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 FacelessMage wrote:

 chris_valera wrote:


"since the store still needs to make a profit"

They NEED to make a profit? If they were really committed to their ideals, they'd be willing to break even, or even take a small los up-front to move a customer to another product line that has better margins over the long haul.

Yeah that is kinda the point of a store. To sell something and make a profit.

Why should they take time to sell things and break even or loose money? Do store owners have bottomless piles of money that they just want to give away?

This smacks of willful ignorance. Or sarcasm. I can't tell which.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader
It's neither. It's a strategy to get people to spend more money overall.

You see a rule book for $50 and a starter set for $50. Most people aren't going to go "all in" and buy both (plus potentially paints, brushes, basing material, how-to paint/assemble guides).
You see a rule book for $20 and a starter set for $50. Most people are much more likely to buy both.

@Lucasbuffalo

But you also need to take into account a secondary distributor which takes a small percentage. If you get your product from GW it's likely (outside of direct order) to be similarly costed. Hence the pretty universal 20% found on most products. Store owners can correct me if I'm wrong.

And yes, while it might encourage someone to pick up a few more models they might not have purchased due to price that additional sale might not make up the difference of the loss of a person building an entire army out of mantic product (example). It's not cut and dry by any means but I know a fair few stores who don't view it as a long term profitable move.

That being said models of comparable cost that can be used as GW stand-in's I do see more often. Things that are of equal or are only 5-10% different do make appearances. I expect Dreamforge to be picked up by several local stores as possible stand-ins for IG/Sisters but they aren't to much cheaper than GW and are of similar quality.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I expect Dreamforge to be picked up by several local stores as possible stand-ins for IG/Sisters but they aren't to much cheaper than GW and are of similar quality.

This does not really speak highly of the brand.

Posted before reading the spoiler, you got me Mr. Steamdragon!!!!!

But they really are spectacular and the kind of product that a store could shift people to as it wouldn't hurt the bottom line nearly as badly initially and long term could equalize.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Easiest way for retailers to fight back on this one is not to ban the book from tournament use, but rather to encourage PDF copies and copy printouts being legal.

Then people wouldn't buy army books at the store either....

There's also probably a legal grey area in businesses encouraging people to break copyrights. A less legally hazy approach would be to encourage player sharing or to have a set of store copies to browse.

Store owners also do not have a responsibility to zealously or actively enforce Games Workshop's intellectual property rights. It does not seem that wrong to me to assume that each and every printed copy of a rulebook in one's store is a legally-produced backup copy used to maintain the condition of a legally purchased copy of said work of art.

It also does not strike me as illegal to come right out and suggest that your customers bring backup copies of their rulebooks instead of the originals. Of course, I am not a lawyer and folks can do what they like.

 skrulnik wrote:

800 copies? Seriously?

I think the book was a stopgap, and they didn't expect it to sell well, or that piracy has taken its toll on the industry. Mongoose Publishing has stated that they only expect to sell a few hundred copies of an RPG release.

Enceladus wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Goliath wrote:
They aren't allowed to run sales due to the fact that they manufacture the products, and sell them, and sell them to other shops to be sold by them. If they ran a sale it would be disadvantaging the FLGSs, with nothing they could do, which is illegal due to competition laws. (I believe, I heard this from a lawyer who specifically worked in that area, but there is a possibility that it may be incorrect)

They used to have sales. From memory I've seen 4 or 5, just individual GW stores having sales.

I remember my local GW having a sale of sorts on bulk purchases of IG Tanks and Armageddon models like the Baneblade, Stompa, and assorted other stuff a couple of years back. The reason I remember it so well is because one of the more eccentric members of my local gaming group spent his entire wedding fund on tanks in one transaction - £7,500. It was such a large transaction that the till wouldn't accept it, as it thought it was a store stock request.

Needless to say his marriage never went ahead. He is now very much single.

Probably got the better end of that deal. Gaming gear is forever, women get old and dumpy.

 FacelessMage wrote:

 chris_valera wrote:


"since the store still needs to make a profit"

They NEED to make a profit? If they were really committed to their ideals, they'd be willing to break even, or even take a small los up-front to move a customer to another product line that has better margins over the long haul.

Yeah that is kinda the point of a store. To sell something and make a profit.

Why should they take time to sell things and break even or loose money? Do store owners have bottomless piles of money that they just want to give away?

This smacks of willful ignorance. Or sarcasm. I can't tell which.

The point of a business is to make money, but if they feel that strongly about it they'd be willing to "take one for the team" so to speak. I see a lot of huffing and puffing, but not of these retailers are cutting back on their orders, dropping GW, or doing anything that would cause GW any concern. They're not willing to break even on the GW for WM trade, they even insist on a profit on that. They won't even do a break-even trade, which, if you though GW was so evil, you would do

It's like all the people that huff and puff about politics, but can't take the time to vote, or even to make time (money) for it.

If they can't take the pain of a small loss in the short-term (which could be argued is a loss leader anyway) to make more money in the long run, or just to send a message, then what good are these complaints.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.

 BarBoBot wrote:
I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.

Please show where anyone has said "sell everything at a loss"

Loss Leaders are a real thing - consoles are a perfect example.

Why should they take time to sell things and break even or loose money

I believe that should be "lose money". Loose is something else entirely. If you have any loose money please send it my way.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.

Please show where anyone has said "sell everything at a loss"

Loss Leaders are a real thing - consoles are a perfect example.

You quoted what I said, then managed to somehow misquote me in your post.

Someone else put forth the notion that if retailers really cared they would sell items at a loss and hope it turns into repeat business. Small brick and mortar stores are not console makers. They don't have millions to risk. Get some perspective

 BarBoBot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.

Please show where anyone has said "sell everything at a loss"

Loss Leaders are a real thing - consoles are a perfect example.

You quoted what I said, then managed to somehow misquote me in your post.

Someone else put forth the notion that if retailers really cared they would sell items at a loss and hope it turns into repeat business. Small brick and mortar stores are not console makers. They don't have millions to risk. Get some perspective

I have some perspective. Small B&Ms can gain a significant amount from loss leaders. My old FLGS sold all rulebooks at cost or below (if allowed to by contract) because he made a significant amount of money on the minis.
He went out of business because his partner stole a few hundred grand from the business, not because the loss leaders meant he lost money.

Oh? I'm surprised he didn't just start up another or heck even a chain if his business plan was soooo lucrative lol

I remember people posting theories about these tactics in the past. GW basically plans to be the only seller of their products making them 'exclusive'. Especially when they say much of their profit are the first time buyers. Who and when you play with is your problem the way they see it after little jimmy buys his battleforce.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Oh? I'm surprised he didn't just start up another or heck even a chain if his business plan was soooo lucrative lol

Being a hundred grand or so in debt causes problems with that. Plus all the legal issues that went along with it.

 BarBoBot wrote:
I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.

Depends on how deep your convictions are. Democrats stood in line for hours and got a new President. Republicans stood in line for hours, and all they got was a gakky chicken sandwich.

Retailers wanna complain about GW, but what, really, are they going to do about it? Skip next week's order. Drop the line? Offer GW for PP stuff at a break even price? Offer GW for PP stuff at a loss leader price, knowing you'll make it back in the long run?

They're doing none of that.

It's just a bunch of internet whining and tryiong to make a profit by trading GW for PP at a profit. If they were really so hurt, if they really cared so much, they'd do it at a break-even point, (and yes, maybe even at a loss) skip next month's GW order, or drop GW entirely.

We're seeing none of that, making this just so much hot air.

 BarBoBot wrote:

Someone else put forth the notion that if retailers really cared they would sell items at a loss and hope it turns into repeat business. Small brick and mortar stores are not console makers. They don't have millions to risk. Get some perspective

Ahh, but that's the question - how much are you willing to risk? Writing a ranting screed on the internet takes nothing but time, offering a trade in-program is time-intensive, but offering such a program at a break even or even a loss leader price? That would truly show your displeasure with GW. It may not even be a loss, it could be a loss leader as people switch to PP, which may have better margins.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

When I had a retail store, there was no capital for "loss leaders". That was completely out of our league.

Not all ideas are options.

Exactly moopy. Uninformed people see these things through rose colored glasses. They think running a business is simple, and that all business owners are greedy. Reality is that small shops are not making tons of money... In fact it's usually other things (Mtg) that make them enough money to stay in business.

Implying that they don't care unless they sell you items at cost or at a loss is moronic.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Exactly moopy. Uninformed people see these things through rose colored glasses. They think running a business is simple, and that all business owners are greedy. Reality is that small shops are not making tons of money... In fact it's usually other things (Mtg) that make them enough money to stay in business.

Implying that they don't care unless they sell you items at cost or at a loss is moronic.

QFT.

Running a business right now is not easy. Most of us are hoping just to ride out the bad economy. Some of us are thriving, most aren't. Many are going away.

If find it so ironic. A couple retailers react strongly to something, and lots of gamers go on and on about how unprofessional they are, etc. The same gamers will rant for 10 pages about a minor rules change.

Many of us can't just drop GW. It's an important part of our business. At the same time, we are watching the company that we used to have a decent relationship with, take many steps to hurt our sales, and steal the business we built up.
If someone of us get dramatic and take a few steps you feel are "unprofessional", remember that this is our livlihood we are talking about. Stores are on a pretty thin profit margin. Many of us take things seriously and are very worried about what else GW is going to do in the future. Just sitting and taking it won't change their minds. Maybe enough outcry will get their attention.

I yelled and screamed and worked with them for years. Really used to love the company. Now I'm just tired and don't care anymore. I'm glad that other stores are willing to fight with them. Death from the Skies was the thing that finally made me sit back and decide that Homer Simpson is right. "Why try?"

 BarBoBot wrote:
Exactly moopy. Uninformed people see these things through rose colored glasses. They think running a business is simple, and that all business owners are greedy. Reality is that small shops are not making tons of money... In fact it's usually other things (Mtg) that make them enough money to stay in business.

Implying that they don't care unless they sell you items at cost or at a loss is moronic.

FYI, I wasn't trying to imply that. Your post seemed to say that that sort of thing could never happen, when it actually happens quite often.
I'm not trying to be combative, I was just pointing that out.

 BarBoBot wrote:
I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.

Dark Vengeance is sold at a loss...

Stores, not companies Tednugent. And there is no indication that DV is sold at a loss.

 TedNugent wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.

Dark Vengeance is sold at a loss...

Explain your theory on that one.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.

Dark Vengeance is sold at a loss...

Explain your theory on that one.

Dibs on "a GW red shirt told me!".

Target and Walmart can afford loss leaders, but I assure you that your FLGS is not in any position to "break even" on anything, or sell at a loss. As a brick & mortar game store owner myself, I promise you there is a magic percentage (let's call it 45%) and if I'm not averaging that much profit with respect to my sales, I'm not making ends meet. Most gaming products have wholesale discounts in the 40-50% range, so it's already an incredibly fine line to be walking. If I skew too far toward that 40%, it is literally the end of my store. Small business math is pretty unforgiving.

As for GW and this book, am I annoyed that I can't carry a seemingly important rulebook? Yes, I am. But quite frankly trying to work out why GW makes the decisions it does would drive me insane in a matter of minutes. I've never known a company to make such short-sighted and honestly just absurd "business" decisions, so I just don't sweat it. GW as a wholesaler is actually really great to work with. Their discount is only 45%, but they have no minimum order, they always cover the cost of shipping, they accept returns of obsolete products, and the last few reps I've had have been knowledgeable, friendly, and helpful, no matter the circumstances. So, why worry about the lunatics who manage the company? They're not putting anyone out of business but themselves.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.

Dark Vengeance is sold at a loss...

Explain your theory on that one.

Only thing I can think of is that the multi-part kit versions of the plastic snap-fits in the box sell for more money individually. So it's a "loss" because it isn't quite as overvalued as their other ridiculously-overvalued products I suppose?

 TedNugent wrote:

Dark Vengeance is sold at a loss...

Complete and utter BS!

DV is one of their more profitable items. It sells like hot cakes, sure for only four years, but it is still way more then the production and development costs of the whole boxed set. If you think that only a few Dark Angel and Chaos Space Marines players are interested then your ignoring the secondary market completely, just about every 40k player wants that little rules booklet, so some of us buy a lot more then one DV boxed set and sell off the rest they don't use. The same think happened with the Assault on Black Reach starter, bought between 50-100 in four years and sold off the stuff I didn't need/want. It makes a lot of folks very happy, cheap Cultists or Chosen for those established CSM players, cheap Terminators or Tactical Squads for those new DA players that are just starting. And cheap rulebooks for those folks playing other armies...

Cergorach wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

Dark Vengeance is sold at a loss...

Complete and utter BS!

DV is one of their more profitable items. It sells like hot cakes, sure for only four years, but it is still way more then the production and development costs of the whole boxed set. If you think that only a few Dark Angel and Chaos Space Marines players are interested then your ignoring the secondary market completely, just about every 40k player wants that little rules booklet, so some of us buy a lot more then one DV boxed set and sell off the rest they don't use. The same think happened with the Assault on Black Reach starter, bought between 50-100 in four years and sold off the stuff I didn't need/want. It makes a lot of folks very happy, cheap Cultists or Chosen for those established CSM players, cheap Terminators or Tactical Squads for those new DA players that are just starting. And cheap rulebooks for those folks playing other armies...

QFT. Everyone wants that little book. And the second hand market for the models inside is astonishing.

-Shrike- wrote:

QFT. Everyone wants that little book. And the second hand market for the models inside is astonishing.

Thats because everybody waits for the minis to drop onto ebay instead of ordering direct!

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:

QFT. Everyone wants that little book. And the second hand market for the models inside is astonishing.

Thats because everybody waits for the minis to drop onto ebay instead of ordering direct!

Um, where exactly do you think those models on eBay come from?

The sky!!!