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 CIsaac wrote:
I emailed GW Customer Service with politely worded letter (it was, I promise) that I would decline to order this product until it was made available to independent retailers at their normal discount. This was the response I got:

Re: Death from the Skies
From:
US Customer Service <custserv@gwplc.com>
To: [snip]

Hey there,



Thanks for writing in to us! Sorry for any confusion that there may be. Independent Retailers do have the ability to sell Death From the Skies just like any other Direct Product. These books are also not stocked in Games Workshop Hobby Centers as they are a Direct Item.



Thanks!


Games Workshop

North America Customer Services

Others had posted that their FLGS owners checked their ability to order after it was 'released' and saw it in the computer.

So maybe while they played dumb and refused to say it is coming and give warning, I am curious to see if it appears in the direct sales option 'now' that it has been actually released? I wonder if they can Backorder it for the 'lesser discount' they get from direct only orders? Or maybe GW stealthed changed their policy on this.

Clsaac, I think your premise was the best thing I saw in this thread where you actually 'went without' a product until you could buy it via your FLGS. You made a real stand as a customer. Major Kudos to you. I hope that what they said is valid ad your FLGS can order it soon.

So FLGSs can now order a product that's sold out so not available to them, oh that makes it all better.

That may be:

a) True, and an initial oversight.
b) True, and a policy they've smartly enacted.
c) False, a misunderstanding
d) False, a flat out lie

Bottom line: They've sold out. It doesn't matter for the foreseeable future. However, I know many store owners like myself will be trying to get to the bottom of all this this morning. What they need to do with us is apologize. They were either incompetent or malicious, but it was not business as usual.


Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520

925-681-0600
www.blackdiamondgames.com
blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com

I'd say being GW there is a 60/40 chance what they mean is "Yes, your FLGS can order it. They wont get any discount and they'll have to mark it up if they expect to make a profit on it but no one is saying they can't order it."

What I don't get:

Silly bans, threats to steal customers away, buying up rulebooks for instore credit, etc. Makes store owners look like trite little brats who weren't picked first in a playground game. Grow up. "ihategw" really?? Maturity not a prerequisite to sell plastic toys, I guess.

Want to be treated professionaly? Act professional.

What I do get:

That FLGS need to make a noise. This is a very dangerous trend and one that they cannot go unchallenged. Making needed products for gameplay exclusive to the online store is a complete betrayal to independent retailers and a classic case of biting the hand that feeds you.

A nice, well thought out, big boy open letter would have given certain people a moral high ground... now its "But he called me a name first!"

It's my understanding that the "ihategw" issue is a blog/email address for the new guy that runs GW and not something set up by any of the store owners that are participating in this discussion.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I'd say being GW there is a 60/40 chance what they mean is "Yes, your FLGS can order it. They wont get any discount and they'll have to mark it up if they expect to make a profit on it but no one is saying they can't order it."

Independents get less of a discount on direct-only but still get a discount.

 pretre wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
I'd say being GW there is a 60/40 chance what they mean is "Yes, your FLGS can order it. They wont get any discount and they'll have to mark it up if they expect to make a profit on it but no one is saying they can't order it."

Independents get less of a discount on direct-only but still get a discount.

It was stated earlier in the thread there are 2 types of direct only, I believe they were 10% off and crappy packaging and no discount at all. Even if I am wrong on that these set a new precedent, it wouldn't be so far fetched that GW have changed their procedure in these matters at the same time.

Right, and more recent information says that this is the type that retailers can get but they couldn't order it until it was announced.

That recent information is coming from GW customer services though, not exactly someone I'd put much (or any really) faith in.

Very true. I guess we will find out once it is back in stock though.

All of this, the firestorm of discontent, would have not happen if there was more direct communication coming from GW to the retailers.

But this is how it is going to be on how they communicate and sell providing certain GW products to their retail and customer base for the foreseeable future.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Goliath wrote:
If they made rules for models, and then designed models to go with those rules, then maybe I could accept them being referred to as a "Game company", but they don't. They make models, and then happen to make rules that go with them.

Really?
The Harpy would like a word with you.
The Tervigon as well - 2 years with no model.
Doom of Malantai - no model yet. Also the Parasite of Mortrex. And the Tyranid Prime.
Flyrant - no model for how long? 3rd edition was the first Flyrant?
Dark Eldar were missing quite a few models for a long time as well.

The statement that they make models first and then rules for them is demonstrably false.

Maybe I should have used the word concept instead. Either way, in the November issue of White Dwarf, Jes Goodwin stated that the concepts for models and then the models (in most cases) were made first, before rules were developed to accompany the concepts.

nkelsch wrote:

 CIsaac wrote:
I emailed GW Customer Service with politely worded letter (it was, I promise) that I would decline to order this product until it was made available to independent retailers at their normal discount. This was the response I got:

Re: Death from the Skies
From:
US Customer Service <custserv@gwplc.com>
To: [snip]

Hey there,



Thanks for writing in to us! Sorry for any confusion that there may be. Independent Retailers do have the ability to sell Death From the Skies just like any other Direct Product. These books are also not stocked in Games Workshop Hobby Centers as they are a Direct Item.



Thanks!


Games Workshop

North America Customer Services

Others had posted that their FLGS owners checked their ability to order after it was 'released' and saw it in the computer.

So maybe while they played dumb and refused to say it is coming and give warning, I am curious to see if it appears in the direct sales option 'now' that it has been actually released? I wonder if they can Backorder it for the 'lesser discount' they get from direct only orders? Or maybe GW stealthed changed their policy on this.

Clsaac, I think your premise was the best thing I saw in this thread where you actually 'went without' a product until you could buy it via your FLGS. You made a real stand as a customer. Major Kudos to you. I hope that what they said is valid ad your FLGS can order it soon.

Thanks. I appreciate that.

In a perfect world both the LGS and the GWs of the world can thrive together an cooperatively. I hate that does not appear to be the case currently. But it impacts me, personally, more negatively if I lose my LGS than if GW goes under. GW has multiple replacements on the market. The LGS is not so easily replaced and requires someone to pour their soul and financial well being into a risky project. I can't ask that of someone without being willing to stand behind them as a customer so long as they act in good faith.

 Goliath wrote:

Maybe I should have used the word concept instead. Either way, in the November issue of White Dwarf, Jes Goodwin stated that the concepts for models and then the models (in most cases) were made first, before rules were developed to accompany the concepts.

That's an irrelevant statement - of course you have to come up with a concept before writing rules for it. They made rules for those models *long* before releasing a kit for them. In some cases many years (and multiple editions/codexes) before releasing a kit.

Heck - Space Wolves TWC. Concept - "Wolf cavalry with Marines riding them!" How long did it take for the models?

 jonolikespie wrote:
That recent information is coming from GW customer services though, not exactly someone I'd put much (or any really) faith in.

Why? Compared to most parts of the business Customer Services are very well run, and willing to help the customer.
A friend had a dodgy wheel on a battle wagon that he bought online from the GW website, and he emailed them and showed them a photo and they sent out a new kit almost immediately, and didn't even ask for the original one back.
I'd definitely be willing to us some faith in them.

 Goliath wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
That recent information is coming from GW customer services though, not exactly someone I'd put much (or any really) faith in.

Why? Compared to most parts of the business Customer Services are very well run, and willing to help the customer.
A friend had a dodgy wheel on a battle wagon that he bought online from the GW website, and he emailed them and showed them a photo and they sent out a new kit almost immediately, and didn't even ask for the original one back.
I'd definitely be willing to us some faith in them.

There's a big difference between their ability to provide good customer service, after all that is their job, and their ability to give accurate rules, rumor, sales, production, marketing or other information, i.e. not their job. This is especially funny because you can e-mail them the same question within minutes and they will answer differently. They are just CS lackeys and do not have any more information about those things than any one of us. They will happily answer your question and replace your models though.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Goliath wrote:

Maybe I should have used the word concept instead. Either way, in the November issue of White Dwarf, Jes Goodwin stated that the concepts for models and then the models (in most cases) were made first, before rules were developed to accompany the concepts.

That's an irrelevant statement - of course you have to come up with a concept before writing rules for it. They made rules for those models *long* before releasing a kit for them. In some cases many years (and multiple editions/codexes) before releasing a kit.

Heck - Space Wolves TWC. Concept - "Wolf cavalry with Marines riding them!" How long did it take for the models?

Concept as in what the thing will actually look like, even if there is no model.
Tervigon - I want a rule that allows me to spawn gaunts! - design rule detailing the circumstances by which gaunts could be deployed by another model - then design concept for actually gribbly beast that can spawn gaunts.
That isn't how they make the concepts/models/rules. GW have stated specifically that that isn't how they make the concepts/models/rules.

 Goliath wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Goliath wrote:

Maybe I should have used the word concept instead. Either way, in the November issue of White Dwarf, Jes Goodwin stated that the concepts for models and then the models (in most cases) were made first, before rules were developed to accompany the concepts.

That's an irrelevant statement - of course you have to come up with a concept before writing rules for it. They made rules for those models *long* before releasing a kit for them. In some cases many years (and multiple editions/codexes) before releasing a kit.

Heck - Space Wolves TWC. Concept - "Wolf cavalry with Marines riding them!" How long did it take for the models?

Concept as in what the thing will actually look like, even if there is no model.
Tervigon - I want a rule that allows me to spawn gaunts! - design rule detailing the circumstances by which gaunts could be deployed by another model - then design concept for actually gribbly beast that can spawn gaunts.
That isn't how they make the concepts/models/rules. GW have stated specifically that that isn't how they make the concepts/models/rules.

And if they were a model company first, the models would at worst come out at the same time as the rules.
That's demonstrably false.

What a pathetic, childish response from Gnome Games. Certainly wouldn't want to game there if that's their attitude to their customers hobby.

They may think they're one of the guys by joining the anti-GW crowd, but what they are in fact doing is insulting customers who enjoy GW products, of which there are still many.

If GW products are that much of a problem do what my FLGS does and don't stock GW products. It's a bit hypocritical to public slam GW and then still run their games.

 Ugavine wrote:
What a pathetic, childish response from Gnome Games. Certainly wouldn't want to game there if that's their attitude to their customers hobby.

They may think they're one of the guys by joining the anti-GW crowd, but what they are in fact doing is insulting customers who enjoy GW products, of which there are still many.

If GW products are that much of a problem do what my FLGS does and don't stock GW products. It's a bit hypocritical to public slam GW and then still run their games.

Pretty much this. Expect torrents of hate, though, as it's the fashionable thing to hate on GW in favour of 3rd party games.

 Ugavine wrote:
What a pathetic, childish response from Gnome Games. Certainly wouldn't want to game there if that's their attitude to their customers hobby.

They may think they're one of the guys by joining the anti-GW crowd, but what they are in fact doing is insulting customers who enjoy GW products, of which there are still many.

If GW products are that much of a problem do what my FLGS does and don't stock GW products. It's a bit hypocritical to public slam GW and then still run their games.

More or less Hypocritical than GW classifying me as a "Partnership Level" store but not giving us information about anything we are expected to sell?

More or less Childish than denying a book is coming out when their own stores post on facebook about it?

The reason many retailers are pissed is not about money. It's about being able to take care of our customers. My customers didn't get this book. They didn't know it was coming out. I had no information about it at all. I can't order something that is sold out.

The best store owners care about our customer, and many of us are gamers who like GW's games and models. How Pathetic is it that I myself own the Ork flyers and can't get rules for my own models? I own two gaming stores and sell hundreds of thousands of dollars in GW every year. And I can't get a copy of the damn book for myself, let alone a customer.

It takes a huge amount of noise to actually make GW sit up and take notice. If no one complains, they think "See! The plan is working, time to shovel more bs onto the independent stores. What can they do?"

rigeld2 wrote:

 Goliath wrote:
Maybe I should have used the word concept instead. Either way, in the November issue of White Dwarf, Jes Goodwin stated that the concepts for models and then the models (in most cases) were made first, before rules were developed to accompany the concepts.

And if they were a model company first, the models would at worst come out at the same time as the rules.
That's demonstrably false.

They're certainly a model company first, as they have repeatedly and consistently communicated that their first priority is the models. That being said, it's largely an irrelevancy what they label themselves as being. If they choose to sell us rules or models, we can reasonably ask to get good service in regards to either.

 pretre wrote:
Right, and more recent information says that this is the type that retailers can get but they couldn't order it until it was announced.

And as you can see, mikhaila said that they denied the product even existed, so this isn't as cut and dried as "Oh they could've just ordered it normally!".

 mikhaila wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
What a pathetic, childish response from Gnome Games. Certainly wouldn't want to game there if that's their attitude to their customers hobby.

They may think they're one of the guys by joining the anti-GW crowd, but what they are in fact doing is insulting customers who enjoy GW products, of which there are still many.

If GW products are that much of a problem do what my FLGS does and don't stock GW products. It's a bit hypocritical to public slam GW and then still run their games.

More or less Hypocritical than GW classifying me as a "Partnership Level" store but not giving us information about anything we are expected to sell?

More or less Childish than denying a book is coming out when their own stores post on facebook about it?

The reason many retailers are pissed is not about money. It's about being able to take care of our customers. My customers didn't get this book. They didn't know it was coming out. I had no information about it at all. I can't order something that is sold out.

The best store owners care about our customer, and many of us are gamers who like GW's games and models. How Pathetic is it that I myself own the Ork flyers and can't get rules for my own models? I own two gaming stores and sell hundreds of thousands of dollars in GW every year. And I can't get a copy of the damn book for myself, let alone a customer.

It takes a huge amount of noise to actually make GW sit up and take notice. If no one complains, they think "See! The plan is working, time to shovel more bs onto the independent stores. What can they do?"

Id' like to thank you, Mikhaila, and Balckdog for posting in this thread as you two are the ones really be impacted by this incident. Thank you for sharing your perspectives.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Right, and more recent information says that this is the type that retailers can get but they couldn't order it until it was announced.

And as you can see, mikhaila said that they denied the product even existed, so this isn't as cut and dried as "Oh they could've just ordered it normally!".

Right, that's what I said. They couldn't get it because of the silly 'it doesn't exist until it is announced' policy. Now they can order it 'normally' the way Independents can get Direct Only stuff normally, but it is sold out.

It is a total cock-up still; I was just clarifying that they can get it in store once it is back in stock to counter the folks who were saying 'OMG a book that independents can never carry!!!'

 CIsaac wrote:
I emailed GW Customer Service with politely worded letter (it was, I promise) that I would decline to order this product until it was made available to independent retailers at their normal discount. This was the response I got:

Re: Death from the Skies
From:
US Customer Service <custserv@gwplc.com>
To: [snip]

Hey there,



Thanks for writing in to us! Sorry for any confusion that there may be. Independent Retailers do have the ability to sell Death From the Skies just like any other Direct Product. These books are also not stocked in Games Workshop Hobby Centers as they are a Direct Item.



Thanks!


Games Workshop

North America Customer Services

I received the same reply.

 Lordhat wrote:

 CIsaac wrote:
I emailed GW Customer Service with politely worded letter (it was, I promise) that I would decline to order this product until it was made available to independent retailers at their normal discount. This was the response I got:

I received the same reply.

Woah woah woah. You guys e-mailed GW CS at two different times and got the same response? I need to sit down for a little bit. This is truly an amazing day.

I think it was mostly that retailers couldn't get it for sale the day it came out. And now that it's a normal direct item can't get them until the next run comes in. And even then they'll have to keep asking, hoping to get an order in before it goes back up on the GW site.

Basically it's a big hassle and GW got a leg up on them in what I would consider an underhanded way. And I rarely have an issue with GW's policies. Actions that hurt the FLGS community though annoy me. Almost as much as a local store saying I couldn't use the book if I did purcahse it would annoy me

 pretre wrote:

 Lordhat wrote:

 CIsaac wrote:
I emailed GW Customer Service with politely worded letter (it was, I promise) that I would decline to order this product until it was made available to independent retailers at their normal discount. This was the response I got:

I received the same reply.

Woah woah woah. You guys e-mailed GW CS at two different times and got the same response? I need to sit down for a little bit. This is truly an amazing day.

To be fair, it was EXACTLY the same response. As in Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V style.