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When has GW ever been accused of understanding their customer base?

Yes right. .. in practical terms its not really any different from them not being allowed to stock it, the effect is the same.

You would have to have thought that this release would have been really popular - there must be loads of people who have the fliers but missed the WD, and haven't got the technical savvy to look under some rocks online. Many more still who might otherwise have bought the model, but couldn't find the rules for it.

What would have been the problem with printing enough to satisfy demand at both the GW stores and FLGS stockists?

I think both the issues relating to the OP's post, and Mikhalia's comments, show that the independent retailers aren't really that enamoured with GW right now (to put it mildly! - the OP reads to me like someone who is angry, not just upset). Do GW not realise that these FLGS owners and staff are in many cases a useful addition to their own stores in bringing people into the GW fold? And following on from this, and other issues over the past couple of years (tournament support, Finecast returns etc.) those shop staff are less likely than ever to be promoting GW products?

The whole thing just seems completely nonsensical to me, and I can't see who benefits from it; the stores, the customers, GW themselves.

 derek wrote:

 pretre wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Yep and they were roundly shouted down.

That theory also explains part of why it sold out so fast.

I'm not sure why they could have thought that. They're adding a model (which they have already released) to their most popular range, for their most popular game. Just a basic understanding of what they sell should have told them that it would be a big seller to all the Space Marine players that have been wanting an excuse to buy a Stormraven/use the one they already bought.

You and your logic...

I officially take my leave from this thread!

My FLGS owner said he was going to contact his rep and if the book isn't going to be available through trade sales he has a plan.

He'll stop stocking flyers.

The store doesn't stock much GW stuff now anyway, although the owner clearly wants to sell more GW product and has been doing so for 25 years. He's seen the ups and downs of GW Trade Sales behavior in the past and isn't surprised they'd do something like this with the flyer book. Although he had thought they had learned their lesson by now.

Oh, and he said ordering direct only items is at apparently a 20% discount not the normal 45%. Also, unlike his trade account which has a nice line of credit and shipping is free he has to pay up front for the product and shipping for direct only items. He said "at 20% I'm loosing money so they're effectively telling me I can't order that product."

I think that GW is doing this so they can test the waters with exspansion books. Because this one for flyers is doing so well I expect one for tanks (armoured strike for example) or infantry (Flesh and blood) will soon be in the pipeline. By doing this GW can make people buy several books instead of just one codex. Expansion sets are a common thing, a codex is a sort of expansion.

This means new models etc will be in these expansions. Fantasy isn't safe either. Throw about three or more magic items at each race. A few new spells or alternate lore attributes and you have an expansion. Just need a name a cover art and a few hours to spare writing in some fluff about the Empire fighting someone. Imagine storm of magic all slimed down without so many uber spells.

People will buy these books to get access to the new rules etc. This will give them a potential advantage over their opponents. This means sales so there will be more of these things in future, alot more considering how much they have made off of this one book already.

The age of expansion books has begun...... . . . .

Nevermind.

@leech I can only see them doing that if they keep the extended gaps between codex's/army books however the current feeling seems to be they are trying to narrow the gaps between updates.

However if they do move to this as a sales model I believe the age if expansions will quickly become the age of exodus.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@leech I can only see them doing that if they keep the extended gaps between codex's/army books however the current feeling seems to be they are trying to narrow the gaps between updates.

However if they do move to this as a sales model I believe the age if expansions will quickly become the age of exodus.

You are right, there is no certainty they will do this.

However I do remember in 2nd edition 40K the dark millenium expansion. It had all the rules for psykers and tanks etc.

 Leech wrote:
You are right, there is no certainty they will do this.

However I do remember in 2nd edition 40K the dark millenium expansion. It had all the rules for psykers and tanks etc.

Oh come on. That's the closest example you could think of for expansions?

Planetstrike? Spearhead? Cities of Death? Chapter Approved? They've certainly put out a number of 'expansions' over time since Dark Millenium.

 pretre wrote:

 Leech wrote:
You are right, there is no certainty they will do this.

However I do remember in 2nd edition 40K the dark millenium expansion. It had all the rules for psykers and tanks etc.

Oh come on. That's the closest example you could think of for expansions?

Planetstrike? Spearhead? Cities of Death? Chapter Approved? They've certainly put out a number of 'expansions' over time since Dark Millenium.

I'm sorry, I was not clear. What I mean is that Dark millenium had essential rules in it. Cites of death, planet strike etc are just add-ons and need an opponent to agree to them. This flyer stuff does not (though flyers shgould require opponent's concent).

 Leech wrote:
I think that GW is doing this so they can test the waters with exspansion books. Because this one for flyers is doing so well I expect one for tanks (armoured strike for example) or infantry (Flesh and blood) will soon be in the pipeline. By doing this GW can make people buy several books instead of just one codex. Expansion sets are a common thing, a codex is a sort of expansion.

This means new models etc will be in these expansions. Fantasy isn't safe either. Throw about three or more magic items at each race. A few new spells or alternate lore attributes and you have an expansion. Just need a name a cover art and a few hours to spare writing in some fluff about the Empire fighting someone. Imagine storm of magic all slimed down without so many uber spells.

People will buy these books to get access to the new rules etc. This will give them a potential advantage over their opponents. This means sales so there will be more of these things in future, alot more considering how much they have made off of this one book already.

The age of expansion books has begun...... . . . .

As a general idea, expansion books could be great, BUT...

The idea of having books that add stuff to each army at the same time is perhaps the only was to have a balanced rule set, which is why companies like Privateer Press and CB do it. The problem is that both of these companies started off with a balanced rule set to start and each expansion includes additions for each faction.

40k isn't balanced, and DftS doesn't include material for each faction. Slapping expansion books on top of a rotating schedule of Codex releases looks like a way to get the worst of both worlds: large disparities between the suitability of individual armies, and expansions that are only useful for some armies.

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Dreadfleet flopping was 100% GW's fault. They released a brand-new game with 1 week notice to their customer base, and did nothing to promote it even after release other than a couple of small articles in WD and on their blog.

Find me any other company that does this and succeeds.

I need..no...I DEMAND an expansion book for Black Templar veteran sergeants. With so much variety and versatility in the roles that they fill, I want to see this explored fully.

Imagine that, a retail company doesn't advertise its product and no one buys it...

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Yup, releasing new stuff is a risky business, and GW should be commended for playing it safe.

If only there were some sort of worldwide communications network that that companies could use to let potential customers know about products that they had currently in development. They could create some sort of 'page' showing previews, and getting feedback on that product, and could even take early pre-release orders so they would know in advance what sort of interest there was in the product.


Alas, such technology is clearly just the stuff of scifi theatre.

 insaniak wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Yup, releasing new stuff is a risky business, and GW should be commended for playing it safe.

If only there were some sort of worldwide communications network that that companies could use to let potential customers know about products that they had currently in development. They could create some sort of 'page' showing previews, and getting feedback on that product, and could even take early pre-release orders so they would know in advance what sort of interest there was in the product.


Alas, such technology is clearly just the stuff of scifi theatre.

What you speak of is clearly witchcraft and heresy.

 insaniak wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Yup, releasing new stuff is a risky business, and GW should be commended for playing it safe.

If only there were some sort of worldwide communications network that that companies could use to let potential customers know about products that they had currently in development. They could create some sort of 'page' showing previews, and getting feedback on that product, and could even take early pre-release orders so they would know in advance what sort of interest there was in the product.


Alas, such technology is clearly just the stuff of scifi theatre.

I see what you did there.

I'm only on page 4, so I apologize if this has been covered.

The local GW here is closing it's doors by the end of the month. I don't live in some small out of the way town or anything, I'm in freaking Ottawa, Ontario. People here are only going to have the online route or their FLGS to purchase models. It seems to me that GW would want to have a good relationship with owners to help sell their product in locations where they don't have a store . . .

Revelation just hit me...

GW runs themselves much like the Emporium of Mankind... shunning technology and all.

Did you intentionally type Emporium or did you mess up Imperium and it autocorrected to the wrong word? Emporium works well though, it's funny.

 Bylak wrote:
I'm only on page 4, so I apologize if this has been covered.

The local GW here is closing it's doors by the end of the month. I don't live in some small out of the way town or anything, I'm in freaking Ottawa, Ontario. People here are only going to have the online route or their FLGS to purchase models. It seems to me that GW would want to have a good relationship with owners to help sell their product in locations where they don't have a store . . .

GW's answer is the bottom line of the level of profitability that it has to show it's shareholders. The Alamo Store is a prime example of a store that was profitable store in a incredibly wealthy area, but was not profitable enough to its current business model. I fully believe that GW will get more and more product online only that you can order from its GW one man store and/or from home. The increase of profits removing the retailer equation all together from their current revenue streamlining process is a lot.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 Bylak wrote:
I'm only on page 4, so I apologize if this has been covered.

The local GW here is closing it's doors by the end of the month. I don't live in some small out of the way town or anything, I'm in freaking Ottawa, Ontario. People here are only going to have the online route or their FLGS to purchase models. It seems to me that GW would want to have a good relationship with owners to help sell their product in locations where they don't have a store . . .

GW's answer is the bottom line of the level of profitability that it has to show it's shareholders. The Alamo Store is a prime example of a store that was profitable store in a incredibly wealthy area, but was not profitable enough to its current business model. I fully believe that GW will get more and more product online only that you can order from its GW one man store and/or from home. The increase of profits removing the retailer equation all together from their current revenue streamlining process is a lot.

I guess to go along with this line of thought (and I apologize in advance because this post is really going to read like a PP vs. GW argument) I look at GW and I see a company that's rolling back it's support for the community, I don't see a ton of support for local tournaments, I don't seem to get a lot of news. I then look to PP and I see a company that seems to actively engage the community, releases new free content on a fairly regular basis for it's customers, has some pretty sweet league and tournament support. My question here is outside of some of the major tournaments does GW actually offer a lot of these services to it's gaming community that PP offers? The reason why I ask is because to me right now it looks like the only thing that GW really has going for them in a community outreach sense is it's brick and mortar stores. If it plans to ramp those down without increasing it's presence in the community in other ways how does it plan on surviving? I totally agree that they would see short term gains with the removal of the upkeep of it's brick and mortar stores, but like another poster in the thread mentioned earlier what happens to them when they become more of a competitor with LGS as opposed to supplier? If there's no stores to stock their products other than LGS and they have no outreach or advertisements other than White Dwarf and online announcements a week in advance of releases how can it work?

I really do feel like I'm missing something here. Like, that their community support has to be better than I think it is or more behind the scenes or something. I know for the longest time the biggest thing GW had going for them was that they were essentially one of the only miniature games in town but that is nowhere near the reality of the gaming world anymore. Is it that mindset that still drives them now? (joking) Do they think they're banks in America and that they're too big to fail or something? (/joking)

 Bylak wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 Bylak wrote:
I'm only on page 4, so I apologize if this has been covered.

The local GW here is closing it's doors by the end of the month. I don't live in some small out of the way town or anything, I'm in freaking Ottawa, Ontario. People here are only going to have the online route or their FLGS to purchase models. It seems to me that GW would want to have a good relationship with owners to help sell their product in locations where they don't have a store . . .

GW's answer is the bottom line of the level of profitability that it has to show it's shareholders. The Alamo Store is a prime example of a store that was profitable store in a incredibly wealthy area, but was not profitable enough to its current business model. I fully believe that GW will get more and more product online only that you can order from its GW one man store and/or from home. The increase of profits removing the retailer equation all together from their current revenue streamlining process is a lot.

I guess to go along with this line of thought (and I apologize in advance because this post is really going to read like a PP vs. GW argument) I look at GW and I see a company that's rolling back it's support for the community, I don't see a ton of support for local tournaments, I don't seem to get a lot of news. I then look to PP and I see a company that seems to actively engage the community, releases new free content on a fairly regular basis for it's customers, has some pretty sweet league and tournament support. My question here is outside of some of the major tournaments does GW actually offer a lot of these services to it's gaming community that PP offers? The reason why I ask is because to me right now it looks like the only thing that GW really has going for them in a community outreach sense is it's brick and mortar stores. If it plans to ramp those down without increasing it's presence in the community in other ways how does it plan on surviving? I totally agree that they would see short term gains with the removal of the upkeep of it's brick and mortar stores, but like another poster in the thread mentioned earlier what happens to them when they become more of a competitor with LGS as opposed to supplier? If there's no stores to stock their products other than LGS and they have no outreach or advertisements other than White Dwarf and online announcements a week in advance of releases how can it work?

I really do feel like I'm missing something here. Like, that their community support has to be better than I think it is or more behind the scenes or something. I know for the longest time the biggest thing GW had going for them was that they were essentially one of the only miniature games in town but that is nowhere near the reality of the gaming world anymore. Is it that mindset that still drives them now? (joking) Do they think they're banks in America and that they're too big to fail or something? (/joking)

Nope, that is exactly GWs problem right now. They are treating their business like a toy company, they churn out models and we buy them. The end. There is nothing else to the hobby in the eyes of their management.


@Adam LongWalker, GW very clearly want to cut out FLGS. They can sell models to them for $25 or simply replace them with a GW store and sell boxes for $50. Pretty simple choice in their eyes, what they don't understand is that the rest of the world is bigger than the UK, where supposedly every town has a GW store. Death from the Skies is just another step towards cutting out the middle man they see as stealing their profit (don't believe me and think that it's just cos they didn't think it would sell well, the new edge paints are direct order only too). Kirby made a statement in the last financial report about wanting to open 800 more shops in the US because for some reason they seem to think the UK business model will work there. They want all FLGS in the US that are selling GW products to be GW stores as that way they can control every every step of the process from manufacturing the models to selling them direct to you, and therefore that entire $50 note you hand them for a model that costs $3 to produce, pack and ship is going strait in their pocket and they don't have to share with other stores. [/rant]

While not the only game in town now, GW still has the lion's share of the market. Probably less today than ever before, but still more than most everyone else. The problem, such as it is, is that GW is a public company. They aren't playing the same game as other companies in the market (who if memory serves are almost all private) because they are not following the logical course of action for a business to make as much money as possible. Their goal is to make this quarter look like the same quarter last year plus a bit of growth, because that's what their owners want to see. Is it stupid and unsustainable to engage in that type of behavior in the long run? Sure, but one need only look at what happened to the world in 2008 to see how short-sighted the market and its priorities can be.

Death From the Skies is not, as some people have said, an essential rulebook in the long-term. Today it might be, but on the whole it's a stop-gap and cash grab by GW. As those army books get updated to include flyers the need for DftS drops to nearly nothing, and Space Marines and Orks seemingly get an update every edition (Orks missed 5th meaning they're likely on the radar and Marines, well, do you really think they won't get a 6th edition codex?). Black Templars are the only ones that seem to be on the "unlikely to see an updated book" list.

It could very well be the case that in a year's time GW expects for there to be no further need for DftS and will stop offering it for sale at all. Pure speculation, of course, since GW doesn't talk about anything more than a week in advance, but through this lens at least it's just trying to grab all the money they can while they can instead of a pre-cursor to a war on retailers. Given the opening paragraph it could be that numbers were flagging from poor sales and this was a fast way to snag some quick revenue. Sharing that revenue, at least initially, would defeat the goal of appeasing the fund managers. This would also explain the lack of a simple PDF or unit card which could have been done at any time for trivial cost; GW holding onto things it can put out on the (relative) cheap for quick cash infusions when a launch falls flat.

Back to the topic of poor GW/FLGS relations, the other events mikhala posts about are more ominous, and I can understand how in totality they demand that something be done. I just wonder if the leadership of GW is so oblivious to that sum of anti-retailer actions they've been taking and/or how bad some of their trade reps are that the real reason for the backlash to DftS eludes them and they think that retailers are, to use the phrase of some here, just being spoiled brats. After their behavior over the past few years it honestly wouldn't surprise me.

 Xzerios wrote:
Revelation just hit me...

GW runs themselves much like the Emporium of Mankind... shunning technology and all.

There was a pretty good article I read on this that says the same thing... http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/is-imperium-metaphor-for-games-workshop.html

I'm not sure how a company with an annual revenue in excess of 100 million pounds would consider selling 800 copies of a book to be a "cash grab."

I think it is reasonable to infer that GW's corporate management has felt embattled in the marketplace for going on several years now and has been exploring ways in which to hurt and attack what they irrationally view as competitors.

GW is not confident enough to wage war with the weapons of product quality, competitive pricing, and customer loyalty. Instead,GW's management has sought to use spurious legal means and market shenanigans to dictate their terms to the market. GW is acting like its market share is a foregone conclusion and attempting to use its relative size and bulk to dominate the market. The fallacy is that GW's aggressiveness is due to the contraction of this market share, and GW's actions have done little more than hasten the contraction.

@Adam LongWalker, GW very clearly want to cut out FLGS. They can sell models to them for $25 or simply replace them with a GW store and sell boxes for $50. Pretty simple choice in their eyes, what they don't understand is that the rest of the world is bigger than the UK, where supposedly every town has a GW store. Death from the Skies is just another step towards cutting out the middle man they see as stealing their profit (don't believe me and think that it's just cos they didn't think it would sell well, the new edge paints are direct order only too). Kirby made a statement in the last financial report about wanting to open 800 more shops in the US because for some reason they seem to think the UK business model will work there. They want all FLGS in the US that are selling GW products to be GW stores as that way they can control every every step of the process from manufacturing the models to selling them direct to you, and therefore that entire $50 note you hand them for a model that costs $3 to produce, pack and ship is going strait in their pocket and they don't have to share with other stores. [/rant]

It's hard to believe that a company or anyone in GW don't understand the north american market or how business work here. If they think the UK business model will work here, they must fire some people because they really suck at there job.

hellpato wrote:

It's hard to believe that a company or anyone in GW don't understand the north american market or how business work here. If they think the UK business model will work here, they must fire some people because they really suck at there job.

Kirby.

Talk to Indy stores about their relationship with GW prior to his 'intervention', then talk to them about their current relationship with GW, talk about the management he beheaded and the relocation of GW's NA HQ on his extended tour of the colonies.

His company, his vision, his abject fethwit mission.

Read his little red book. Then despair of a modern company that holds this Gordon Gekko inspired drivel as gospel...

There's your spider in the web, there's the man single-handedly steering the leviathan on it's slow, laborious journey to extinction, after he's squeezed and squeezed it of cash for his retirement.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


There's your spider in the web, there's the man single-handedly steering the leviathan on it's slow, laborious journey to extinction, after he's squeezed and squeezed it of cash for his retirement.

I have wondered if the inevitable goal was to drive the company into the arms of a much larger manufacturer like Hasbro.

Given the recent trend of consolidation long standing brands and franchises under fewer and fewer mega-media corporations, it is only a matter of time...

Personal wealth is only his endgame; force GW to embrace and be subsumed by a much larger entity the ultimate achievement.

 Pacific wrote:

 Xzerios wrote:
Revelation just hit me...

GW runs themselves much like the Emporium of Mankind... shunning technology and all.

There was a pretty good article I read on this that says the same thing... http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/is-imperium-metaphor-for-games-workshop.html

That is a really good well and written article.