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The Tourney scene in the USA is clearly the most visible aspect of wargaming over there (especially the long term player base i suspect),

but have there been any real studies on what proportion of actuall buyers that makes up /

None of the 6 players in my gaming group plays in tournaments. So there's one anecdote.

Wow I cant even begin to understand some of the responses to this....

This is not the FLGS's trying to mess with people rather it's them trying to send a message to GW that expecting them to allow the use of rules in events they run that they aren't even able to sell the books containing those rules in their store is a little ridicous. And is just another example of GW trying to force people to pay the overblown prices they sell their product for just like the online retailers being unable to ship to Australia rubbish (which it's actually looking like it's going to be classed as a breech of our fair trade laws but hey...).

Enceladus wrote:
So much for a mass boycott, the official GW website already claims that it's run out of stock!

Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best, they do it with LE codexs and a bunch of other stuff, and in return they get to slap that "sold out" line on it to make you think there is no negativity.

Put it this way, lets say GW made 10,000 copies of death from the skies (probably only made 5000 or less), they only allocate a certain number of that to the webstore, lets say only 1000 copies, those will disappear pretty fast especially when you say "direct only" and then suddenly "holy crap its sold out!". Now every single GW sell bot can use that line make it seem like a hot item, it sounds strange I know, but GW actually make sure they have a constant flow for the GW stores first and formost, thier pre order and GW store stock is seperate from their indy retailers and webstore stock.

Also dont forget about GW employees, with their 50% discount they are pretty much going to order anything they put up, its been well know that back in the day some GW stores survived purely on their staff dumping their paycheques back in.

 Ravenous D wrote:


Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best,

Citation needed. Seems made up.

 Ravenous D wrote:
they do it with LE codexs and a bunch of other stuff, and in return they get to slap that "sold out" line on it to make you think there is no negativity.

Citation needed. Seems made up.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Put it this way, lets say GW made 10,000 copies of death from the skies (probably only made 5000 or less), they only allocate a certain number of that to the webstore, lets say only 1000 copies, those will disappear pretty fast especially when you say "direct only" and then suddenly "holy crap its sold out!". Now every single GW sell bot can use that line make it seem like a hot item, it sounds strange I know, but GW actually make sure they have a constant flow for the GW stores first and formost, thier pre order and GW store stock is seperate from their indy retailers and webstore stock.

Inflammatory. Slander. Libel. Take your pick. Citation needed.

 Ravenous D wrote:
its been well know that back in the day some GW stores survived purely on their staff dumping their paycheques back in.

Citation needed. Seems made up.

Dose anyone remember a while ago it was said something along the lines that GW doesn't want the average guy to play there game sets. I know it was a while ago and I can't remember exactly was said but maybe this is a way for them to begin the process along with the enormous price hikes and bundles that save you money. Just a thought.

the lines that GW doesn't the average guy to play there game sets.

Some words... you are missing them.

Does GW not count on the average guy to play their game sets? So they mean the average GW customer, the average wargamer, the average person between the ages of x and y.

Dunno, Alf. But the Average Gamer drinks a lot of Mountain Dew.

 kronk wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Put it this way, lets say GW made 10,000 copies of death from the skies (probably only made 5000 or less), they only allocate a certain number of that to the webstore, lets say only 1000 copies, those will disappear pretty fast especially when you say "direct only" and then suddenly "holy crap its sold out!". Now every single GW sell bot can use that line make it seem like a hot item, it sounds strange I know, but GW actually make sure they have a constant flow for the GW stores first and formost, thier pre order and GW store stock is seperate from their indy retailers and webstore stock.

Inflammatory. Slander. Libel. Take your pick. Citation needed.

How so? It's a pretty standard tactic and I've seen it happen with a few releases (such as the 40K campaign, the DV set, the Hobbit set, all of which were plugged as being sold out quickly so I should buy them now even though they are still available in store months after being sold out online)

 Frazzled wrote:

 carlosthecraven wrote:
Hi

As an FLGS gamer and customer, this decision ticks me off because it undermines the profitability of my FLGS.

I have already contacted GW customer service via e-mail expressing my ire over this decision. I intend to call on Tuesday as well.

If you are an FLGS supporter, throwing in your two cents on this unsatisfactory arrangement is worth doing. If you care, but remain silent, don't bitch when it continues.

Cheers,
Nate

If you care you don't email. You don't buy GW products any more.

I disagree. If you care you email that you aren't going to buy GW products anymore and then you stop buying from them.

If you just stop buying from them, how are they supposed to know why they buggered up? They're liable to think people are quitting because the prices are too low and just raise prices Like when video game publishers blame piracy for poor sales, ignoring the fact the game stinks, so the next game they release has more DRM which makes it even less appealing to buy because it has install limits and requires you to be always online.

It's a good idea to let companies know WHY they suck, their marketing departments will just make up whatever excuse otherwise. I'm sure if everyone who ever quit GW products sent GW a letter saying why, we might very well have a different hobby by now.

 kronk wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:


Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best,

Citation needed. Seems made up.

Your mom is a citation

Its not made up, I know for a fact they do this, they started doing it with white dwarf when they cut the print number in half.

 Alfndrate wrote:

the lines that GW doesn't the average guy to play there game sets.

Some words... you are missing them.

Does GW not count on the average guy to play their game sets? So they mean the average GW customer, the average wargamer, the average person between the ages of x and y.

Like I said it was a while ago this was said it was even discusses on dakka. I think it was said that they don't want the average person meaning that there stuff was for the richer well to do individuals. Hard to search the exact quote typing on my phone will research properly later.

Thank you for the correction hadn't noticed it before I fixed it.

Easiest way for retailers to fight back on this one is not to ban the book from tournament use, but rather to encourage PDF copies and copy printouts being legal.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:


Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best,

Citation needed. Seems made up.

Your mom is a citation

Its not made up, I know for a fact they do this, they started doing it with white dwarf when they cut the print number in half.

Pure conjecture on your part.

Perhaps it was because sales were dropping off due to poor content so they cut back on their print runs?

Claiming they are doing it to say "Hey, we sold out again" would need a citation.

 kronk wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:


Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best,

Citation needed. Seems made up.

 Ravenous D wrote:
they do it with LE codexs and a bunch of other stuff, and in return they get to slap that "sold out" line on it to make you think there is no negativity.

Citation needed. Seems made up.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Put it this way, lets say GW made 10,000 copies of death from the skies (probably only made 5000 or less), they only allocate a certain number of that to the webstore, lets say only 1000 copies, those will disappear pretty fast especially when you say "direct only" and then suddenly "holy crap its sold out!". Now every single GW sell bot can use that line make it seem like a hot item, it sounds strange I know, but GW actually make sure they have a constant flow for the GW stores first and formost, thier pre order and GW store stock is seperate from their indy retailers and webstore stock.

Inflammatory. Slander. Libel. Take your pick. Citation needed.

 Ravenous D wrote:
its been well know that back in the day some GW stores survived purely on their staff dumping their paycheques back in.

Citation needed. Seems made up.

It might have been the other death from the skies thread but the number given by GW customer services was 800 copies.

800

If that isn't understocking then I don't know what is.



Also there are still 6 copies of Crusade of Fire in my local GW, but it sold out pretty quick on the website. It's more anecdotal than the last thing but my city has the 6th biggest population in Australia, I find it hard to believe that if the website was properly stocked and sold out there would still be that many copies in the store.

 jonolikespie wrote:


It might have been the other death from the skies thread but the number given by GW customer services was 800 copies.

800

If that isn't understocking then I don't know what is.

Maybe. Or, as I've said in this thread and the other, GW has their heads up their butt and completely fethed this one up.

 jonolikespie wrote:

It might have been the other death from the skies thread but the number given by GW customer services was 800 copies.

800

If that isn't understocking then I don't know what is.

It was a post from the FLGS owner (Black Diamond?) quoting his GW sales rep. We don't know if it is a fact.

So, whats next? Are we to ban things that aren't sold in stores?

Can I not play with my digital codecies because I purchased them online? Can I not play with my collectors edition rule book because the store didn't get them? Are Sisters banned because stores can't carry them (or their rules)?

So lets also take the next logical step.
Can I not play with models that were not exclusively purchased in that store?
My friend played in a store that would not let you play with an army unless every piece for said army was purchased in that store. Even though he had purchased an entirely new army from that store, if the "old" army ever came out of the case he was asked to leave. Needless to say they're closed now. That may be a sign of things to come over BS like this.

Honestly, I think one of the best ways that FLGS can 'strike back' to begin with is to withdrawl from the partnership program. It's honestly probably not a bad business move either, as the amount of product that GW requires you to have to maintain partner status is rather crazy - and for a lot of stores where other games have become ascendant that means that they are required to carry a *lot* of dead stock. How many people would actually carry LOTR / The Hobbit when they don't even have a group that plays it in the area?

I think one of the reasons why PP stands out to some local game shops is they do not carry their main line products only on an online store - everything is offered through local hobby shops, and it can be a huge boost to business when WM/H kicks off in an area. Wyrd and Corvis Belli do have online storefronts, but generally also don't have the same presence as PP or GW, and in Corvis Belli's case you're ordering from Europe.

Overall though, from what I've generally see boycotting GW is rarely a sink or swim move for any FLGS. What's keeping them afloat now is Magic the Gathering, and that looks to be the case for a good while now.

So, whats next? Are we to ban things that aren't sold in stores?

Can I not play with my digital codecies because I purchased them online? Can I not play with my collectors edition rule book because the store didn't get them? Are Sisters banned because stores can't carry them (or their rules)?

So lets also take the next logical step.
Can I not play with models that were not exclusively purchased in that store?
My friend played in a store that would not let you play with an army unless every piece for said army was purchased in that store. Even though he had purchased an entirely new army from that store, if the "old" army ever came out of the case he was asked to leave. Needless to say they're closed now. That may be a sign of things to come over BS like this.

Your friend being banned from playing with an old army or stuff that wasn't bought in the store, are extreme situations and I can't imagine that many FLGS would be carrying on like this. However I think they have to do something. How many on this site have moaned about GW and not done anything about?

Short disclamer: Yes they are a business and they are there to make money, but they have been taking advantage of their customers for a long time now. This is done as they know they can get new mugs and that a lot of players have too much invested in the hobby to jump ship. End of disclaimer.

FLGS owners have had a rough time now for quite awhile. Stuff like sliding wholesale discounts, restricted stock and holding back on releaases. As I've already mentioned, a good FLGS allows GW stock to be sold from a bricks & morter store that they don'y have to staff or pay the bills for. From other posts it would also appear that they use them for testing the waters before opening a GW store. So again a FLGS does all the work and GW walks in to a ready made customer base. So for the FLGS to now say to GW "screw you" is a fair response. I really hopes it gains momentum and bites them.

Either have the guts to maintain a retail division or drop it completely and rely on FLGS.

Thankfully Foda's FLGS horror story is limited and definitely doesn't seem to be the case. If that were true at more places, I wouldn't be able to play but a smattering of the models I own.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Enceladus wrote:
So much for a mass boycott, the official GW website already claims that it's run out of stock!

Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best, they do it with LE codexs and a bunch of other stuff, and in return they get to slap that "sold out" line on it to make you think there is no negativity.

Put it this way, lets say GW made 10,000 copies of death from the skies (probably only made 5000 or less), they only allocate a certain number of that to the webstore, lets say only 1000 copies, those will disappear pretty fast especially when you say "direct only" and then suddenly "holy crap its sold out!". Now every single GW sell bot can use that line make it seem like a hot item, it sounds strange I know, but GW actually make sure they have a constant flow for the GW stores first and formost, thier pre order and GW store stock is seperate from their indy retailers and webstore stock..

I can personally attest to the fact GW has thrown away whole pallets of product while claiming "sold out". I can't remember this ever happening in Baltimore, but it did in Memphis several times with new releases. The one that springs to mind immediately was the release of Dark Heresy. Myself and two others (from shipping) were throwing out all the damages/returns when the old manager Doug P wheeled over a pallet and told us to toss them as well. about 40 boxes filled with Dark Heresy.

It could have been in error, but I doubt it.

 Wolfstan wrote:

So, whats next? Are we to ban things that aren't sold in stores?

Can I not play with my digital codecies because I purchased them online? Can I not play with my collectors edition rule book because the store didn't get them? Are Sisters banned because stores can't carry them (or their rules)?

So lets also take the next logical step.
Can I not play with models that were not exclusively purchased in that store?
My friend played in a store that would not let you play with an army unless every piece for said army was purchased in that store. Even though he had purchased an entirely new army from that store, if the "old" army ever came out of the case he was asked to leave. Needless to say they're closed now. That may be a sign of things to come over BS like this.

Your friend being banned from playing with an old army or stuff that wasn't bought in the store, are extreme situations and I can't imagine that many FLGS would be carrying on like this. However I think they have to do something. How many on this site have moaned about GW and not done anything about?

Short disclamer: Yes they are a business and they are there to make money, but they have been taking advantage of their customers for a long time now. This is done as they know they can get new mugs and that a lot of players have too much invested in the hobby to jump ship. End of disclaimer.

FLGS owners have had a rough time now for quite awhile. Stuff like sliding wholesale discounts, restricted stock and holding back on releaases. As I've already mentioned, a good FLGS allows GW stock to be sold from a bricks & morter store that they don'y have to staff or pay the bills for. From other posts it would also appear that they use them for testing the waters before opening a GW store. So again a FLGS does all the work and GW walks in to a ready made customer base. So for the FLGS to now say to GW "screw you" is a fair response. I really hopes it gains momentum and bites them.

Either have the guts to maintain a retail division or drop it completely and rely on FLGS.

The thing is, though, the FLGS repsonse is to punish the customers and hope that they get mad at GW.

prplehippo wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

Enceladus wrote:
So much for a mass boycott, the official GW website already claims that it's run out of stock!

Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best, they do it with LE codexs and a bunch of other stuff, and in return they get to slap that "sold out" line on it to make you think there is no negativity.

Put it this way, lets say GW made 10,000 copies of death from the skies (probably only made 5000 or less), they only allocate a certain number of that to the webstore, lets say only 1000 copies, those will disappear pretty fast especially when you say "direct only" and then suddenly "holy crap its sold out!". Now every single GW sell bot can use that line make it seem like a hot item, it sounds strange I know, but GW actually make sure they have a constant flow for the GW stores first and formost, thier pre order and GW store stock is seperate from their indy retailers and webstore stock..

I can personally attest to the fact GW has thrown away whole pallets of product while claiming "sold out". I can't remember this ever happening in Baltimore, but it did in Memphis several times with new releases. The one that springs to mind immediately was the release of Dark Heresy. Myself and two others (from shipping) were throwing out all the damages/returns when the old manager Doug P wheeled over a pallet and told us to toss them as well. about 40 boxes filled with Dark Heresy.

It could have been in error, but I doubt it.

Ah to bad I don't live there or I would have gone dumpster diving that day. Had an flags catch fire near me. Some dork left a space heater on in the back room >.<. Any way they had a lot of the old metal minis in there. The models were fine they just had smoke damage on the packaging. Couldn't sell them though be user of insurance. Doh, would have totally chased after the garbage truck for those models had I been there that day.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:


Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best,

Citation needed. Seems made up.

Your mom is a citation

Its not made up, I know for a fact they do this, they started doing it with white dwarf when they cut the print number in half.

Ah, well as long as someone on the internet "knows for a fact they do this" then thats all square with me.
No evidence required.



or not.

 RuneGrey wrote:
Honestly, I think one of the best ways that FLGS can 'strike back' to begin with is to withdrawl from the partnership program. It's honestly probably not a bad business move either, as the amount of product that GW requires you to have to maintain partner status is rather crazy - and for a lot of stores where other games have become ascendant that means that they are required to carry a *lot* of dead stock. How many people would actually carry LOTR / The Hobbit when they don't even have a group that plays it in the area?

I think one of the reasons why PP stands out to some local game shops is they do not carry their main line products only on an online store - everything is offered through local hobby shops, and it can be a huge boost to business when WM/H kicks off in an area. Wyrd and Corvis Belli do have online storefronts, but generally also don't have the same presence as PP or GW, and in Corvis Belli's case you're ordering from Europe.

Overall though, from what I've generally see boycotting GW is rarely a sink or swim move for any FLGS. What's keeping them afloat now is Magic the Gathering, and that looks to be the case for a good while now.

GWs demands for the partnership program makes it seem like a pyramid scheme. Even if you manage to sell X dollars of LotR crap you have to replace it with X more dollars of LotR crap. It's a guarenteed sale for them even if you'll never sell it. If your stores player base is 98% 40k and 2% Fantasy and 0% LotR you get boned really hard having to waste space on your shelves for stuff you never or not likely to sell. The shop couldn't even sell the LotR stuff for 75% off. Just a few pieces to the players that are good at moding.

Goat wrote:If your stores player base is 98% 40k and 2% Fantasy and 0% LotR you get boned really hard having to waste space on your shelves for stuff you never or not likely to sell. The shop couldn't even sell the LotR stuff for 75% off. Just a few pieces to the players that are good at moding.

Mixing LotR and other lines makes Baby Jervis cry!

 Ravenous D wrote:


Its not made up, I know for a fact they do this, they started doing it with white dwarf when they cut the print number in half.

The reality is Ravenous doesn't really know. He has an idea that may or may not be the truth. His idea fits his malicious image of GW so he runs with it. He can't prove what he says and will claim that he used to work for the company therefor he's completely familiar with their inner workings, despite admitedly being a regular red shirt who wouldn't be privvy to these decisions.

edited.

 wowsmash wrote:


Ah to bad I don't live there or I would have gone dumpster diving that day. Had an flags catch fire near me. Some dork left a space heater on in the back room >.<. Any way they had a lot of the old metal minis in there. The models were fine they just had smoke damage on the packaging. Couldn't sell them though be user of insurance. Doh, would have totally chased after the garbage truck for those models had I been there that day.

You'd have to live in Memphis.

Back when I worked there a couple of guys in shipping had a racket going where they would accidentally damage product they wanted and put it on the damages pallet. When the pallet was emptied at the end of the day into the compacter they wouldn't hit the "compact" button so the product remained intact. After work that same day they'd wait for the truck to come and haul it away to the dump and follow it. You could pay a fee to go into the dump to salvage. They'd ask where truck number "X" emptied and go there to pick up everything that was thrown out, including some molds.

I don't know what they did with all that stuff, likely they Ebay'd it. I remember one day 15 boxes of those limited "Imperial Cities" terrain set were thrown out, they got all of those.

You guys would shudder at the sheer amount of product that gets trashed every week at the Memphis GW HQ. I was told that it would cost more to recycle the plastics and metal than it would to just throw it out.

At least back in Baltimore they used to have Bob's Bargain Basement sales for staff. We used to be able to buy damaged product at a huge discount. Regiment boxes IIRC, were $5 each, books $2.etc.