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 BlueDagger wrote:
Easiest way for retailers to fight back on this one is not to ban the book from tournament use, but rather to encourage PDF copies and copy printouts being legal.

Then people wouldn't buy army books at the store either....

 Sigvatr wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Easiest way for retailers to fight back on this one is not to ban the book from tournament use, but rather to encourage PDF copies and copy printouts being legal.

Then people wouldn't buy army books at the store either....

There's also probably a legal grey area in businesses encouraging people to break copyrights. A less legally hazy approach would be to encourage player sharing or to have a set of store copies to browse.

I don't quite understand all the hate for this product.

People were complaining that the rules for their flyers were not available because they could not purchase the relevant White Dwarf updates. So, after being inundated with these complaints, Games Workshop decides to release the rules for these flyers so people have access to them - at the same time they might as well update some of the old flyers. Sounds fine to me. People get access to the rules they previously didn't have access to and GW gets to put out a niche product for these people who have been complaining for rules-access.

Yes, they could have released the rules for free. But, GW is a business and they say an entirely reasonable opportunity to put together a decent product and release it - with some added content, so that people might want to buy it for more than just access to the WD rules.

Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only. I understand that it sucks for independent retailers to not have access to new products, but this is really supposed to be a marginal one. Video game retailers don't ban certain companies for only selling marginal DLC content directly. I can understand these retailers being upset at GW, but there response is a little melodramatic.

I may be wrong about my opinions regarding the business and retail, given that I don't have access to actual numbers regarding expected sales, production costs, schedules, etc, but I definitely feel like people should be happy this product is now available. People complained that the rules weren't available - now they are!

Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only. I understand that it sucks for independent retailers to not have access to new products, but this is really supposed to be a marginal one. Video game retailers don't ban certain companies for only selling marginal DLC content directly. I can understand these retailers being upset at GW, but there response is a little melodramatic.

I agree with you there. As a stop gap, there is no point in really putting out a full release book. Especially one that doesn't actually add anything like a second wave of flyers or stuff to counter them. In reality it's just GW's way of collecting all they've done so far and selling it in a manner that means there isn't as much stock and the FLGS won't have to worry about carrying something that likely won't sell that much anyhow.

 Watchersinthedark wrote:

Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only. I understand that it sucks for independent retailers to not have access to new products, but this is really supposed to be a marginal one. Video game retailers don't ban certain companies for only selling marginal DLC content directly. I can understand these retailers being upset at GW, but there response is a little melodramatic.

I agree with you there. As a stop gap, there is no point in really putting out a full release book. Especially one that doesn't actually add anything like a second wave of flyers or stuff to counter them. In reality it's just GW's way of collecting all they've done so far and selling it in a manner that means there isn't as much stock and the FLGS won't have to worry about carrying something that likely won't sell that much anyhow.

Why bother going through the whole rigmarole to begin with, then? If it's supposed to be so marginal and insignificant, just post a PDF with the rules.

JB_Man wrote:


Why bother going through the whole rigmarole to begin with, then? If it's supposed to be so marginal and insignificant, just post a PDF with the rules.

Because people will pay for it so why not take the money?

JB_Man wrote:

 Watchersinthedark wrote:

Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only. I understand that it sucks for independent retailers to not have access to new products, but this is really supposed to be a marginal one. Video game retailers don't ban certain companies for only selling marginal DLC content directly. I can understand these retailers being upset at GW, but there response is a little melodramatic.

I agree with you there. As a stop gap, there is no point in really putting out a full release book. Especially one that doesn't actually add anything like a second wave of flyers or stuff to counter them. In reality it's just GW's way of collecting all they've done so far and selling it in a manner that means there isn't as much stock and the FLGS won't have to worry about carrying something that likely won't sell that much anyhow.

Why bother going through the whole rigmarole to begin with, then? If it's supposed to be so marginal and insignificant, just post a PDF with the rules.

Because as the project starts to be put together, it starts to look like it could make some money. Just like with the Skyrim DLC - each of those DLC projects started as side projects from the game designers, which actually turned into something that could make them some money.

Another thing I didn't mention is that shipping costs to independent retailers would make a niche product release like this one cost prohibitive - give that GW foots the shipping cost (am I correct on that?).

 Sigvatr wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Easiest way for retailers to fight back on this one is not to ban the book from tournament use, but rather to encourage PDF copies and copy printouts being legal.

Then people wouldn't buy army books at the store either....

Yep, and it decreases sales for the indy retailers.

A far, far better way is to make sure they are stocking many other ranges and get lots of GW game tourneys up and running with stand in armies full of mantic, avatars of war, gamezone miniatures, warlord etc.

Put expertly painted and converted armies of nonGW minis designed into armies to play GW games into display cabinets.

You want to punt GW in the kidneys, show them your customer base enjoying their games with other people's hardware. Your store, your rules. Oh, wait, perhaps they'll get rid of your prize support for the tourn.... oh yeah, they already did that. Perhaps you'll be subjected to poor retailer suppor... oh yeah, did that as well...

Put a mantic corporation army done as imperial guard in a case, perhaps with a price breakdown for the customer to see what they'd save, and a sign reminding them that this army will be welcome at your store's events.

rollawaythestone wrote:

JB_Man wrote:

 Watchersinthedark wrote:

Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only. I understand that it sucks for independent retailers to not have access to new products, but this is really supposed to be a marginal one. Video game retailers don't ban certain companies for only selling marginal DLC content directly. I can understand these retailers being upset at GW, but there response is a little melodramatic.

I agree with you there. As a stop gap, there is no point in really putting out a full release book. Especially one that doesn't actually add anything like a second wave of flyers or stuff to counter them. In reality it's just GW's way of collecting all they've done so far and selling it in a manner that means there isn't as much stock and the FLGS won't have to worry about carrying something that likely won't sell that much anyhow.

Why bother going through the whole rigmarole to begin with, then? If it's supposed to be so marginal and insignificant, just post a PDF with the rules.

Because as the project starts to be put together, it starts to look like it could make some money. Just like with the Skyrim DLC - each of those DLC projects started as side projects from the game designers, which actually turned into something that could make them some money.

Another thing I didn't mention is that shipping costs to independent retailers would make a niche product release like this one cost prohibitive - give that GW foots the shipping cost (am I correct on that?).

Product is shipped to most indies every week, a new SKU is not some aberration that cannot be handled by existing logistics.

Product is shipped to most indies every week, a new SKU is not some aberration that cannot be handled by existing logistics

Yeah that is true. But if you look at the site, the book is already sold out meaning it was another one of those limited run books. If you're only printing 1000 to 5000 books, then selling them in house is the most economical way to do that. Though in all reality GW does need to start communicating more with it's retailers and working with them to prevent this kind of anger.

When the CSM and DA dexes dropped my FLGS tried to order a limited ed for me but couldn't because GW won't allow them to purchase them at the merchant discount and resell them. While this does mean GW isn't losing money on the limited run books (though they may very well be) they could have worked with the FLGS to help them understand why and maybe even come up with some sort of compromise that would have made everything better.

 Watchersinthedark wrote:

Product is shipped to most indies every week, a new SKU is not some aberration that cannot be handled by existing logistics

Yeah that is true. But if you look at the site, the book is already sold out meaning it was another one of those limited run books. If you're only printing 1000 to 5000 books, then selling them in house is the most economical way to do that. Though in all reality GW does need to start communicating more with it's retailers and working with them to prevent this kind of anger.

When the CSM and DA dexes dropped my FLGS tried to order a limited ed for me but couldn't because GW won't allow them to purchase them at the merchant discount and resell them. While this does mean GW isn't losing money on the limited run books (though they may very well be) they could have worked with the FLGS to help them understand why and maybe even come up with some sort of compromise that would have made everything better.

Yes, we used to inform GW in advance of release how many of each product we wanted for the first few weeks. I am sure that information is useful for their planning.

Its interesting, I have a Lone Star Comics near my house (a pretty big chain here with above 15 stores in cities across Texas) and they dropped their entire GW line. Because of their location being so close to a major college, I assume its because they make a lot more money in their novelty items and board games. Its become too expensive, they may be the first war game, but they won't be the last.

 mikhaila wrote:
...

It takes a huge amount of noise to actually make GW sit up and take notice. If no one complains, they think "See! The plan is working, time to shovel more bs onto the independent stores. What can they do?"

You're right in general, but I think that even when people make noise, GW reacts negatively anyway.

No noise = "See! The plan is working, time to shovel more bs onto the independent stores. What can they do?"

Noise = "The customers/FLGS are WRONG! Stupid people buying/selling our product... CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALALA!!!!"

GW has shown itself to have a phenomenal capacity for ignoring real problems and legitimate complaints from any and all constituencies, from players to game store owners. The only people who seem to make out well are the management, who, as seems de rigeur in the corporate world today, get golden parachutes while everyone else who has an interest in the company's success get gakked on.

-C6

 Crimson wrote:

JB_Man wrote:


Why bother going through the whole rigmarole to begin with, then? If it's supposed to be so marginal and insignificant, just post a PDF with the rules.

Because people will pay for it so why not take the money?

Because it will generate negative reactions, it may result in some customers rejecting the entire product line, it creates an additional cost to some customers and it changes the unspoken contract between the producer and the consumer.

rollawaythestone wrote:
I don't quite understand all the hate for this product.

People were complaining that the rules for their flyers were not available because they could not purchase the relevant White Dwarf updates. So, after being inundated with these complaints, Games Workshop decides to release the rules for these flyers so people have access to them - at the same time they might as well update some of the old flyers. Sounds fine to me. People get access to the rules they previously didn't have access to and GW gets to put out a niche product for these people who have been complaining for rules-access.

So you honestly don't understand why someone who just needs the Storm Talon rules might be upset at having to pay $48 plus shipping instead of $11 for them?

Yes, they could have released the rules for free.

They could also have released them as a paid download. 'Free' or '$50 book' are not the only two options here...

Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only.

A PDF download would have committed even fewer resources... and would have been available to everyone with an internet connection.
For that matter, just running off another run of the relevant white dwarf and making it available as a backissue would have also committed fewer resources.

but I definitely feel like people should be happy this product is now available. People complained that the rules weren't available - now they are!

Except it's not, is it? On account of being sold out and so no longer available until they print more...

yeah,

 insaniak wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:
Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only.

A PDF download would have committed even fewer resources... and would have been available to everyone with an internet connection.
For that matter, just running off another run of the relevant white dwarf and making it available as a backissue would have also committed fewer resources...

It might have even made GW just as much money as this print run if people are rushing out to buy models to use with their new free PDF.
With next to no extra effort.

Panic...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


A far, far better way is to make sure they are stocking many other ranges and get lots of GW game tourneys up and running with stand in armies full of mantic, avatars of war, gamezone miniatures, warlord etc.

I don't know about that. My gaming group pretty much refuses to buy into other game systems. A couple saw AT-43 fall apart and now view anything outside Warmachine as milk just waiting to go bad. I'd love to get into Dust Tactics, but really don't want to buy two armies and beg people to play.

As crappy as GW's retailer support/attitude is it's the thing I can get a game with minimal fuss.

 Moopy wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


A far, far better way is to make sure they are stocking many other ranges and get lots of GW game tourneys up and running with stand in armies full of mantic, avatars of war, gamezone miniatures, warlord etc.

I don't know about that. My gaming group pretty much refuses to buy into other game systems. A couple saw AT-43 fall apart and now view anything outside Warmachine as milk just waiting to go bad.

I'm saying build armies for GW games from other ranges.

 Goliath wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:


Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best,

Citation needed. Seems made up.

Your mom is a citation

Its not made up, I know for a fact they do this, they started doing it with white dwarf when they cut the print number in half.

Ah, well as long as someone on the internet "knows for a fact they do this" then thats all square with me.
No evidence required.



or not.

Yeah but it wouldnt matter to you even if I posted evidence, you white knight for GW on things where they are clearly in the wrong.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


I'm saying build armies for GW games from other ranges.

Ooohh! Gotcha. That might work. There's a ton of nice sculpts out there.

@Ravenous: More citations, less argumentative fallacies please.

Zoned wrote:


The reality is Ravenous doesn't really know. He has an idea that may or may not be the truth. His idea fits his malicious image of GW so he runs with it. He can't prove what he says and will claim that he used to work for the company therefor he's completely familiar with their inner workings, despite admitedly being a regular red shirt who wouldn't be privvy to these decisions.

Of course, clearly you know all about being a red shirt and the people you meet inside the company.

Listen, I congratulate GW whenever they do something good, but I am also the same guy that will jump on them when they do something terrible, and it just so happens that the company that you think can do no wrong tends to make a lot of stupid and border line malicious choices and want to do nothing about their public image. Thier motto is "integrity, honesty and courage", and they are showing none of those qualities, and guess what? Some of us know GW can be better and have been better, so sor-f'ing-ry if I actually want them to change for the better rather then people like you that would just like for things to get worse and do nothing about it other then laying down and taking it.

Here's the realtiy, they have made rules for free for years when they are mistaken or need to stop gap, they have made better books with more content, and they didnt retailers, and you're going to sit there and say everything is fine and that we should shut up about it? Good job, pal, you're part of the problem.

 insaniak wrote:
They could also have released them as a paid download. 'Free' or '$50 book' are not the only two options here...

Earlier when I posted I'd pay for a reasonably priced PDF like other companies do, I was flat out called a thief, so good luck with that line of argument.

- Edited by insaniak. Please keep it on topic-

rollawaythestone wrote:
I don't quite understand all the hate for this product.

People were complaining that the rules for their flyers were not available because they could not purchase the relevant White Dwarf updates. So, after being inundated with these complaints, Games Workshop decides to release the rules for these flyers so people have access to them - at the same time they might as well update some of the old flyers. Sounds fine to me. People get access to the rules they previously didn't have access to and GW gets to put out a niche product for these people who have been complaining for rules-access.

Yes, they could have released the rules for free. But, GW is a business and they say an entirely reasonable opportunity to put together a decent product and release it - with some added content, so that people might want to buy it for more than just access to the WD rules.

Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only. I understand that it sucks for independent retailers to not have access to new products, but this is really supposed to be a marginal one. Video game retailers don't ban certain companies for only selling marginal DLC content directly. I can understand these retailers being upset at GW, but there response is a little melodramatic.

I may be wrong about my opinions regarding the business and retail, given that I don't have access to actual numbers regarding expected sales, production costs, schedules, etc, but I definitely feel like people should be happy this product is now available. People complained that the rules weren't available - now they are!

The hate is coming from the access to the said product.

Long story short- You can't get the book from the LGS, friendly or not. GW has made it, by the OP's find- a get it from GW only book.

Miniatures gaming is a community sport. If you don't have a community, you have no game. And while I can see that you only look at it through "GW as a business" eyes, the point here that is the issue of contention is that GW has removed gaming from thier said stores, reduced distribution or made such distribution so taxing that it is beginning to be less and less attractive to a LGS (Friendly or not) to try to work within the ever shifting environment of GW's Local Game store support. As for melodramatic, it is melodramatic on both sides of the coin.
Take yourself out of siding on this issue and look at the big picture of the meta-gaming that it is going to develop over time, because THAT is where you as the "Loyal customer" are squarly setting. The metagame will change, because fewer people will buy the book, or have access to the book that contains rules to a unit/ model that you have to pay for to play the game. Bottom line up front on that is that it is now then made an incomplete product, and you have to fork over twice as much for the same model simply to field the unit/ model.

First, you remove access to the product, and increase a price on it. ( you can only buy the book through thier website, or thier store.)
second, make anyone else who distributes your product inconvenient to the point where your game is only going to be distributed through the company store.
Third, make the product incomplete, so you have to continue to come back to the company store for additional products/ content.

Rinse, repeat. (It is bottom feeding at its best.)


Yesterday, it was FW products, IA books,Today, it looks like th flyer book. Tommorrow, it might be special characters, or land raiders/ heavy tanks.

The point is that "GW as a business" is removing the business from the description and attempting to block FLG store access. Thereby keeping you, the "Loyal customer" pointed to the "One man store" model and buy the lost tomb at infernal prices. ( By the way, how far and how much will you actually pay for a book? GW will find out.)

The complaints are valid issues on the table, in that they are questioning the future of the service/ business/ game.

Please read through the thread for the dig and dags that are continueing to crop up between the side taking, because at the end of the day- The action from BOTH sides is suicidal to the whole, and it is YOUR issue as a miniatures game player or GW miniatures game player, if you want to continue to play the game, or any game for that matter. ( First GW tries this, then Priveteer Press no doubt follows suit.... Then Corvus Bell, then Mantic, then the indipendents... then another, then another...)

It is in the long run about access.

 insaniak wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Can I say this is an insulting scam to valued customers? So for me trading in a current edition rulebook, I can get 20$ off a 50$ Starter set?

$20 for a second hand rulebook seems like a reasonable price to me... It's not much less than I would expect to get if I sold it on eBay, and you're never going to get as much for a trade-in (for any product) as it is actually worth, since the store still needs to make a profit when they sell it on.

"since the store still needs to make a profit"

They NEED to make a profit? If they were really committed to their ideals, they'd be willing to break even, or even take a small los up-front to move a customer to another product line that has better margins over the long haul.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackdiamond wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
Wait. When I read the 1st post I understood it as that these stores were banning the rules from use in their tournaments, but are they also banning it's use from pick-up play?

That's up to individual stores. I know Pat considers the book contraband and doesn't wand to see it in his store.

I'm just saying not for organized play, which means open gaming is fine. Heck, you can play little green army men during our open gaming, if you want.

Also, easy solution to this? Move this book into another order category, even a direct sales item makes it available to stores, albeit it at a poor discount. I would lift my ban if they would throw us a bone.

If you feel this strongly about it, is Black Diamond Games going to stop ordering from GW at all? Will you skip the next month or two of ordering from GW, to send a message?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackdiamond wrote:
"But you are making your customers hostages with your actions which seems rude and would turn off customers."

I can certainly see that now.

This is something that seemed like a minor thing, like banning a Forge World book. Now it seems to have a significance that wasn't fully understood (mostly because GW kept it a secret from us). The last thing I would want is to offend our customers, which it seems I've done tremendously well today. It would have been better to have simply dropped all 40K events or made an inventory decision, not that I plan to do those things yet. That's a more traditional retail way of solving problems with suppliers. I would certainly like to walk this one back, but I also see it as a direct attack from Games Workshop that can't be ignored.

Well there's a simple solution; don't ignore it. Have Black Diamond Games stop carrying Games Workshop product completelty, and offer trade-ins for Warmachine. Banning a book doesn't do very much

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Well after this move from GW and the leaks from the daemons release, I'd suggest retailers just stop carrying GW at all. Until they stop their money grab with low quality productions.

@MGS

Building armies for GW from other ranges is good for the customer. It might not be as good for the store. Like it or not the mark up on GW products means that if someone built an IG army from Mantic Corporation dudes then the store is going to make 1/3 to 1/2 as much from their customer. That impacts the stores bottom line pretty significantly. Basically stores would have to move twice as much product to get to the same place.

Just pointing it out. It's one of the reasons a local store doesn't carry Mantic in fact. I do think that the way GW handled this update in regards to it's independent stockists was poor.

 insaniak wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Can I say this is an insulting scam to valued customers? So for me trading in a current edition rulebook, I can get 20$ off a 50$ Starter set?

$20 for a second hand rulebook seems like a reasonable price to me... It's not much less than I would expect to get if I sold it on eBay, and you're never going to get as much for a trade-in (for any product) as it is actually worth, since the store still needs to make a profit when they sell it on.

I actually recently sold my used hardcover 40k rulebook on ebay, and I got $55 for it + $10.05 shipping (I ended-up paying over $11 shipping, but oh well). Maybe if you were selling a used mini rulebook out of a starter box you should expect $20.

 chris_valera wrote:


"since the store still needs to make a profit"

They NEED to make a profit? If they were really committed to their ideals, they'd be willing to break even, or even take a small los up-front to move a customer to another product line that has better margins over the long haul.

Yeah that is kinda the point of a store. To sell something and make a profit.

Why should they take time to sell things and break even or loose money? Do store owners have bottomless piles of money that they just want to give away?

This smacks of willful ignorance. Or sarcasm. I can't tell which.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@MGS

Building armies for GW from other ranges is good for the customer. It might not be as good for the store. Like it or not the mark up on GW products means that if someone built an IG army from Mantic Corporation dudes then the store is going to make 1/3 to 1/2 as much from their customer. That impacts the stores bottom line pretty significantly. Basically stores would have to move twice as much product to get to the same place.

Just pointing it out. It's one of the reasons a local store doesn't carry Mantic in fact. I do think that the way GW handled this update in regards to it's independent stockists was poor.

The flip-side though is that lower prices encourage that extra purchasing. I myself have bought Reaper sculpts for HQ choices in 40k/Fantasy that I'd never buy otherwise, so while they may have to sell more to make a up the difference in selling a GW product, it's also important to note the ways in which it compares to making no sale, which is of course rather favorably.

Also, I heard before that GW gives a smaller percentage of profits to gaming stores than other companies do (having the stores at-cost closer to MSRP than other companies) but perhaps I was mislead on this?