Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 d-usa wrote:
BDG and Gnome Games are in a hard place.

By standing up to the big bully they risk becoming bullies themselves by telling their customers what they can and cannot do at their stores.

If BDG and Gnome Games would simply say "If you didn't buy it in my store, you cannot play it in my store" (which is basically the message) the community would not respond so favorably I think. Their only possible redeeming factor is that the customers are not the target of the action, only collateral damage.

To me it seems more like a case where BDG and Gnome Games are protecting themselves from the "bully" by taking the "bully's" other "victims", and instituting a compulsary militia that actively disadvantages the other "victims" whilst not really doing much to the "bully", and just irritating the customers.

(Bully and Victim are in speech marks because I actively dislike bullying metaphors)

Waethion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It might be someone's LGS, but it is a LGS that has decided to be as publicly adversarial as possible to a distributor/supplier of product. That adversarial stance might be warranted, but it doesn't change the fact that it might not have been the smartest way to go about the situation if you wanted to get your point across to GW.

That wasn't the point: Cincydooley apparently thinks it would be hilarious if GW shut down sales of their product (and most likely by extension tournaments and other events) in certain gaming stores - which IMO is a stupid thing to say.

It would be hilarious though, that's the thing.

In this particular instance, the owner of a chain of stores has put his customers into the middle of an issue which should have been kept between him and his supplier/distributor to begin with.
To add to the whole thing, the owner is actively running an "exchange" program encouraging GW players to turn in their purchased materials for credit towards Privateer Press product.

 Kanluwen wrote:
t would be hilarious though, that's the thing.

In this particular instance, the owner of a chain of stores has put his customers into the middle of an issue which should have been kept between him and his supplier/distributor to begin with.
To add to the whole thing, the owner is actively running an "exchange" program encouraging GW players to turn in their purchased materials for credit towards Privateer Press product.

Discussion about whether or not it's the best course of action for the LGS aside, you are basically saying that because the LGS is hurting its customers instead of/in addition to GW, it would be funny if this backfired on the LGS by killing their GW scene? Who do you think that would hurt?

 Fafnir wrote:

 Goliath wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
For a company that claims to be a 'model company, not a rules company' it is amazing how much they try and squeeze people for rules.

You know they are only saying this real loud now because of the ChapterHouse lawsuit.

This only proves that they are a game company after all.

Apart from the fact that they think up fancy concepts, and then think up rules for them.
Not the other way around.
If they made rules for models, and then designed models to go with those rules, then maybe I could accept them being referred to as a "Game company", but they don't. They make models, and then happen to make rules that go with them.

Game design is really weird, the process can really go either way. GW coming up with the design and fluff concepts before the rules does not preclude them from being a game company.

I should probably be a bit clearer.
I will accept that they are, at least partially, a games company, but they are a games company as a small side section to encourage people to purchase their models.
They don't make models to encourage people to buy the rules, the make rules to encourage people to buy models.

I'm not referring to making the stats for specific models being better or worse depending on their £ cost, but the fact that people wouldn't buy as many models if they didn't have a book that said "you need to have this many models to battle".

Also, as a side point, I don't recall seeing many cases of people that only buy GW rules, and no models to go with them (even people using models from other companies is still people buying models due to having rules that encourage their use), whereas there are many cases of people buying the models, but no rules to go with them (I know that I do, though I am tempted to get back into battling, as I hadn't realised that Orks had a flyer now)

Waethion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
t would be hilarious though, that's the thing.

In this particular instance, the owner of a chain of stores has put his customers into the middle of an issue which should have been kept between him and his supplier/distributor to begin with.
To add to the whole thing, the owner is actively running an "exchange" program encouraging GW players to turn in their purchased materials for credit towards Privateer Press product.

Discussion about whether or not it's the best course of action for the LGS aside, you are basically saying that because the LGS is hurting its customers instead of/in addition to GW, it would be funny if this backfired on the LGS by killing their GW scene? Who do you think that would hurt?

I don't recall saying it "would hurt" anyone?

It would be an amusing situation to anyone looking from the sidelines. I'm fairly certain that some of the 40k players in the region might even get a chuckle out of it, just from the way that this particular store has taken a public "grand stand" against the bullying of Games Workshop and begun a push for their 40k players to convert to another system.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It would be an amusing situation to anyone looking from the sidelines. I'm fairly certain that some of the 40k players in the region might even get a chuckle out of it, just from the way that this particular store has taken a public "grand stand" against the bullying of Games Workshop and begun a push for their 40k players to convert to another system.

Okay, if that's your cup of tea. Perhaps you come from an area with an abundance of gaming locations or something, but I for one wouldn't find it funny if another independent disappeared.

I tried to read all of the thread, but its quite the task considering it basically started at Page 11 by the time I saw it(and its 2AM in Afghanistan, time to rack out) So I'll just throw in my 2 cents really quick.

LGS wants to ban it? Fine, their decision. Whether it is good or bad is their problem. I don't plan on buying this book, so I don't really care(typical attitude, yes)

However, it bugs me a bit that this is an ENGLISH book only. English is my primary language, so for me that's not an issue. What about our other gaming brethren that don't speak or read english as a primary language? I think its kind of a kick in the dick to them from GW by producing this book in english only. Not fair at all in my opinion.

Now, I see a few reasons for this:
1.) They don't like non-english speaking countries(highly doubtful)
2.) They are seeing how it will sell in the manner in which they are doing it, and will produce it in other languages later down the road
3.) Or its a test bed to see how well their shenanigans hold up in the market
a.) by producing a book that is GW Direct only(though my LGS has said they are ordering it)
b.) community testing of the rules for a later release in which they plan on potentially boning customers in the future somehow.
c.) to see what they can get away with before people reach their breaking point

Don't flame me for my opinion, its wasted energy typing. Of all the complaints I've seen about this book, or the way people view it nobody seems to have brought this to light.

I've deleted a bunch of off-topic posts (and accidentally deleted one I later decided should have been kept, but was quoted entire by another person, so the thoughts are still in the thread; sorry). Please stay on topic.

Edited I deleted my post since it might have not been in line with the topic.

-Adam

yeah,
All we can do is tell GW what we think they are doing wrong and hope they listen.
So I wrote GW a letter. pointing out why I'm not happy with them at the moment...

email them yourselves if you feel like letting them know how you feel. uk.custserv@gwplc.com



Panic...

So, as an Independent Retailer, I had an initial knee-jerk to this release. How *DARE* they? How *dare* they release a book and give me limited access to it?

But then I considered the book. What is this book? A glorified FAQ. It reprints material from an OOP book. (Which in itself was about three or four issues of White Dwarf material, really. And I still have it on my shelf mind you...) It reprints OOP White Dwarf material. (Which I do share the sentiment that it *should* have been a downloadable page. Or included with every instruction sheet for the darn things.) And FAQs for every 5th edition book that had flyers. (All the changes are in the FAQs on the website for those.)

So then who is going to buy it? Space Mehreens. Black Templars. Orks..... And that's about it? How many people are going to want their own copy of it? How many groups are going to pick one up? No, this isn't a book to put on my shelf. It's a book for people to ask me to order Which I can, as I have access to Available to Order items. GW never said, "Except for these Models/ Items..." with that. By making it ATO, they indirectly told me, "You don't want to keep this in stock." Why not? Few people will want to buy it and it'll be obsolete once those three Codexes are re-designed.

Unrelated to that, with this thread having devolved into PP vs GW argument... PP fanboys, you are not doing your game a service by attacking GW or advertising switching games because of this book. In my eyes it only serves to make you look like disgruntled former GW gamers. If you want to showcase your game, showcase it as an awesome game, not as a "better alternative to GW."

 Kanluwen wrote:

Waethion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It might be someone's LGS, but it is a LGS that has decided to be as publicly adversarial as possible to a distributor/supplier of product. That adversarial stance might be warranted, but it doesn't change the fact that it might not have been the smartest way to go about the situation if you wanted to get your point across to GW.

That wasn't the point: Cincydooley apparently thinks it would be hilarious if GW shut down sales of their product (and most likely by extension tournaments and other events) in certain gaming stores - which IMO is a stupid thing to say.

It would be hilarious though, that's the thing.

In this particular instance, the owner of a chain of stores has put his customers into the middle of an issue which should have been kept between him and his supplier/distributor to begin with.
To add to the whole thing, the owner is actively running an "exchange" program encouraging GW players to turn in their purchased materials for credit towards Privateer Press product.

Yes. I maintain it would be very funny. If they're offering a GW for Privateer trade in, why not, were you GW, Let them eat at the table they set and make them ONLY sell Privateer products, since they're so keen on pushing them. It's more this trade in BS and thr fact that theyre putting their player base smack in thr middle of the dispute, rather than the fruitless boycott itself, that bothers me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nice post Azakael

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
All we can do is tell GW what we think they are doing wrong and hope they listen.
So I wrote GW a letter. pointing out why I'm not happy with them at the moment...

email them yourselves if you feel like letting them know how you feel. uk.custserv@gwplc.com

Spoiler:

Sirs,
I hope at this time of public pressure you take the time to think and realise what it is you are doing wrong.

I've complained multiple times about being treated poorly as a WD subscriber, receiving my publication frequently after it's street date because you post them out late and your response has been 'that's how we're doing it.'
You're not exactly listening, are you?

With regards to the Fliers book, (I've already purchased it. I hope the fluff/mission content is good)
I believe that the rules for the Ork DakkaJets/Bommer and Space Marine Stormtalon should be available as free PDFs...
people who want to use these already have codexs and models, asking for more is pure greed!


You've given away free unit .pdf files before, when you released the Eldar night spinner.
I thought that was the start of great things from GW. New units added to a codex for free mid cycle! Yes Please!
Please go back to that kind of thinking! Your customers loved it! They bought the models!

Add to this the SpaceMarine IP rants you're having and you can see why you come across as a Bully.
No one likes a Bully. You know this, so why are you acting like one?

I've taken the time to write to you with my ideas and concerns.
Please take the time and consider my email and get back to me.

Panic...
GW fan.


PS
Also removing a customer interaction point during a crisis smacks of cowardice.
You don't see tesco deleting their facebook page at the first sign of horse trouble.

Panic...

Have you already sent this? Because there are a few spelling/grammar mistakes that might dilute the message slightly, and whilst I find some of the complaints on the forum rather over the top and nonsensical, I agree wholeheartedly with the overall message of your email, so want to help I've corrected them in the quote if you haven't already sent the email

 Firehead158 wrote:

3.) Or its a test bed to see how well their shenanigans hold up in the market
a.) by producing a book that is GW Direct only(though my LGS has said they are ordering it)
b.) community testing of the rules for a later release in which they plan on potentially boning customers in the future somehow.
c.) to see what they can get away with before people reach their breaking point

This is about what I was thinking. It seemed like CoF got cut down a bit because people could see how limited it was, though every "campaign" so far has seemed that way to me just some simple design issues. Still perhaps they wanted to keep people from seeing the book and calling it garbage and killing possible sales. Which honestly seems stupid. If I NEED the book for my unit updates, it would make far more sense for everyone to be able to access it easier.

You know, unless they want to hit you up for that shipping charge or make an extra $20 minimum off of you to avoid it. I can't see why any tournament would ever require this book really if not everyone is even going to be familiar with it. Optional I get...but balance changes should never be optional if there are any.

In the end I just don't get this book at all...

Azakael wrote:
So, as an Independent Retailer, I had an initial knee-jerk to this release. How *DARE* they? How *dare* they release a book and give me limited access to it?

But then I considered the book. What is this book? A glorified FAQ. It reprints material from an OOP book. (Which in itself was about three or four issues of White Dwarf material, really. And I still have it on my shelf mind you...) It reprints OOP White Dwarf material. (Which I do share the sentiment that it *should* have been a downloadable page. Or included with every instruction sheet for the darn things.) And FAQs for every 5th edition book that had flyers. (All the changes are in the FAQs on the website for those.)

So then who is going to buy it? Space Mehreens. Black Templars. Orks..... And that's about it? How many people are going to want their own copy of it? How many groups are going to pick one up? No, this isn't a book to put on my shelf. It's a book for people to ask me to order Which I can, as I have access to Available to Order items. GW never said, "Except for these Models/ Items..." with that. By making it ATO, they indirectly told me, "You don't want to keep this in stock." Why not? Few people will want to buy it and it'll be obsolete once those three Codexes are re-designed.

Unrelated to that, with this thread having devolved into PP vs GW argument... PP fanboys, you are not doing your game a service by attacking GW or advertising switching games because of this book. In my eyes it only serves to make you look like disgruntled former GW gamers. If you want to showcase your game, showcase it as an awesome game, not as a "better alternative to GW."

This is what I've been trying to tell my freinds, but far better put.

if you are upset by whats happening and you want to off load your gw pm me

 kevlar'o wrote:
if you are upset by whats happening and you want to off load your gw pm me

This man strikes me as an entrepeneur.

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
All we can do is tell GW what we think they are doing wrong and hope they listen.
So I wrote GW a letter. pointing out why I'm not happy with them at the moment...

email them yourselves if you feel like letting them know how you feel. uk.custserv@gwplc.com

Spoiler:

Sirs,
I hope at this time of public pressure you take the time to think and realise what it is your doing wrong.

I've complained multiple times about being treated poorly as a WD subscriber, receiving my publication frequently after it's street date because you post them out late and your response has been 'that's how we're doing it.'
Your not exactly listening are you?

With regards to the Fliers book, (I've already purchased it. hope the fluff/mission content is good)
I believe that the rules for the Ork DakkaJets/Bommer and Spacemarine Stormtalon should be available as free PDFs...
people who want to use these already have codexs and models. Asking for more is pure greed!


You've given away free unit pdfs before when you released the Eldar night spinner.
I thought that was the start of great things from GW. New units added to a codex for free mid cycle! Yes Please!
Please go back to that kind of thinking! your customers loved it! bought the models.

Add to this the SpaceMarine IP rants your having and you can see why you come across as a Bully.
No one likes a Bully. You know this so why are you acting like one?

I've taken the time to write to you with my ideas and concerns.
Please take the time and consider my email and get back to me.

Panic...
GW fan.


PS
Also removing a customer interaction point during a crisis smacks of cowardice.
You don't see tesco deleting their facebook page at the first sign of horse trouble.

Panic...

Sorry Panic, your email has inflammatory tones and states premises which GW will see as 'false' from the very beginning. Your first line is rude.

And there is hardly a 'crisis' point going on where a FB page is needed. That is a hyperbolic exaggeration... and an example of why they got rid of them was because people were constantly posting inflamitory and exaggerated comments which needed to be cleaned out.

If you wanted an honest answer, you should have stuck to one topic... and kept it professional. You failed to do that so you will be ignored and get a form response which is the opposite of what you wanted. The IP book issue and the facebook page were unneeded in your email and while are issues, turned a real email into a troll post in the eyes of whoever reads it.

I would have sent this:


All you did was rant at them, unless you give a customer service person a question to answer, you get a 'thanks for your feedback'. If you ask a question, many groups have requirements for at least a response to the question. Being simple and non-adversarial will help.

Also include your address and phone number... I get calls from companies all the time when I 'complain question' via email/written letter and provide a phone number.

 Panic wrote:
So I wrote GW a letter. pointing out why I'm not happy with them at the moment...

I hate to be the one to say this Panic, but the next time you send a formal complaint to GW (or any corporate entity) please, for the love of God, learn the difference between “your” and “you’re”. It’s very easy to ignore a complaint E-mail. It’s even easier when the guy who wrote it didn’t even hit spell check.

In all honesty, I'm pretty sure that GW customer service won't have any interest in it at all. Or any ability to influence it.

Writing it on paper, sending it through the mail and addressing it to a specific person (even if it is... Jervis), has a chance in hell, at least, of it getting taken along to a meeting before it is ignored.

Please try and acknowledge the effect that exploiting a customer base can have -

for the businesses, it means people leaving the hobby. Less sales, less long term investments into the game system.

For the player base, it means fewer people to play the game with.

This isn't rabid hair on fire insanity, it's going to be a reality. There are going to be less people playing.

One wonders if, since this is English only, do the NON-English FAQ's just include the changes properly and for free, or simply leave the WD rules intact and in place?

 Compel wrote:

Writing it on paper, sending it through the mail and addressing it to a specific person (even if it is... Jervis), has a chance in hell, at least, of it getting taken along to a meeting before it is ignored.

People here and elsewhere really must distinguish between our friendly neighborhood design team types and the corporate senior management. Jervis has absolutely no bearing on anything other than steering the rules and creative department and even then he and the others are entirely at the mercy of financial considerations and instruction handed to them by the corporate senior management.

The design team are not sitting in the same board meetings that Kirby and co are, if they attend these meetings at all they will be going to them to present or to give an opinion on how the customer base might receive a new product, but they are not decision makers in this regard.

 TedNugent wrote:
Please try and acknowledge the effect that exploiting a customer base can have -

for the businesses, it means people leaving the hobby. Less sales, less long term investments into the game system.

For the player base, it means fewer people to play the game with.

This isn't rabid hair on fire insanity, it's going to be a reality. There are going to be less people playing.

main factor is time

That is true, however...

All signs point to corporate senior management really not giving a fudge. Every decision about this must have already been worked out to benefit their own personal interests.

There is nothing any letter from any of us could even possible do to influence them that hasn't already been said to them from people within the company, like Rick Priestley, Bob Naismith, Jake Thornton or any other of the dozens of people which have left over the years to found their own companies.

So, accepting that your interests as a player are in complete opposition to the interests of corporate, who does that leave that you can have influence on, in even the tiniest way?

The design studio.

If Jervis, Phil Kelly or (gasp) even Matt Ward really start seeing articulate emails saying, "we are tired of getting "messed with" by your bosses" it might do some, tiny shred of good. Even if it is just them deciding they've had enough of it and doing a Priestley. Or even a Livingstone, and going off to work in computer games.

yeah,

Goliath wrote: ... There are a few spelling/grammar mistakes that might dilute the message slightly, and whilst I find some of the complaints on the forum rather over the top and nonsensical, I agree wholeheartedly with the overall message of your email, so want to help I've corrected them in the quote if you haven't already sent the email

H.B.M.C. wrote:I hate to be the one to say this Panic, but the next time you send a formal complaint to GW (or any corporate entity) please, for the love of God, learn the difference between “your” and “you’re”. It’s very easy to ignore a complaint E-mail. It’s even easier when the guy who wrote it didn’t even hit spell check.

already sent : (
I'll send them a FAQ in a couple of months.

nkelsch wrote:Sorry Panic, your email has inflammatory tones and states premises which GW will see as 'false' from the very beginning. Your first line is rude.

while still inviting the email to be read? As that was kinda the point..

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Compel wrote:

Writing it on paper, sending it through the mail and addressing it to a specific person (even if it is... Jervis), has a chance in hell, at least, of it getting taken along to a meeting before it is ignored.

People here and elsewhere really must distinguish between our friendly neighborhood design team types and the corporate senior management. Jervis has absolutely no bearing on anything other than steering the rules and creative department and even then he and the others are entirely at the mercy of financial considerations and instruction handed to them by the corporate senior management.

The design team are not sitting in the same board meetings that Kirby and co are, if they attend these meetings at all they will be going to them to present or to give an opinion on how the customer base might receive a new product, but they are not decision makers in this regard.

I expect that the customer service team will be asked for a round up of consumer reaction, if I can influance that I'm winning, If at the very least they pass along a message of how many angry letters they've recieved I'll have added +1 to that list.

Panic...

 Panic wrote:
already sent : (
I'll send them a FAQ in a couple of months.

Hahaha!

Ok, that actually did make me laugh. Well done.

 Kanluwen wrote:


In this particular instance, the owner of a chain of stores has put his customers into the middle of an issue which should have been kept between him and his supplier/distributor to begin with.

I'm not sure how this was kept between the owner of the store and GW when the whole thing started by GW interfering with his business and telling his customers where to shop for the next rule book. GW put the customers into this by dictating their buying conditions, forcing them to go to GW directly. I just don't see how anyone can say the owner should keep it between him and GW when GW made this a contest over the customers in the first place.

Didn't the whole thing start with GW lying to LGS owners in an attempt to turn customers away from them?

 Polonius wrote:
Is it just me, or would a classier approach to this would have been the store telling everybody not to bother buying it, because there will be a store copy available at all times, including tournaments, so nobody need buy their own?

This is a good idea.

I cannot advocate downloading and copying as this is illegal but I understand if people do it.

The rules should just be in the damn box - part of the instructions - just like they used to do with Datafax cards.