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hellpato wrote:
Lol, funny thought. If you play a game and your opponent go Vendetta spams. Just ask if he have Death from the Skies. If not, he can't use the Vendetta lol

Except it wouldn't work since he only needs his Codex to use the Vendetta.

EDIT: Never mind.

 tvih wrote:

hellpato wrote:
Lol, funny thought. If you play a game and your opponent go Vendetta spams. Just ask if he have Death from the Skies. If not, he can't use the Vendetta lol

Except it wouldn't work since he only needs his Codex to use the Vendetta.

But didn't the Vendetta get updated in the new book?

Mattman154 wrote:

 tvih wrote:

hellpato wrote:
Lol, funny thought. If you play a game and your opponent go Vendetta spams. Just ask if he have Death from the Skies. If not, he can't use the Vendetta lol

Except it wouldn't work since he only needs his Codex to use the Vendetta.

But didn't the Vendetta get updated in the new book?

It did, still not entirely sure if that actually means anything though, the book might just say that they don't get deepstrike/scout now. At which point this book becomes pointless for anyone not playing SM, BT or orks.

Mattman154 wrote:
But didn't the Vendetta get updated in the new book?

Only in that it lost the Scout and Deep Strike special rules, which the FAQ update gives to the Codex anyway.

I mean really, people, this has been brought up a million times by now. Only BT/SM who use Stormtalon or Stormraven, and Orks that use flyers "need" this in any shape or form. Everyone else just needs their Codex, just like before.

Mattman154 wrote:

But didn't the Vendetta get updated in the new book?

It is probably just a version where FAQ changes are included. It seems that only armies with WD flyers need this book, as their FAQs refer to it. Of course, it is possible that those units don't have substantial changes either, and WD article will still suffice. We'll see.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:
Just a friendly reminder that Warmachine and Hordes models all come with their own stat card. No forced book purchases after Prime/Primal (Unless you want to play Battle Engines, Collossals/Gargantuans, or Unbound).

Which, frankly, is worse by far.

Wanna know all there is to know about Chaos Space Marines? Buy the Chaos Space Marines Codex?

Wanna know all there is to know about Khador. Well,

Death from the Skies is breaking that "one-book-paradigm" and rightly getting some flak for it. But the WarmaHordes approach is like Death from the Skies issue with a massive exponent.

Except that they make books for each army too: WM gives you choices-you can buy the model with the stat card for rules only, and there is the option to buy the army book too that also has those same stats, but includes fluff and backstory. So the hardcore gamers who only want rules only need to buy the models. Those who want fluff and rules can get the book. It's set up so everybody wins. I've seen the book on a game store shelf, and almost bought it, but it was badly damaged and was listed at full price. Store employees also never even greeted my friend and me during the entire 20 minutes we were there, so I didn't even ask about discounting it to a reasonable price for damaged goods. I'll get it elsewhere.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:
Just a friendly reminder that Warmachine and Hordes models all come with their own stat card. No forced book purchases after Prime/Primal (Unless you want to play Battle Engines, Collossals/Gargantuans, or Unbound).

Which, frankly, is worse by far.

Wanna know all there is to know about Chaos Space Marines? Buy the Chaos Space Marines Codex?

Wanna know all there is to know about Khador. Well,

Death from the Skies is breaking that "one-book-paradigm" and rightly getting some flak for it. But the WarmaHordes approach is like Death from the Skies issue with a massive exponent.

Well, PP still has an online store that can be used to buy new cards as they come out. If you have a smart phone you can get the War Room app and purchase all the cards in the game and any ones new released (Not sure how Convergence of Cyriss will work).

So if you want to know the rules for Khador, you can:

Buy the physical card deck and any cards released afterwards
Buy the FoW: Khador book and any cards released afterwards
Buy the FoW: Khador book and the yearly anthology books
Buy the War Room deck for 8 dollars and have access to all their cards
Or buy every single Khador model

 tvih wrote:

hellpato wrote:
Lol, funny thought. If you play a game and your opponent go Vendetta spams. Just ask if he have Death from the Skies. If not, he can't use the Vendetta lol

Except it wouldn't work since he only needs his Codex to use the Vendetta.

OK, my mistake, I don't have the IG codex but you just need to change the name of the flyer to understand what I mean

 Zweischneid wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:
Just a friendly reminder that Warmachine and Hordes models all come with their own stat card. No forced book purchases after Prime/Primal (Unless you want to play Battle Engines, Collossals/Gargantuans, or Unbound).

Which, frankly, is worse by far.

Wanna know all there is to know about Chaos Space Marines? Buy the Chaos Space Marines Codex?

Wanna know all there is to know about Khador. Well,

Death from the Skies is breaking that "one-book-paradigm" and rightly getting some flak for it. But the WarmaHordes approach is like Death from the Skies issue with a massive exponent.

On the topic of Battle engines, et al: the rules for the model type are included in the books, this is true, but for the individual model is still included in the box. However, as these books not only cover your newest model type for your faction, but also several new models for your faction, every other faction, fluff rules, and variant army lists, you are getting substantial value for the investment. Also, IIRC the rules for Battle Engines and Collosals are included both in the boxes for them, and for free from the PP website.

If you want to know all there is about Khador, there just so happens to be a Forces of Warmachine: Khador book, a deck of cards with all the stat cards for the army (and is about a third of the price of the book) and any of the new supplements that come out that you will likely be buying not only for your new models, model types, variant lists, and fluff, but for everyone. New stuff. In addition, I might add, to the stuff THEY GIVE AWAY FOR FREE INSIDE THEIR OWN HOBBY MAGAZINE. So this would be MORE like if DFTS included Dakka Jet, Stormtalon, updated Stormraven and Vendetta rules, as well as a Tau Flyer, Eldar Flyer, Tyranid FMC, and SoB. It then also gives you AT LEAST one extra HQ choice, Troops choice, and Heavy Choice, complete with fluff and tactical hints PER ARMY, but also didn't contradict the free FAQ information that was on the website or model info distributed from another publication.

 Nagashek wrote:
Also, IIRC the rules for Battle Engines and Collosals are included both in the boxes for them, and for free from the PP website.

Unfortunately I think that is incorrect. The BE and Collosals specific special rules are not found in the boxes, just the stat cards (Granted for Collosals and Gargantuans they have the unique power attacks on the cards, just not things like 'they all have Pathfinder')

There's also War Room, which if you're using as a (non-cards) rules reference is free and has the complete Colossal/Gargantuan/Battle Engine/everything else rules.

 NELS1031 wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
The right thing to do would have been free PDFs, hell they used to have the entire WD blood angel codex as a PDF, free to print and play, but I'm expected to buy a mostly irrelevant to me book just to obtain necessary rules for part of my several thousand dollar army?

I'm not trying to troll , but honestly, whats another $33 + tax/shipping if its for something you already put several thousand dollars into? Its even less if you pull in some members of your gaming group and split it.

Yes, it would have been great if it was free, but knowing how GW is, did you realistically expect something substantially popular from GW to be free?

Its worth mentioning that I'm in the same position as you, I'm an Ork player as well, with at least a couple thousand put into it my army, so only part of this book appeals to me. Hell, I'm about to purchase at least 6 Krommlech Mega-Nobs and I don't even use them. I actually use Dakkajets and their variants, so I ordered the book.

unfortunately this is the mind set that leaks money... No offense dude, just using your quote as an example:

If you start say with a space marine battleforce, bought from a GW store, and say "You know? Im gonna need an HQ, its only 15-10 more dollars." so you buy it... at the GW store, the clerk notices your plight and adds his two cents... "Hey! you know for 45 more dollars you can get the stormtalon gunship! its great addition to an already great army..." you think about it for second and realize "I think I actually like the look of this model, I guess I'll get it"... when ringing you up, the clerk mentions "hey I noticed you didnt grab the codex for the army! you will actually need this to play... do wanna go ahead and grab that too?" you think about it realizing "Crap! I was going to play this weekend at a friends house... oh well, guess I need it" so you
toss that in the pile... He rings you up and you pay for your products, as you grab your stuff the clerk mentions "Hey I almost forgot, we have this new supplement available for all our armies that has important rule updates for all our armies (near bold-faced lie, yet a common product sales tactic), you should look into picking that up as well since you bought a flyer"... a slight silence as you agitation rises and you ask "how do I get it"... you have been hooked lined and sinkered by GW into saying "whats a little more icing on the cake?"

using the same scenario as a new customer at MOST IRs... Go in, grab the battle force and head to the register... Clerk asks "find everything ok?"... you say "yeah I think so" clerk says "ok appreciate your business, come back and see us again"... person goes on their way...

this is a large distributor vs. small distributor cookie cutter scenario that you can use with most business', and they teach it at business classes... now, I ask you which is more toxic for the gaming community? a persuassionary approach that nickels and dimes the customer? or an honest friendly approach that wont make the customer feel like a fool for their purchase...

do we know why GW's business model has changed to young teens and new customers? because they'll believe anything you tell them... and if you tell them when they walk into a GW store that something is cool, new and necessary? they're going to believe you and buy it...

and we wonder why mom and pops grocery store goes out of business when a walmart opens up next door...

 Starfarer wrote:

Right the gif is the problem not the people telling other posters to GTFO, or advocating on insinuating use illegal downloads. I thought those were against Dakka rules?

I believe both were addressed and if you have any further issues with moderation or the posting of gifs, please message me and keep OT discussion out of the thread. Thanks.

Surely it's their shop, so their rules, and if they say certain rules are not permited - they're not used. It's no different to a GW store saying you can't use substitutions or non GW figures.

 tvih wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

FW are official GW releases, as stated by GW.

Obviously beating a dead horse here, but as much as you want it to be like that, and as much as I don't care either way... it's not like that as long as actual WH40k BRB/FAQs and even GW-organized tournaments say they're official/legal for regular 40k. Until that time they're nothing but an optional expansion which opponents have to agree on being allowed or not.

I thought GW doesn't organize tournaments anymore. Their for what's allowed and disallowed is up to individual TO's.

This is the kind of issue that, more even than the ridiculously overpriced hardback codices, makes me think it's time too take advantage of the fact that you can't protect the rules of a game as your own intellectual property -- just the expression of the rules.

If someone were to release the ork and SM flier rules, newly formatted and very slightly rewritten (so that the rules were identical but the way they were phrased was slightly different), as a free PDF -- couldn't we all just make use of that?

I think it would be hilarious if GW just decided to cut off the faucet to these stores and suspend their accounts. The day a game store tries to push me away from one game and toward another is the day I stop patronizing them. It's the reason I stopped buying from weyland at all.

You think it would be hilarious if a store near you stopped carrying GW products and organizing Warhammer events? Okay....

Waethion wrote:
You think it would be hilarious if a store near you stopped carrying GW products and organizing Warhammer events? Okay....

I'm pretty sure he was saying that it would be hilarious if Games Workshop stopped selling to the retailers who are "banning" Death From the Skies while trying to push a trade-in 'deal' for a system that the shop has decided to throw their flag behind.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Waethion wrote:
You think it would be hilarious if a store near you stopped carrying GW products and organizing Warhammer events? Okay....

I'm pretty sure he was saying that it would be hilarious if Games Workshop stopped selling to the retailers who are "banning" Death From the Skies while trying to push a trade-in 'deal' for a system that the shop has decided to throw their flag behind.

Almost as amusing as the lawsuits the stores would counter with.

Because GW loves spending time in court.

Knowing GW, analysis of the legal documents would probably find that they've signed over the factory to the stores...

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm pretty sure he was saying that it would be hilarious if Games Workshop stopped selling to the retailers who are "banning" Death From the Skies while trying to push a trade-in 'deal' for a system that the shop has decided to throw their flag behind.

Yeah, and would he be happy if that was his own LGS? 'Cos it is someone's LGS.

 Starfarer wrote:

You are not entitled to anything. The fact that so many people equate a single purchase from a company to a lifetime of support with no further cost is hilarious. Do you also feel entitled to free DLC from a video game because you bought the game? Rules change in wargaming, and those rules changes necessitate new books.

Red Herring: DLC for a video game =/= Tabletop war game rules change or update. No, I dont not feel entitled to these rules and thats the point you are missing. This is a grab for money, any way you slice it from GW. The fact they have made this non-optional for armies with fliers is proof.

I'm not a white knight, but I was wondering when someone was going to drop that. The fact is Dakka is so skewed towards being rabidly anti-GW anyone trying to remain relatively neutral immediately gets labeled a white knight, or gets shouted down and told to leave.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Waethion wrote:
You think it would be hilarious if a store near you stopped carrying GW products and organizing Warhammer events? Okay....

I'm pretty sure he was saying that it would be hilarious if Games Workshop stopped selling to the retailers who are "banning" Death From the Skies while trying to push a trade-in 'deal' for a system that the shop has decided to throw their flag behind.

Almost as amusing as the lawsuits the stores would counter with.

Because GW loves spending time in court.

What lawsuit could the store counter with though?

I mean this as a genuine question, I'm sure one of the Dakka Lawyer Brigade will show up and answer it at some point.

Waethion wrote:Yeah, and would he be happy if that was his own LGS? 'Cos it is someone's LGS.

It might be someone's LGS, but it is a LGS that has decided to be as publicly adversarial as possible to a distributor/supplier of product. That adversarial stance might be warranted, but it doesn't change the fact that it might not have been the smartest way to go about the situation if you wanted to get your point across to GW.

I'm wondering how come some people see this (banning DftS) as any different from some tourney organizers who won't allow FW rules...

FW's rules are just as official as any rules published by GW, the only difference being that it is a web-exclusive available only trough order on FW's website.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Waethion wrote:
You think it would be hilarious if a store near you stopped carrying GW products and organizing Warhammer events? Okay....

I'm pretty sure he was saying that it would be hilarious if Games Workshop stopped selling to the retailers who are "banning" Death From the Skies while trying to push a trade-in 'deal' for a system that the shop has decided to throw their flag behind.

Almost as amusing as the lawsuits the stores would counter with.

Because GW loves spending time in court.

What lawsuit could the store counter with though?

I mean this as a genuine question, I'm sure one of the Dakka Lawyer Brigade will show up and answer it at some point.

I'm not overly sure about the US or individual states legislation, but the Office of Fair Trading would likely be a port of call in the UK. Unless these retailers could be shown to have been poor at paying the bills or other directly adverse actions, GW could not simply stop trading with them on a whim in the UK.

I would imagine there's something similar here in the US.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
For a company that claims to be a 'model company, not a rules company' it is amazing how much they try and squeeze people for rules.

You know they are only saying this real loud now because of the ChapterHouse lawsuit.

This only proves that they are a game company after all.

Apart from the fact that they think up fancy concepts, and then think up rules for them.
Not the other way around.
If they made rules for models, and then designed models to go with those rules, then maybe I could accept them being referred to as a "Game company", but they don't. They make models, and then happen to make rules that go with them.

 Goliath wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
For a company that claims to be a 'model company, not a rules company' it is amazing how much they try and squeeze people for rules.

You know they are only saying this real loud now because of the ChapterHouse lawsuit.

This only proves that they are a game company after all.

Apart from the fact that they think up fancy concepts, and then think up rules for them.
Not the other way around.
If they made rules for models, and then designed models to go with those rules, then maybe I could accept them being referred to as a "Game company", but they don't. They make models, and then happen to make rules that go with them.

Game design is really weird, the process can really go either way. GW coming up with the design and fluff concepts before the rules does not preclude them from being a game company.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It might be someone's LGS, but it is a LGS that has decided to be as publicly adversarial as possible to a distributor/supplier of product. That adversarial stance might be warranted, but it doesn't change the fact that it might not have been the smartest way to go about the situation if you wanted to get your point across to GW.

That wasn't the point: Cincydooley apparently thinks it would be hilarious if GW shut down sales of their product (and most likely by extension tournaments and other events) in certain gaming stores - which IMO is a stupid thing to say.