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 Lordhat wrote:

To be fair, it was EXACTLY the same response. As in Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V style.

No, I'm not doubting you... I am amazed because GWCS rarely gives the same answer to anything twice. It implies that they might be taking their response seriously. Which is shocking.

 pretre wrote:

 Lordhat wrote:

To be fair, it was EXACTLY the same response. As in Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V style.

No, I'm not doubting you... I am amazed because GWCS rarely gives the same answer to anything twice. It implies that they might be taking their response seriously. Which is shocking.

I got the exact opposite impression. I know a "company line" when I see one.

No, that's the amazing thing. They almost never have a company line. Usually it is whatever the CS grunt feels like saying at the time. This means they are taking it seriously because someone actually spent the time to make a company line.

Not surprised that the CS folks were given a very specific response to copy/paste into inquiries about Death from the Skies since it sold out so quickly and has both customers and retailers unhappy for a number of reasons.

If they take this seriously, we'll see what happens with their next release, I suppose...

Ban a book because of hurt feelings(I know its more than that)? Geez, glad I don't rely on that LGS for my GW or gaming.

One of my gaming buddies moved to an area that is anti GW. He said he can't even mention GW without the store minions having a conniption.

 Byte wrote:
Ban a book because of hurt feelings(I know its more than that)? Geez, glad I don't rely on that LGS for my GW or gaming.

One of my gaming buddies moved to an area that is anti GW. He said he can't even mention GW without the store minions having a conniption.

It's not because of "hurt feelings." This move by GW smacks of dealing in bad faith. If GW was all direct-only, that'd be a different story. But this new policy of selective direct-only is a stick in the eye to not only non-GWhobby stores, but customers as well.

-C6

 catharsix wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Ban a book because of hurt feelings(I know its more than that)? Geez, glad I don't rely on that LGS for my GW or gaming.

One of my gaming buddies moved to an area that is anti GW. He said he can't even mention GW without the store minions having a conniption.

It's not because of "hurt feelings." This move by GW smacks of dealing in bad faith. If GW was all direct-only, that'd be a different story. But this new policy of selective direct-only is a stick in the eye to not only non-GWhobby stores, but customers as well.

-C6

I wrote "(I know its more than that)" in my post.

Talking to my GW rep:

These are NOT available for retailers to order, period. Customer service is incorrect.

800 copies were printed. 1000 were sold. Despite FAQs and such pointing to this book, they were surprised at the demand and have had a pretty big negative response.

The book will be reprinted. There is no plans he knows of to make it widely available.

Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520

925-681-0600
www.blackdiamondgames.com
blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com

Oh, GW... screwing over retailers day after day. And by proxy, screwing over the customers. I recently opened a comic/gaming/hobby store and had the ... ahem... please of dealing with GW. Their motto in their handbook is honesty, integrity and courage. Yet they didn't have the courage to call me back about my account and when they did, lied. They can come to me now... at which point I'll say no. Privateer, Corvus Belli, Wyrd... all wonderful companies which are getting my utmost support.

While the fires are hot I should really post about my whole ordeal.

Regardless, GW is doing a HUGE disservice and are being down right crooked in their dealings with this release. Can't wait until the next couple releases when prices go even higher and there are more and more people leaving for other (better) companies and their games.

 pretre wrote:
No, that's the amazing thing. They almost never have a company line. Usually it is whatever the CS grunt feels like saying at the time. This means they are taking it seriously because someone actually spent the time to make a company line.

I doubt they're taking it to seriously, if that company line is a flat out lie.

 djones520 wrote:
I doubt they're taking it to seriously, if that company line is a flat out lie.

Well, at this point we don't really know. Right now, we have a bunch of people on the internet saying a bunch of different things. I don't know blackdiamond or his rep from a hole in the ground, just as I don't know some random paste of what a GW Customer Service rep might have said.

I think we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

 pretre wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I doubt they're taking it to seriously, if that company line is a flat out lie.

Well, at this point we don't really know. Right now, we have a bunch of people on the internet saying a bunch of different things. I don't know blackdiamond or his rep from a hole in the ground, just as I don't know some random paste of what a GW Customer Service rep might have said.

I think we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

I intended on swinging by my local store tomorrow and finding out what BS GW was slinging over the issue. Though, we've had multiple store owners on here, with others backing their creds up, all saying the same thing, that GW is lying over the issue.

 mikhaila wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
What a pathetic, childish response from Gnome Games. Certainly wouldn't want to game there if that's their attitude to their customers hobby.

They may think they're one of the guys by joining the anti-GW crowd, but what they are in fact doing is insulting customers who enjoy GW products, of which there are still many.

If GW products are that much of a problem do what my FLGS does and don't stock GW products. It's a bit hypocritical to public slam GW and then still run their games.

More or less Hypocritical than GW classifying me as a "Partnership Level" store but not giving us information about anything we are expected to sell?

More or less Childish than denying a book is coming out when their own stores post on facebook about it?

The reason many retailers are pissed is not about money. It's about being able to take care of our customers. My customers didn't get this book. They didn't know it was coming out. I had no information about it at all. I can't order something that is sold out.

The best store owners care about our customer, and many of us are gamers who like GW's games and models. How Pathetic is it that I myself own the Ork flyers and can't get rules for my own models? I own two gaming stores and sell hundreds of thousands of dollars in GW every year. And I can't get a copy of the damn book for myself, let alone a customer.

It takes a huge amount of noise to actually make GW sit up and take notice. If no one complains, they think "See! The plan is working, time to shovel more bs onto the independent stores. What can they do?"

There is still a right and a wrong way to address the issue.

I don't know the nature of your store, if it's just gaming, RPGs or collectables. But specialist stores not being able to get product is hardly news. A friend of mine owns a store selling comics and collectables, mainly action figures. And numerous times customers including myself have asked for items that he just couldn't get. Especially when items are very limited in number, as I believe this book was. If he cried every time he couldn't stock something he'd be a weeping mess. It's the nature of specialist business.

 mikhaila wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
What a pathetic, childish response from Gnome Games. Certainly wouldn't want to game there if that's their attitude to their customers hobby.

They may think they're one of the guys by joining the anti-GW crowd, but what they are in fact doing is insulting customers who enjoy GW products, of which there are still many.

If GW products are that much of a problem do what my FLGS does and don't stock GW products. It's a bit hypocritical to public slam GW and then still run their games.

More or less Hypocritical than GW classifying me as a "Partnership Level" store but not giving us information about anything we are expected to sell?

More or less Childish than denying a book is coming out when their own stores post on facebook about it?

The reason many retailers are pissed is not about money. It's about being able to take care of our customers. My customers didn't get this book. They didn't know it was coming out. I had no information about it at all. I can't order something that is sold out.

The best store owners care about our customer, and many of us are gamers who like GW's games and models. How Pathetic is it that I myself own the Ork flyers and can't get rules for my own models? I own two gaming stores and sell hundreds of thousands of dollars in GW every year. And I can't get a copy of the damn book for myself, let alone a customer.

It takes a huge amount of noise to actually make GW sit up and take notice. If no one complains, they think "See! The plan is working, time to shovel more bs onto the independent stores. What can they do?"

No one is saying GW is in the right here, buddy. But two wrongs don't make a right, and stores writing a whiny email (like my FLGS did this morning) telling me I can't use the new book because -they- didn't like the way GW handled it is just as grimy as what GW did to them. Now instead of me thinking GW is a gakky company, I think my FLGS is too. Can you imagine a new codex getting released and a store banning it like this? A store banning the use of this book is arguably -worse- than what GW did, because GW just cut you out of the loop on a direct product release, my store is telling me I can't use the latest rules for the gaming system I play.

Needless to say, I will not be patronizing my local store anymore. If GW upsets them so much, the ethical thing to do is stop carrying GW product--if all the stores "banning" DFtS did this, GW would notice. But they won't. Why? Then the stores would lose money. They'd much rather hurt the customer here. And I only have room in this game system for one company trying to screw me.

 blackdiamond wrote:
Talking to my GW rep:

These are NOT available for retailers to order, period. Customer service is incorrect.

800 copies were printed. 1000 were sold. Despite FAQs and such pointing to this book, they were surprised at the demand and have had a pretty big negative response.

The book will be reprinted. There is no plans he knows of to make it widely available.

Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520

925-681-0600
www.blackdiamondgames.com
blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com

Bolded for emphasis.

800 copies? Seriously?

 skrulnik wrote:


800 copies? Seriously?

Really struck me strange as well--I was assuming that was a typo with a missed zero.

Kroothawk was right; GW really thought this was a stopgap measure and nothing more.

Did GW really think that poorly of its own product to make only 800, or is this simply one more way to limit legal rule obtaining much to he chagrin of the demanding customers? Honestly, GW cannot win one way or the other.

Hey everyone, look what those craaaazy kids at GW are up to! Tune in for their crazy antics as they forget to add a zero on a purchase order, you'll laugh out loud when you hear little Tommy say, "Oh noes, da innernetz gonna be mad 'bout dis one!"

Wow, only a print run of 800, surely it would have been cheaper in a run of 5000, see what that sold then do a second and perhaps third run of 5000. No way can it be economical to make such a limited run.

Or the GW rep got the number wrong or lied to save face.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it is true, it would explain a lot. GW just didn't think many people would want one so did a small lot and left it direct to save on cost.

i buy printing a lot where i work. i do everything from copy shop stuff to 400,000 runs in china. I find it highly unlikely they print that few. the cost per piece would be astronomical. I mean even at 1000 copies it would not be cost effective to do. per unit. I mean printing 5000 maybe i would think as a preliminary order and then 5000 in 2 months for inventory. I can not believe a multi million dollar company would only order 800-1000 of a book.

Unless you want it to sell out and you most likely have a plan to get it back in stock in a week or two. that way you do a few things. You can tell you shareholder "our books always sell out" and you create a artificial need for people to urgently but the NEXT book that comes out because all the preorders constantly sell out.

The other thing my company does is order say 5000 units of something. The supplier rushes the first 1000 to us so we can get it listed and start selling them while they finish the rest of the order. Sometimes we have small quanitites flewn over from china or taiwan and the remainder of the order is shipped over by boat for cost saving. I could understand that approach for say 5000 books.

I am not saying this is what they did though. It is GW and they also seem to do things backwards.

Our products are constantly getting ripped off by chinese vendors and copy cats but you know how we combat it, we make a better product. Hell people in china order from us because we supply quality and have a strong warranty even though they might be made in there own freaking country.

Now GW has the, for the most part, the quality there. I just dont get why they make it so inaccessible. Seriously i dont understand why they don't have sales to move items or multiple unit discounts.Or even direct to the FLGS specials.

Walls wrote:
Oh, GW... screwing over retailers day after day. And by proxy, screwing over the customers. I recently opened a comic/gaming/hobby store and had the ... ahem... please of dealing with GW. Their motto in their handbook is honesty, integrity and courage. Yet they didn't have the courage to call me back about my account and when they did, lied. They can come to me now... at which point I'll say no. Privateer, Corvus Belli, Wyrd... all wonderful companies which are getting my utmost support.

While the fires are hot I should really post about my whole ordeal.

Regardless, GW is doing a HUGE disservice and are being down right crooked in their dealings with this release. Can't wait until the next couple releases when prices go even higher and there are more and more people leaving for other (better) companies and their games.

Because. You do all your ordering directly from these companies, right? Oh wait. You don't? Huh. How about that.

All this "they lied" nonsense is pure conjecture and speculation, and quite frankly the chances the CS folks had the "real" answer right away is slim to none.

In regards to your "dealings with GW" and setting up an account: I'd wager you had to go through an account rep and if that's the case, it's no surprise. Those guys are stretched ridiculously thin handling orders that, quite frankly, should be automated. If you didn't actual speak to an account manager, then please, let's hear your tale of woe.

There's nothing "downright crooked' going on and the hyperbole from some of you is ridiculous.

Well Steve 2112, we all wonder that.

I have personally seen printers go from hardback to paperpack overnight and whereas hardback binding is laborious and expensive, a softcover book is waiting on the printery to catch-up.

Soooo... Now the book is sold out and according to the FAQs, you must refer to the book for the rules but you can't get the book so your 'best model scifi aircraft in the world' can't be used in the fething game they made it for?

Tell me, learned folks, how is GW working to a carefully set out business plan that we poor schmucks don't understand? Cos from where I'm sitting this looks like it was orchestrated by the fething Ant Hill Mob...

Careful MGS, someone might call you a hater!


*looks around for Kanluen*


I still have the WD in which they told us that the switch to plastics was going to allow for less expense so we could build bigger armies faster. Still waiting on that.

While these may not be 'lies', per se, there is a lot of spin on things from GW. Is this the teacup ride at Disneyland?

xraytango wrote:
Careful MGS, someone might call you a hater!


*looks around for Kanluen*


I still have the WD in which they told us that the switch to plastics was going to allow for less expense so we could build bigger armies faster. Still waiting on that.

While these may not be 'lies', per se, there is a lot of spin on things from GW. Is this the teacup ride at Disneyland?

There's a mountain of difference between a lie and a "whoops we didn't really think this product through very well we need a response."

Which is what I'd wager has happened. GW has been known to be under prepared of product launches before.....

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Tell me, learned folks, how is GW working to a carefully set out business plan that we poor schmucks don't understand?

Limited initial run drives up demand? XBox, PS2, iPhone, etc. all did the same thing.

 Breotan wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Tell me, learned folks, how is GW working to a carefully set out business plan that we poor schmucks don't understand?

Limited initial run drives up demand? XBox, PS2, iPhone, etc. all did the same thing.

I guess I'm just "lucky" that I have the WD issue that was "so scarce".....

I guess I'm fortunate my electronic versions of the codeces have the rules auto updated. Huh.

Indarys wrote:

No one is saying GW is in the right here, buddy. But two wrongs don't make a right, and stores writing a whiny email (like my FLGS did this morning) telling me I can't use the new book because -they- didn't like the way GW handled it is just as grimy as what GW did to them. Now instead of me thinking GW is a gakky company, I think my FLGS is too. Can you imagine a new codex getting released and a store banning it like this? A store banning the use of this book is arguably -worse- than what GW did, because GW just cut you out of the loop on a direct product release, my store is telling me I can't use the latest rules for the gaming system I play.

Needless to say, I will not be patronizing my local store anymore. If GW upsets them so much, the ethical thing to do is stop carrying GW product--if all the stores "banning" DFtS did this, GW would notice. But they won't. Why? Then the stores would lose money. They'd much rather hurt the customer here. And I only have room in this game system for one company trying to screw me.

I think Mikhaila is just frustrated with the developments regarding GWs announcement policy. If he sells the volume he claims he does, trying to plan on guess work is a nightmare. I can understand his frustration and I think this was just a "OH I GIVE UP!" moment.

A regional manager at the Skull of Thrones told people there the policy was due to New Line Cinema's Hobbit license. Given they mentioned in the annual report last year that this secrecy had no apparent impact on sales. So probably in typical managerial thought, if a little secrecy is good, a lot of secrecy should be better.

As for the direct only, this seems to play into the trend I have noticed in the last couple months. The larger than normal price hikes and speedup in releases. The Hobbit game likely did not meet the numbers GW expected and now they are scrambling to increase revenues before the half. If they don't meet their expectations, their stock will be punished.

 Breotan wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Tell me, learned folks, how is GW working to a carefully set out business plan that we poor schmucks don't understand?

Limited initial run drives up demand? XBox, PS2, iPhone, etc. all did the same thing.

It also alienates your fanbase, and make no mistake, veterans are the base.

I guarantee you that the majority of players in these here United States are in the 18-35, 25-40 brackets as opposed to the GW sales targets of 11-15 year olds. If we don't like it or if we don't promote it we can effectively have an impact on others not playing / buying.

A limited run book is not the same nor as ubiquitous as an X-box, PS, or iPhone especially as there is a thriving secondary market for such things. New X-box game? Wait a couple of weeks and it will be available used at 25% off, gaming console; same thing, iPhone will still be there as product is manufactured to meet demand, or consumer finds another equal or greater good for their money.

A limited run book that is unavailable yet still part of the rule system that you need to legally play your model serves no one and could lead to consumer alienation and loss, especially if there is a doubt as to whether that product will ever again be available. Unlike your example of consumer electronics which they will continue to produce, sell, and improve upon without any doubt as to their later availibility.

IMHO

They greatly limited the copies of space hulk that independant retailers could get, yet had ample supply for their GW stores.

One of the FLGS stores in my area was taking pre-orders for it and had ordered well over 30 copies of the game, they got in 4. Their distributor got roughly 10% of their total requests from GW. GW at the time claimed to have sold through all of their stock and couldn't provide independant retailers with more. But if you went to the local GW stores not only did they have to cover all the GW pre-orders in store they had well over an additional 100 copies PER STORE in stock. They had it in stock and on the shelf for 4-5 months after supposedly being sold out.

They intentionally shorted non GW stores to pad their numbers and drive customers to buy it at GW outlets and not at FLGS stores.