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 wuestenfux wrote:

 whigwam wrote:
Was it a Contemptor? Those gave my Necrons fits...Av13 with two TL/Intercepting/Skyfiring-Lascannons. Yeesh. I think there's an Assault Cannon option that is also pretty spooky-scary. Anyway, I'd be more worried about Guard Blobs and Sabre Defense Platforms.

Yeah, it was a Contemptor with an assault cannon. Short ranged and so rather easy to avoid with Scythes. At the end, dead by stripping off hull points via tesla. As far as I remember AV 13 at the front, but AV 12 on the sides.

Yeah, for Crons the AssCantemptor is a lot more manageable than the LasCantemptor... I played against two of the latter at a recent tourney and it was very ugly. If your opponent places them well, you'll need two turns to get a side armor shot (good luck making it there)...and that's only if you're sending Scythes in opposite directions and neither gets shot down (since the damn things will just turn to face you if you're coming from one direction). Even those hard-to-get side armor shots are hardly a guarantee since it's still just S7 vs AV12 (and you've got that 5++ to get through!).

I know Contemptors are pricey and they're not that scary to a lot of other armies out there, but they're only one example. That specific scenario and how it may/may not play out isn't really that important. The larger point is that everyone has motivation to deal with Necrons, but very few options with which to do it. FW gives people some pretty good options, and that should give Necron players pause.

Nightwing Interceptor ...


Evade + Shrouded + Agile for a 2+ Cover save, BS4, 2 Shuriken Cannons and 2 Bright Lances, Supersonic and Vector Dancer - this with interceptor and skyfire.

145 points ... and that is hardly overcosted ...

It's in the name but I don't think it has interceptor?

You are correct - it had interceptor and no longer does.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I played in a doubles tournament last weekend with my bother. It was 1850 split (925 each) sharing a FOC. We assumed it would be casual. He took nids, one tervy, flyrant, mawloc only 2 HG... I took SW with no RP and a TWC lord and one unit of GH lol.... I am still laughing at the fact that despite our none optimal lists we placed 2nd and wen undefeated, 2 massacres and a major despite facing flyers and there being FW which none of us \know a thing about.

We faced mechaguard with a vedatta and vulture paired with DA game one and another guard DA duo game two with yet another vulture and an avenger, game three was dual CSM with a helturkey lol!!! Basically my point is that fliers are not necessary to win games (though they do make it tough lol).

By the way flyrant failed first ground check each game and died turn 1 games 1 and 3.... Game 2 he died turn two but he evaded the pesky avangers 6 of 8 wounds and then shot it down somehow lol.

BTW that avenger is less then a helturkey and has 2 auto canons, 2 las canons and a 6 or 7 shot S7 ap3 avenger bolst canon lol.... FW flyers are a bit under costed imo. It will be too soon before I face another vulture.

Good luck! and I hope you take lots of photos! Players too if they are willing

Congrats. You can definitely still win playing against flyers and without using any flyers of your own. I haven't lost many games even to double-heldrakes, triple-vendettas or triple-ravens even with my non-flyer armies.

As to date, the only forgeworld units that I've played against are Mortis Contemptor dreads (in a 2v2, we won) and against a triple-Vulture IG list with my space wolves (l lost). Honestly, I don't think it's anything my armies can't handle but we will see.

 whigwam wrote:
Right now, every general should expect (and prepare) to face Necrons in a tournament. They are currently the "army to beat," and you're either playing with them or against them. Scythewing remains a powerful build despite that fact, because in standard 40k it still has very few hard counters. The inclusion of FW changes things significantly. Players expecting to face Necrons (that is, everybody) now have good options to take apart a Flyer-based army with ease. Not to sell the Dlord/Wraith-stars short, but I think your army will be in a lot of trouble if you come up against anyone who can quickly take out three Night Scythes. Of course that's not going to be every army...it might not even be half, or a quarter, but in a GT one ugly loss can easily take you out of the running.

Nids have the potential to suffer from a bad matchup as well, but you also don't have people specifically building their lists to beat Nids. You will not be so lucky with Crons. As you said, Nids have been hugely underestimated for awhile now. I'm surprised more people haven't caught on. Just as well, since (as you also said), this will only work to your advantage.

Long story short: people are gunning for Necrons at every event, but at BAO they'll really have the tools to do it. If you feel confident in your Tyranids, I feel they will absolutely be a stronger choice.

Hi whigwam,

I'm excited to be meeting a lot of dakkalite there. Maybe we'll get a game in? Who knows. Have you decided on what you will be taking? You've got some strong armies, whether it be your crons or your daemons.

Yeah, there's going to be a lot of armies gunning for the crons. However, how effective those FW units remains to be seen. Necron resiliency may surprise some....or they may just crash and burn. In any case, with FW there, it's anyone's game. There is no sure thing. But no matter what, it's looking like it's going to be my bugs.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I wouldn't be too worried about FW units since they are rather expensive for what you get. Recently, I faced a FW Dread in a GK army vs my Wraithwing in an RTT. Scary stats but not so scary at the battle field.

There's going to be people there that will spend the money on those FW so I wouldn't under-estimate them. However, what can you do about it? You just have to keep on keeping on, no matter what you come up against, FW or not. Fortunately, in a balanced TAC list, FW shouldn't be any more scary then, say, heldrakes or vendettas or what-have-you. Just bring it on!

 whigwam wrote:
Was it a Contemptor? Those gave my Necrons fits...Av13 with two TL/Intercepting/Skyfiring-Lascannons. Yeesh. I think there's an Assault Cannon option that is also pretty spooky-scary. Anyway, I'd be more worried about Guard Blobs and Sabre Defense Platforms.

Necrons shouldn't be too concerned about the contemptors. Heck, I'm not. Their range is just too short (except for the cyclones) and the wraiths will really put the pressure on them.

I'd definitely be more concerned with the blob squad or sabre platforms.

 felixcat wrote:
Nightwing Interceptor ...


Evade + Shrouded + Agile for a 2+ Cover save, BS4, 2 Shuriken Cannons and 2 Bright Lances, Supersonic and Vector Dancer - this with interceptor and skyfire.

145 points ... and that is hardly overcosted ...

Ouch! Well, you know what I think....just bring it!

If you really want to win the GT I would take your Necrons... They match up well against everything. Tyranids on the other hand are very dependent on their psychic powers which are random... You'll probably start off well but over the course of the tournament there is greater chance when facing another top gamer they could have something that shuts down your psychic powers (e.g., Rune Staff, Farseer, etc.), leaving you in the proverbial learch... Heck, it could even happen on day one.

I'd rate your Tyranid list as B/B- in the assault phase... They are okay but I think you're relying mostly on sheer numbers. Flyrants can be a pushover in close combat if they don't roll the right psychic powers. If you come against army such as a Purifier heavy list they can burninate right through your gants and gargoyles. It seems like the assault phase is not as powerful in sixth edition though so probably this is not as big a factor.

Finally if you take Tyranids this is your prime opportunity to show everyone the money. You can still walk away número uno but its just less likely to happen. You simply have to decide what's most important to you.

Winning is not my top-most priority. I want to win, however, I want to challenge myself also. I think both armies have the potential and ability to win. Tyranids, however, will probably be the more challenging army to play and it seems like most people here can agree on that.

Yeah, if you're talking about pure assault without relying on other factors, then I'd say they are a B/B- at most. However, I also factor in their resiliency in the the Assault phase. You don't necessarily have to be good in assault to be able to handle enemy assault units. Elements such as tarpitting units, screening units, non-assaultable units (i.e. troops in flyers) and ultra-resilient units to me factors into an army's capabilities in the Assault phase. So if you factor in ultra-resilient MC's, tarpitting gribblies and free screening units, the combination of assault and "anti-assault" units is why I give tyranids a higher grade than their actual pure assault capabilities.

jy2 wrote:Hi whigwam,

I'm excited to be meeting a lot of dakkalite there. Maybe we'll get a game in? Who knows. Have you decided on what you will be taking? You've got some strong armies, whether it be your crons or your daemons.

Well, my Necrons and/or Necrorks are not travel-ready (or fully painted) at the moment, so it's going to be Daemons. Some tweaks from my list at FoB, except now featuring Fiends and a Herald of Nurgle (!!!). I hope we get a game in, but if you're bringing bugs I think I'd be just as happy to miss the opportunity... Tyranids are a really tough matchup for my Daemons, so I will settle for just being able to say hello!

I play Grey Knights with Necron allies and of all the armies I've faced, 'Nids are the one's I've struggled to overcome most.

A skilled player commanding a well built 'Nid army is a formidable opponent. I say since you've already proven yourself as a top Necron general, see if you can take the swarm to victory. I'd love to see all of the haters and doubters eat their words when the Hive Mind claims it's first major 6th ed Tournament win.

Due to the overwhelming support of the viewers and my own own desire to challenge myself, I have decided on which I army I will be bringing....Space Marines!

No, just kidding. It's going to be my bugs - Hive Fleet Pandora. Here is what I can expect from them:


- Tyranids are going to be much more exhausting physically. There is a lot more models to move around and deal with.

- Tyranids are going to be much more exhausting mentally. With necrons, strategy is very easy - just go after the enemy and zoom towards the objectives in the end. Tyranids are much more taxing mentally when it comes to strategy. Yeah, you still basically go after the enemy, but due to their rather limited mobility, you need to take more into consideration the mission objectives and other factors. You also have to be more concerned with matchups than you do with the crons.

- Games will take longer. With necrons, games are relatively faster as most of your units start off in reserves. But with bugs, you will basically start most of your army on the table. And then, bugs fully utilize all 3 phases - Movement, Shooting and Assault. In addition, you have to take time for psychic powers and spawning. Overall, I expect more of my tyranid games to go the distance. It is also because of this why tyranids are more physically exhausting to play. We're not talking about 1 game here. We're talking about 7-8 games.

- It's going to be more challenging with tyranids. Due to their inherent weaknesses, they are more likely to encounter problematic matchups than the crons. Thus, they are more likely to struggle against certain builds than my necrons.

- On the flip side, opponents are more likely to have trouble with my tyranids as well. The competitive meta nowadays is flyers and most people are gearing their army up to be able to fight flyers. Psychic monstrous creatures and inexperience against them will throw some of these people off. I am literally banking on the element of surprise (more like unfamiliarity) to help me overcome some of these mismatches.

- Despite the taxing nature of tyranids in a GT, it is going to be oh-so-sweeeeet when I win with them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whigwam wrote:

jy2 wrote:Hi whigwam,

I'm excited to be meeting a lot of dakkalite there. Maybe we'll get a game in? Who knows. Have you decided on what you will be taking? You've got some strong armies, whether it be your crons or your daemons.

Well, my Necrons and/or Necrorks are not travel-ready (or fully painted) at the moment, so it's going to be Daemons. Some tweaks from my list at FoB, except now featuring Fiends and a Herald of Nurgle (!!!). I hope we get a game in, but if you're bringing bugs I think I'd be just as happy to miss the opportunity... Tyranids are a really tough matchup for my Daemons, so I will settle for just being able to say hello!

That's too bad. I'd sure like to beat.....uh, I mean, meet another GT winner.

Ha ha....I'm always the casual, competitive gamer. Yeah, both orks and necrons make good allies to any army. I myself was considering necrorks back before the CSM codex came out. And now, my necrorks are going to have to wait a little longer as I go back to my daemonic roots once the new Daemons codex comes out.

Herald of Nurgle? Wow, this I gotta see....

Enceladus wrote:
I play Grey Knights with Necron allies and of all the armies I've faced, 'Nids are the one's I've struggled to overcome most.

A skilled player commanding a well built 'Nid army is a formidable opponent. I say since you've already proven yourself as a top Necron general, see if you can take the swarm to victory. I'd love to see all of the haters and doubters eat their words when the Hive Mind claims it's first major 6th ed Tournament win.

Yeah, due to the lack of low-AP weaponry, necrons do have problems against the bugs. As a necron player, I also find tyranids (in particular, Janthkin's tyranids) to be such a tough fight.

And now with tyranid psychic powers, grey knights are much easier for tyranids to face compared to last edition (not that they are an easy army to beat, just a little easier than before). Grey knights can still hurt the bugs, but they are no longer the bad matchup that they used to be.

jy2 wrote:Herald of Nurgle? Wow, this I gotta see....

Don't mess with the Herald of Nurgle, he's a straight-up killer. Honestly, though, he has one very important job to do: hide in the corner and try not to give up Slay the Warlord. IME, he's a much safer bet than Kairos "Kill Me" Fateweaver.

Really glad you've decided to go with Tyranids... Now who should I bribe to make sure we don't get paired?

jy2 i am lookign forward to seeing your Nids at BAO! i was at the Golden Throne and sporting my DE. I will be sporting my DE w/ Eldar Allies at BAO.

Is it evil of me to vote for Nids and hope you bring them because I feel it will be an easier match up for me? LOL.. . Look forward to seeing you there!

 whigwam wrote:

jy2 wrote:Herald of Nurgle? Wow, this I gotta see....

Don't mess with the Herald of Nurgle, he's a straight-up killer. Honestly, though, he has one very important job to do: hide in the corner and try not to give up Slay the Warlord. IME, he's a much safer bet than Kairos "Kill Me" Fateweaver.

Really glad you've decided to go with Tyranids... Now who should I bribe to make sure we don't get paired?

Yeah, I figured that's what his role is for. But that's bad news for everyone else. Means they'll probably be seeing 27 screamers, 18 flamers and 6 fiends. Gulp!

BTW, did you see my battle report against daemons?

2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons

SCP Yeeman wrote:
jy2 i am lookign forward to seeing your Nids at BAO! i was at the Golden Throne and sporting my DE. I will be sporting my DE w/ Eldar Allies at BAO.

Is it evil of me to vote for Nids and hope you bring them because I feel it will be an easier match up for me? LOL.. . Look forward to seeing you there!

Deldar is another bad matchup for my bugs, but you know what? I relish the challenge.

I just played against Deldar recently with a seer council and beastpack dual-deathstars. They were both tough battles:

Game #2 - 1750 Rematch - Hive Fleet Pandora vs SonsofGrant's Double-Trouble Deer Council Deldar

Game #1 - It's showtime - SonsofGrant V.S JY2

Maybe I may have to bribe someone to make sure we don't get paired....


BTW, are you bringing the harliestar, seer council or something we haven't seen before?

i see my list as very TAC. It doesnt have any real hard counters i think besides Tau, but I think I can take down Tau if I play them. Nothing is over the top or anything you haven't seen. Most will see it as a weak list. But it has counters to everything and can go toe to toe I believe with anythign out there.

Ah, a synergistic TAC army....those are some of the most under-rated but dangerous lists of all, much like my bugs. I will be sure not to under-estimate your army if we do happen to play against each other.

Though I've got to warn you....flyrants with precision shots will make mincemeat out of that beastpack unless you can get Invisibility.

That would mean you have those Flyrants in the air to make Precision Shots! HA!

I would definately need to take those down relatively early to have a chance.

I look forward to the challenge and the game if we happen to meet up.

jy2 wrote:BTW, did you see my battle report against daemons?

2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons

Not until now. That was a stomach-churning read, akin to watching myself get punched in the nose. Really took me back to my last match against Tyranids, which ended in a win strictly because we were in a KP mission. Had it been objectives, table quarters, anything else, I would've been done for. The worst part was that, in the end, I had very little idea of how I could've done better. Wish I could say I've been practicing for that match-up, but I've encountered precisely 0 Tyranid players at the local tournaments I attend. Maybe I just need to start playing them myself so I can figure out the little buggers... OK, it's settled. Now I'm bringing Nids to BAO. Gotta go, will be busy painting tonight.

I'm going to vote nids as I'd rather play against that than the necron list, haha.

I voted number 1 for the poll. It'll happen! Of course, the Internet will revolt if Nids win a GT. I'd just love to see that though!

 whigwam wrote:

jy2 wrote:BTW, did you see my battle report against daemons?

2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons

Not until now. That was a stomach-churning read, akin to watching myself get punched in the nose. Really took me back to my last match against Tyranids, which ended in a win strictly because we were in a KP mission. Had it been objectives, table quarters, anything else, I would've been done for. The worst part was that, in the end, I had very little idea of how I could've done better. Wish I could say I've been practicing for that match-up, but I've encountered precisely 0 Tyranid players at the local tournaments I attend. Maybe I just need to start playing them myself so I can figure out the little buggers... OK, it's settled. Now I'm bringing Nids to BAO. Gotta go, will be busy painting tonight.

Wow, are you actually changing armies? Do you have enough time to get them ready? I would usually advice you (in general) to stick to your guns and trust your instincts. Use the army that you originally wanted to use. Don't change it up because you are worried about a particular matchup at this point (as long as your army is balanced).

Then again, the Hive Mind will welcome another Hive Mind. Human, space elf, greenskin or another bug - we don't discriminate....we eat them all. Nom nom nom.....

 Dok wrote:
I'm going to vote nids as I'd rather play against that than the necron list, haha.

Yeah, I'm sure most people will be happy that there's one less flyer army out there.

 jifel wrote:
I voted number 1 for the poll. It'll happen! Of course, the Internet will revolt if Nids win a GT. I'd just love to see that though!

It's a race between me, you and other young Hive Minds out there. I'm sure one day, one of us out there will win one of these GT's. We definitely stand a better chance now in 6th than we did back in 5th.

Besides, it's fun being a rebel.

I'm voting top 10. I honestly don't think matchups will be your biggest problem. Speed playing will be. Have you been practicing games under a strict time limit yet?

Just a few. Most of my games I've played at a more leisurely pace. I'm not too concerned though (unless I am playing another army like bugs, orks or IG). I think that I play at a decent pace.

I voted top 10. The odds are just crazy and the dice are fickle when talking about winning it all with 150 people. Not saying you can't do it because you list is awesome and you clearly know how to play it. Just saying the odds are stacked against everyone. But best of luck, I've enjoyed your batreps thoroughly and it's been a good glimpse into the hive mind.

Take it down Jy2!! I am in a GT in 3 weeks and bringing a similar list to yours (minus the biovores and adding devilgants in pods) I'd be happy to see your results!

Good lucky on number 1!!!

Yeah, all the best jy2, and good luck with your dice!

Top 10 easily. Good luck and I'll look forward to reading your reports!

May you roll Iron Arms a plenty and never forget an It-Will-Not-Die Roll! (a short Nid blessing passed down generation to generation)

Or FEAR or Hammer of Wrath or Blinding Spittle . Sometimes it would just be easier to play Space Puppies

 jy2 wrote:

 whigwam wrote:

jy2 wrote:BTW, did you see my battle report against daemons?

2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons

Not until now. That was a stomach-churning read, akin to watching myself get punched in the nose. Really took me back to my last match against Tyranids, which ended in a win strictly because we were in a KP mission. Had it been objectives, table quarters, anything else, I would've been done for. The worst part was that, in the end, I had very little idea of how I could've done better. Wish I could say I've been practicing for that match-up, but I've encountered precisely 0 Tyranid players at the local tournaments I attend. Maybe I just need to start playing them myself so I can figure out the little buggers... OK, it's settled. Now I'm bringing Nids to BAO. Gotta go, will be busy painting tonight.

Wow, are you actually changing armies? Do you have enough time to get them ready? I would usually advice you (in general) to stick to your guns and trust your instincts. Use the army that you originally wanted to use. Don't change it up because you are worried about a particular matchup at this point (as long as your army is balanced).

Then again, the Hive Mind will welcome another Hive Mind. Human, space elf, greenskin or another bug - we don't discriminate....we eat them all. Nom nom nom.....

Hahah, nah, I'll be sticking with Daemons. I've really wanted to pick up bugs since 6th, but that's an idle thought not yet come to fruition. Having just started on Orks a few months ago, working on three Blood Bowl teams-in-progress, and now with Daemons apparently turning horde...I'm thinking that's probably not going to happen any time soon! Despite a few bad matchups, I do feel really confident in my Daemons. I am expecting to take a little ribbing for using a defunct codex and my best case scenario is a kind-of-meaningless win, but hey, I've really got no choice at this point. Anyway, I've got to go get ready to get on a plane. See you soon!

Get the right powers and they are near unstoppable. Get the wrong ones and it will be an uphill battle. This army is more at the mercy of the dice than the crons. However, they are an underdog army and many people would like to see an underdog army try to take it.

This is the crux of the issue for me and summed up very well.
I think going into full blown, proper tournaments part of a good army build is trying to minimise the "luck and dice" factor as much as possible.
In every game/event one could be a stunning general and have great tactics but roll all ones and flunk out first game.
However, minimising this eventulity as much as possible is also a sign of a great general.
Hence, the fact that your Nid build relys on the luck of the dice with powers (to a greater or lesser degree), I would go with the Crons.

However a simple and open question:
Do you intend to win and get top spot or play a good tournament with a slightly less optimal army?
Latter= Nids
Former= Crons imo.

GL anyways, I'll be keeping a look out for the reps and result

Chancetragedy wrote:
I voted top 10. The odds are just crazy and the dice are fickle when talking about winning it all with 150 people. Not saying you can't do it because you list is awesome and you clearly know how to play it. Just saying the odds are stacked against everyone. But best of luck, I've enjoyed your batreps thoroughly and it's been a good glimpse into the hive mind.

Yeah, I know. It's not going to be easy. It's going to be damn tough actually, but I do feel that I have a shot realistically. Oh well, here's to hoping for the best .....<*starts praying to the Dice Gods*>

roxor08 wrote:
Take it down Jy2!! I am in a GT in 3 weeks and bringing a similar list to yours (minus the biovores and adding devilgants in pods) I'd be happy to see your results!

Good lucky on number 1!!!

Thanks! And good luck to you also. So that's 3 dakka bug players in 3 different GT's (me, you and Jifel so far). Alright, our chances of winning at least 1 GT has just tripled.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Yeah, all the best jy2, and good luck with your dice!

Thanks! Gonna need it!

Please, dice gods...at least let me get the psychic powers I that I want against the bad matchups.....

Siphen wrote:
Top 10 easily. Good luck and I'll look forward to reading your reports!

May you roll Iron Arms a plenty and never forget an It-Will-Not-Die Roll! (a short Nid blessing passed down generation to generation)

 wyomingfox wrote:
Or FEAR or Hammer of Wrath or Blinding Spittle . Sometimes it would just be easier to play Space Puppies

Thanks for the reminders guys. Better brush up on my rules again!

 whigwam wrote:

Hahah, nah, I'll be sticking with Daemons. I've really wanted to pick up bugs since 6th, but that's an idle thought not yet come to fruition. Having just started on Orks a few months ago, working on three Blood Bowl teams-in-progress, and now with Daemons apparently turning horde...I'm thinking that's probably not going to happen any time soon! Despite a few bad matchups, I do feel really confident in my Daemons. I am expecting to take a little ribbing for using a defunct codex and my best case scenario is a kind-of-meaningless win, but hey, I've really got no choice at this point. Anyway, I've got to go get ready to get on a plane. See you soon!

That's the spirit! Daemons are still tough, even for tyranids. If those tervigons run out early, it could be game over for the bugs.

Can't wait to pick up my copy of the new Daemon codex there as well! After this tourney, it's daemons once again for me (sorry, Grey Knights....you're just going to have to wait).

See ya!

 Ratius wrote:

Get the right powers and they are near unstoppable. Get the wrong ones and it will be an uphill battle. This army is more at the mercy of the dice than the crons. However, they are an underdog army and many people would like to see an underdog army try to take it.

This is the crux of the issue for me and summed up very well.
I think going into full blown, proper tournaments part of a good army build is trying to minimise the "luck and dice" factor as much as possible.
In every game/event one could be a stunning general and have great tactics but roll all ones and flunk out first game.
However, minimising this eventulity as much as possible is also a sign of a great general.
Hence, the fact that your Nid build relys on the luck of the dice with powers (to a greater or lesser degree), I would go with the Crons.

However a simple and open question:
Do you intend to win and get top spot or play a good tournament with a slightly less optimal army?
Latter= Nids
Former= Crons imo.

GL anyways, I'll be keeping a look out for the reps and result

Yeah, psychic powers definitely help in the matchups. However, bugs can still play through despite unfavorable powers. I've had a streak where I didn't get good powers for my flyrants for like 3-4 games. I believe I still won those. And then I believe there was a stretch where I didn't get Endurance for a few games. If you don't get the powers you want, then you're just going to have to improvise. It's far from an auto-loss.

I intend to win but with a more challenging army. I've already done so once with my crons. Now to try to do so with an army many would consider an underdog.