 nolzur wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I go to this store, It is vehemently Pro-PP and Anti-Gw. They regularly let PP games played on nights of other games, but wont allow 40k played on anything other then our days or other games. This store doesn't care about you if you don't play a game one of their employees plays.

Well, this is misleading and unfair in many ways.

I have had some issues with Gnome Games, and know others who have as well, but none of the issues that I or anyone I play with are anything like what you describe. Mostly the issue that I have seen people have with Gnome is that they do not do discounts other than the occasional sale.

Your post makes me believe you are a fairly new customer to Gnome Games, and only frequent the west side store. This location has a limited gaming space, and has very regular card tournaments (magic, pokemon, etc.) that make a lot more money for the store than mini gaming ever could. Getting bitchy online about this, but leaving out the whole story makes them sound much worse about this than they are in reality. In my experience, the employees at Gnome are very helpful and do their best to accommodate all of their customers.

As to the point about only supporting games their employees play, there are several employees of Gnome that do play 40k on a regular basis (one even has a Black Templars army, and will no doubt be disappointed about the inability to use flyers), so that part of your post makes no sense in this discussion.

Up until fairly recently (within the last 1-1.5 years) Pat promoted the hell out of GW. Two store locations running a total of 3 Ard Boyz qualifiers because there were so many people showing up to play, and then running the later rounds for our state, and getting nothing in return shows support for GW in my book. It was not until GW completely cut all tourney support and the general customer base began bitching up a storm that PP was introduced.

Pat did not push PP on customers, he was asked to carry the product line by quite a few people. The community is shifting to other games than WH40k, and they are shifting with the market. Add in the fact that PP has a balanced ruleset, puts out tournament rules and scenarios on a regular basis, lets the fanbase and retailers know about upcoming releases while they are still in development, and you will see why the store is shifting away from GW.

If you go to the east side location, you will find that there are always tables set-up upstairs and you can play whatever mini games you want as long as there is not an event going on already using them all.

I wasnt speaking of gnome games. I do not live in that area, so no comment on it. I frequent BDG.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

I wasnt speaking of gnome games. I do not live in that area, so no comment on it. I frequent BDG.

Okay. In a thread started about one games store, and with another thrown in later, it would be good to point out which you are hating on. Sorry for the confusion on this one then. I have no idea how that other store works, and until today was unaware of it's existence.

 Starfarer wrote:


The WD rules are in many cases still valid. There were FAQ updates, and some of those FAQs(Orks) simply referred to Death From the Skies. So to find the rules for Ork flyers you have to buy the book, maybe. So people who already have the rules, mostly, don't need this book. Those complaining, either want the rules for their army's flyer(s) for free, and don't want to buy a full book, essentially. If I am wrong here, please explain it better, but that's what the complaints I've read seem to indicate, you know, aside from the people who come here to complain about [i/]anything[/i] GW releases.

Let me see if I can explain it better (at least, my problem with it).

You say the WD rules are in many cases still valid.

How do you know that? The new FAQ says only that the rules for (for example) the Ork Bomma are now found in Death from the Skies. I have the WD, and I can't use the WD and the FAQ to find out anything about the current rules for the unit. Until the rulebook is out, no one knows what the current rules for the Ork Bomma are, or how closely they resembled the old rules. I'm leaving out the iPad edition here, because I don't have it, and I don't know what takes priority if the FAQ contradicts the iPad edition.



GW used to provide updated rules for the unit in the FAQ, allowing those of us who had already paid for the rules for the unit to actually use the unit in a GW game.

Now, despite the fact that I've paid GW for the model, and for the rules, I have to buy the rules again, because GW has decided not to include rules updates in their rules updates.

This isn't GW asking me to spend money for a new codex, or a new version of the rules. This is GW deciding to exclude certain rules updates from their own FAQ process, to instead require you to purchase them. I'm kind of wondering if they'll provide a FAQ and Errata for Death from the Skies, or just require you to buy a "More Death from the Skies" rulebook to find them out.

Can you see why I'm annoyed? Some models get free FAQ and Errata. Other models require the purchase of a separate book just for their Errata. I'm not even mentioning the fact that I can't buy this book from the place where I buy the models that the book provides rules for.

Oh, Do not think im hating on the store completely, they do alot of things right.